NBA 2019-2020 season thread

[NKY fan]

Middleton is good, but Hayward is clearly better - similar shooting % but much better shot creator and passer. The Js are about on middleton’s level, but freed up to do more things by the offense.

Hayward and Middleton have the same number of ASG under their belts. You also "conveniently" forgot to compare their defensive impact.

And you "conviently" forgot that all-star selections are a joke, especially in the East. Hayward's one selection in the stacked West is worth 5 selections in a conference where Kyle Korver was an all-star recently.

As far as defense is concerned, Middleton is better, sure. By a huge margin? Nah. If he was such a great defender, the Bucks would have probably beaten the Raptors last year.

So that means Hayward is clearly better than Middleton? Don't you think we are a little disrespectful to him here?

Do you think that Middleton could ever be a first option on a 50-win team in a tough conference? If the answer is no, than I would consider Hayward to be the clearly better player.

Are we comparing their best seasons ever? Are we projecting who is a better value going forward? Who is more available healthwise? What are we doing?
No matter how you slice and dice it Hayward will not be clearly better. He might be better in some regard but clearly? also if they both switch teams who will be clearly better?

[gift]

Middleton is good, but Hayward is clearly better - similar shooting % but much better shot creator and passer. The Js are about on middleton’s level, but freed up to do more things by the offense.

Hayward and Middleton have the same number of ASG under their belts. You also "conveniently" forgot to compare their defensive impact.

And you "conviently" forgot that all-star selections are a joke, especially in the East. Hayward's one selection in the stacked West is worth 5 selections in a conference where Kyle Korver was an all-star recently.

As far as defense is concerned, Middleton is better, sure. By a huge margin? Nah. If he was such a great defender, the Bucks would have probably beaten the Raptors last year.

So that means Hayward is clearly better than Middleton? Don't you think we are a little disrespectful to him here?

Do you think that Middleton could ever be a first option on a 50-win team in a tough conference? If the answer is no, than I would consider Hayward to be the clearly better player.

Are we comparing their best seasons ever? Are we projecting who is a better value going forward? Who is more available healthwise? What are we doing?
No matter how you slice and dice it Hayward will not be clearly better. He might be better in some regard but clearly? also if they both switch teams who will be clearly better?

I like Middleton more than most do (or seem to) and I still consider Hayward clearly better. Middleton just cannot do the same things that Hayward can in terms of playmaking and scoring at different levels, dealing with being a focal point of an offense etc. Any defensive difference is not much (if any). I think Middleton is longer, but I don't see him as a stopper at all.

It wasn't long ago people were comparing Hayward favorably to Paul George (I insisted PG was clearly better). But Middleton hasn't done anything at any time in his career to even be in that type of conversation.

[Somebody]

Middleton is good, but Hayward is clearly better - similar shooting % but much better shot creator and passer. The Js are about on middleton’s level, but freed up to do more things by the offense.

Hayward and Middleton have the same number of ASG under their belts. You also "conveniently" forgot to compare their defensive impact.

And you "conviently" forgot that all-star selections are a joke, especially in the East. Hayward's one selection in the stacked West is worth 5 selections in a conference where Kyle Korver was an all-star recently.

As far as defense is concerned, Middleton is better, sure. By a huge margin? Nah. If he was such a great defender, the Bucks would have probably beaten the Raptors last year.

So that means Hayward is clearly better than Middleton? Don't you think we are a little disrespectful to him here?

Do you think that Middleton could ever be a first option on a 50-win team in a tough conference? If the answer is no, than I would consider Hayward to be the clearly better player.

Are we comparing their best seasons ever? Are we projecting who is a better value going forward? Who is more available healthwise? What are we doing?
No matter how you slice and dice it Hayward will not be clearly better. He might be better in some regard but clearly? also if they both switch teams who will be clearly better?

I like Middleton more than most do (or seem to) and I still consider Hayward clearly better. Middleton just cannot do the same things that Hayward can in terms of playmaking and scoring at different levels, dealing with being a focal point of an offense etc. Any defensive difference is not much (if any). I think Middleton is longer, but I don't see him as a stopper at all.

It wasn't long ago people were comparing Hayward favorably to Paul George (I insisted PG was clearly better). But Middleton hasn't done anything at any time in his career to even be in that type of conversation.

I think there's a significant defensive difference tbh. I see Middleton as a strong wing defender, sure he's not elite but he's pretty disruptive due to his length and positioning, while I see Hayward as a neutral defender due to him being average at pretty much everything after his ankle injury (he had a bit more pop in his step before the injury, which helped with his defensive value to become a positive on that end).

I think Utah Hayward was ever so slightly better than Middleton's best, but I don't think the gap is that big. They're (or were for Hayward) both solid All-Star wings.

[Sophomore]

Sixers thump the Bucks and then next game lose to the Magic. Okay.

[Sophomore]

Middleton is good, but Hayward is clearly better - similar shooting % but much better shot creator and passer. The Js are about on middleton’s level, but freed up to do more things by the offense.

Hayward and Middleton have the same number of ASG under their belts. You also "conveniently" forgot to compare their defensive impact.

And you "conviently" forgot that all-star selections are a joke, especially in the East. Hayward's one selection in the stacked West is worth 5 selections in a conference where Kyle Korver was an all-star recently.

As far as defense is concerned, Middleton is better, sure. By a huge margin? Nah. If he was such a great defender, the Bucks would have probably beaten the Raptors last year.

So that means Hayward is clearly better than Middleton? Don't you think we are a little disrespectful to him here?

Do you think that Middleton could ever be a first option on a 50-win team in a tough conference? If the answer is no, than I would consider Hayward to be the clearly better player.

Are we comparing their best seasons ever? Are we projecting who is a better value going forward? Who is more available healthwise? What are we doing?
No matter how you slice and dice it Hayward will not be clearly better. He might be better in some regard but clearly? also if they both switch teams who will be clearly better?

I like Middleton more than most do (or seem to) and I still consider Hayward clearly better. Middleton just cannot do the same things that Hayward can in terms of playmaking and scoring at different levels, dealing with being a focal point of an offense etc. Any defensive difference is not much (if any). I think Middleton is longer, but I don't see him as a stopper at all.

It wasn't long ago people were comparing Hayward favorably to Paul George (I insisted PG was clearly better). But Middleton hasn't done anything at any time in his career to even be in that type of conversation.

I think there's a significant defensive difference tbh. I see Middleton as a strong wing defender, sure he's not elite but he's pretty disruptive due to his length and positioning, while I see Hayward as a neutral defender due to him being average at pretty much everything after his ankle injury (he had a bit more pop in his step before the injury, which helped with his defensive value to become a positive on that end).

I think Utah Hayward was ever so slightly better than Middleton's best, but I don't think the gap is that big. They're (or were for Hayward) both solid All-Star wings.

Hypothetical - you’re a GM choosing sides for a series, and you have to pick Middleton or Hayward. You really might take Middleton? I just don’t see anything close to the same shot creation or passing ability from him.

[Somebody]

Middleton is good, but Hayward is clearly better - similar shooting % but much better shot creator and passer. The Js are about on middleton’s level, but freed up to do more things by the offense.

Hayward and Middleton have the same number of ASG under their belts. You also "conveniently" forgot to compare their defensive impact.

And you "conviently" forgot that all-star selections are a joke, especially in the East. Hayward's one selection in the stacked West is worth 5 selections in a conference where Kyle Korver was an all-star recently.

As far as defense is concerned, Middleton is better, sure. By a huge margin? Nah. If he was such a great defender, the Bucks would have probably beaten the Raptors last year.

So that means Hayward is clearly better than Middleton? Don't you think we are a little disrespectful to him here?

Do you think that Middleton could ever be a first option on a 50-win team in a tough conference? If the answer is no, than I would consider Hayward to be the clearly better player.

Are we comparing their best seasons ever? Are we projecting who is a better value going forward? Who is more available healthwise? What are we doing?
No matter how you slice and dice it Hayward will not be clearly better. He might be better in some regard but clearly? also if they both switch teams who will be clearly better?

I like Middleton more than most do (or seem to) and I still consider Hayward clearly better. Middleton just cannot do the same things that Hayward can in terms of playmaking and scoring at different levels, dealing with being a focal point of an offense etc. Any defensive difference is not much (if any). I think Middleton is longer, but I don't see him as a stopper at all.

It wasn't long ago people were comparing Hayward favorably to Paul George (I insisted PG was clearly better). But Middleton hasn't done anything at any time in his career to even be in that type of conversation.

I think there's a significant defensive difference tbh. I see Middleton as a strong wing defender, sure he's not elite but he's pretty disruptive due to his length and positioning, while I see Hayward as a neutral defender due to him being average at pretty much everything after his ankle injury (he had a bit more pop in his step before the injury, which helped with his defensive value to become a positive on that end).

I think Utah Hayward was ever so slightly better than Middleton's best, but I don't think the gap is that big. They're (or were for Hayward) both solid All-Star wings.

Hypothetical - you’re a GM choosing sides for a series, and you have to pick Middleton or Hayward. You really might take Middleton? I just don’t see anything close to the same shot creation or passing ability from him.

I actually prefer Middleton's shot creation in a playoff format - teams can't take away his stuff. The passing is worse than Hayward's by quite a margin, but imo his resilient PO scoring, defensive edge and off ball movement help closing that margin a lot.

[RPGenerate]

Middleton is good, but Hayward is clearly better - similar shooting % but much better shot creator and passer. The Js are about on middleton’s level, but freed up to do more things by the offense.

Hayward and Middleton have the same number of ASG under their belts. You also "conveniently" forgot to compare their defensive impact.

And you "conviently" forgot that all-star selections are a joke, especially in the East. Hayward's one selection in the stacked West is worth 5 selections in a conference where Kyle Korver was an all-star recently.

As far as defense is concerned, Middleton is better, sure. By a huge margin? Nah. If he was such a great defender, the Bucks would have probably beaten the Raptors last year.

So that means Hayward is clearly better than Middleton? Don't you think we are a little disrespectful to him here?

Do you think that Middleton could ever be a first option on a 50-win team in a tough conference? If the answer is no, than I would consider Hayward to be the clearly better player.

Are we comparing their best seasons ever? Are we projecting who is a better value going forward? Who is more available healthwise? What are we doing?
No matter how you slice and dice it Hayward will not be clearly better. He might be better in some regard but clearly? also if they both switch teams who will be clearly better?

I like Middleton more than most do (or seem to) and I still consider Hayward clearly better. Middleton just cannot do the same things that Hayward can in terms of playmaking and scoring at different levels, dealing with being a focal point of an offense etc. Any defensive difference is not much (if any). I think Middleton is longer, but I don't see him as a stopper at all.

It wasn't long ago people were comparing Hayward favorably to Paul George (I insisted PG was clearly better). But Middleton hasn't done anything at any time in his career to even be in that type of conversation.

I think there's a significant defensive difference tbh. I see Middleton as a strong wing defender, sure he's not elite but he's pretty disruptive due to his length and positioning, while I see Hayward as a neutral defender due to him being average at pretty much everything after his ankle injury (he had a bit more pop in his step before the injury, which helped with his defensive value to become a positive on that end).

I think Utah Hayward was ever so slightly better than Middleton's best, but I don't think the gap is that big. They're (or were for Hayward) both solid All-Star wings.

Hypothetical - you’re a GM choosing sides for a series, and you have to pick Middleton or Hayward. You really might take Middleton? I just don’t see anything close to the same shot creation or passing ability from him.

I actually prefer Middleton's shot creation in a playoff format - teams can't take away his stuff. The passing is worse than Hayward's by quite a margin, but imo his resilient PO scoring, defensive edge and off ball movement help closing that margin a lot.

I guess the Raptors aren't part of these """teams""" you're talking about, as Middleton was pretty bad in that series. On the other hand, Hayward was fantastic in the playoffs against one of the greatest teams ever. I'm gonna have to disagree with you.

[Somebody]

Middleton is good, but Hayward is clearly better - similar shooting % but much better shot creator and passer. The Js are about on middleton’s level, but freed up to do more things by the offense.

Hayward and Middleton have the same number of ASG under their belts. You also "conveniently" forgot to compare their defensive impact.

And you "conviently" forgot that all-star selections are a joke, especially in the East. Hayward's one selection in the stacked West is worth 5 selections in a conference where Kyle Korver was an all-star recently.

As far as defense is concerned, Middleton is better, sure. By a huge margin? Nah. If he was such a great defender, the Bucks would have probably beaten the Raptors last year.

So that means Hayward is clearly better than Middleton? Don't you think we are a little disrespectful to him here?

Do you think that Middleton could ever be a first option on a 50-win team in a tough conference? If the answer is no, than I would consider Hayward to be the clearly better player.

Are we comparing their best seasons ever? Are we projecting who is a better value going forward? Who is more available healthwise? What are we doing?
No matter how you slice and dice it Hayward will not be clearly better. He might be better in some regard but clearly? also if they both switch teams who will be clearly better?

I like Middleton more than most do (or seem to) and I still consider Hayward clearly better. Middleton just cannot do the same things that Hayward can in terms of playmaking and scoring at different levels, dealing with being a focal point of an offense etc. Any defensive difference is not much (if any). I think Middleton is longer, but I don't see him as a stopper at all.

It wasn't long ago people were comparing Hayward favorably to Paul George (I insisted PG was clearly better). But Middleton hasn't done anything at any time in his career to even be in that type of conversation.

I think there's a significant defensive difference tbh. I see Middleton as a strong wing defender, sure he's not elite but he's pretty disruptive due to his length and positioning, while I see Hayward as a neutral defender due to him being average at pretty much everything after his ankle injury (he had a bit more pop in his step before the injury, which helped with his defensive value to become a positive on that end).

I think Utah Hayward was ever so slightly better than Middleton's best, but I don't think the gap is that big. They're (or were for Hayward) both solid All-Star wings.

Hypothetical - you’re a GM choosing sides for a series, and you have to pick Middleton or Hayward. You really might take Middleton? I just don’t see anything close to the same shot creation or passing ability from him.

I actually prefer Middleton's shot creation in a playoff format - teams can't take away his stuff. The passing is worse than Hayward's by quite a margin, but imo his resilient PO scoring, defensive edge and off ball movement help closing that margin a lot.

I guess the Raptors aren't part of these """teams""" you're talking about, as Middleton was pretty bad in that series. On the other hand, Hayward was fantastic in the playoffs against one of the greatest teams ever. I'm gonna have to disagree with you.

Sure, cherry pick one select series to say that one player is worse than the other in playoff scoring . I guess Hakeem Olajuwon wasn't a resilient playoff scorer because the Lakers took away his stuff once in 1990 LOL

[Moranis]

Middleton is good, but Hayward is clearly better - similar shooting % but much better shot creator and passer. The Js are about on middleton’s level, but freed up to do more things by the offense.

Hayward and Middleton have the same number of ASG under their belts. You also "conveniently" forgot to compare their defensive impact.

And you "conviently" forgot that all-star selections are a joke, especially in the East. Hayward's one selection in the stacked West is worth 5 selections in a conference where Kyle Korver was an all-star recently.

As far as defense is concerned, Middleton is better, sure. By a huge margin? Nah. If he was such a great defender, the Bucks would have probably beaten the Raptors last year.

So that means Hayward is clearly better than Middleton? Don't you think we are a little disrespectful to him here?

Do you think that Middleton could ever be a first option on a 50-win team in a tough conference? If the answer is no, than I would consider Hayward to be the clearly better player.

Are we comparing their best seasons ever? Are we projecting who is a better value going forward? Who is more available healthwise? What are we doing?
No matter how you slice and dice it Hayward will not be clearly better. He might be better in some regard but clearly? also if they both switch teams who will be clearly better?

I like Middleton more than most do (or seem to) and I still consider Hayward clearly better. Middleton just cannot do the same things that Hayward can in terms of playmaking and scoring at different levels, dealing with being a focal point of an offense etc. Any defensive difference is not much (if any). I think Middleton is longer, but I don't see him as a stopper at all.

It wasn't long ago people were comparing Hayward favorably to Paul George (I insisted PG was clearly better). But Middleton hasn't done anything at any time in his career to even be in that type of conversation.

I think there's a significant defensive difference tbh. I see Middleton as a strong wing defender, sure he's not elite but he's pretty disruptive due to his length and positioning, while I see Hayward as a neutral defender due to him being average at pretty much everything after his ankle injury (he had a bit more pop in his step before the injury, which helped with his defensive value to become a positive on that end).

I think Utah Hayward was ever so slightly better than Middleton's best, but I don't think the gap is that big. They're (or were for Hayward) both solid All-Star wings.

Hypothetical - you’re a GM choosing sides for a series, and you have to pick Middleton or Hayward. You really might take Middleton? I just don’t see anything close to the same shot creation or passing ability from him.

I actually prefer Middleton's shot creation in a playoff format - teams can't take away his stuff. The passing is worse than Hayward's by quite a margin, but imo his resilient PO scoring, defensive edge and off ball movement help closing that margin a lot.

I guess the Raptors aren't part of these """teams""" you're talking about, as Middleton was pretty bad in that series. On the other hand, Hayward was fantastic in the playoffs against one of the greatest teams ever. I'm gonna have to disagree with you.

ah yes because 1 series makes a player.  And just so we are clear, Middleton was better from 3 point range, better from the field, and had more rebounds.  They basically averaged the same amount of assists.  Hayward shot a lot more and scored a lot more as a result and as usual was better from the line. 

[Surferdad]

Middleton is good, but Hayward is clearly better - similar shooting % but much better shot creator and passer. The Js are about on middleton’s level, but freed up to do more things by the offense.

Hayward and Middleton have the same number of ASG under their belts. You also "conveniently" forgot to compare their defensive impact.

And you "conviently" forgot that all-star selections are a joke, especially in the East. Hayward's one selection in the stacked West is worth 5 selections in a conference where Kyle Korver was an all-star recently.

As far as defense is concerned, Middleton is better, sure. By a huge margin? Nah. If he was such a great defender, the Bucks would have probably beaten the Raptors last year.

So that means Hayward is clearly better than Middleton? Don't you think we are a little disrespectful to him here?

Do you think that Middleton could ever be a first option on a 50-win team in a tough conference? If the answer is no, than I would consider Hayward to be the clearly better player.

Are we comparing their best seasons ever? Are we projecting who is a better value going forward? Who is more available healthwise? What are we doing?
No matter how you slice and dice it Hayward will not be clearly better. He might be better in some regard but clearly? also if they both switch teams who will be clearly better?

I like Middleton more than most do (or seem to) and I still consider Hayward clearly better. Middleton just cannot do the same things that Hayward can in terms of playmaking and scoring at different levels, dealing with being a focal point of an offense etc. Any defensive difference is not much (if any). I think Middleton is longer, but I don't see him as a stopper at all.

It wasn't long ago people were comparing Hayward favorably to Paul George (I insisted PG was clearly better). But Middleton hasn't done anything at any time in his career to even be in that type of conversation.

I think there's a significant defensive difference tbh. I see Middleton as a strong wing defender, sure he's not elite but he's pretty disruptive due to his length and positioning, while I see Hayward as a neutral defender due to him being average at pretty much everything after his ankle injury (he had a bit more pop in his step before the injury, which helped with his defensive value to become a positive on that end).

I think Utah Hayward was ever so slightly better than Middleton's best, but I don't think the gap is that big. They're (or were for Hayward) both solid All-Star wings.

Hypothetical - you’re a GM choosing sides for a series, and you have to pick Middleton or Hayward. You really might take Middleton? I just don’t see anything close to the same shot creation or passing ability from him.

I actually prefer Middleton's shot creation in a playoff format - teams can't take away his stuff. The passing is worse than Hayward's by quite a margin, but imo his resilient PO scoring, defensive edge and off ball movement help closing that margin a lot.

I’ll chime in and say I strongly prefer Hayward over Middleton in the playoffs.  He is indeed a much MUCH better passer which makes it very difficult for teams to guard.  If Middelton’s shot is off, then collapse on Giannis.

[keevsnick]

Middleton is good, but Hayward is clearly better - similar shooting % but much better shot creator and passer. The Js are about on middleton’s level, but freed up to do more things by the offense.

Hayward and Middleton have the same number of ASG under their belts. You also "conveniently" forgot to compare their defensive impact.

And you "conviently" forgot that all-star selections are a joke, especially in the East. Hayward's one selection in the stacked West is worth 5 selections in a conference where Kyle Korver was an all-star recently.

As far as defense is concerned, Middleton is better, sure. By a huge margin? Nah. If he was such a great defender, the Bucks would have probably beaten the Raptors last year.

So that means Hayward is clearly better than Middleton? Don't you think we are a little disrespectful to him here?

Do you think that Middleton could ever be a first option on a 50-win team in a tough conference? If the answer is no, than I would consider Hayward to be the clearly better player.

Are we comparing their best seasons ever? Are we projecting who is a better value going forward? Who is more available healthwise? What are we doing?
No matter how you slice and dice it Hayward will not be clearly better. He might be better in some regard but clearly? also if they both switch teams who will be clearly better?

I like Middleton more than most do (or seem to) and I still consider Hayward clearly better. Middleton just cannot do the same things that Hayward can in terms of playmaking and scoring at different levels, dealing with being a focal point of an offense etc. Any defensive difference is not much (if any). I think Middleton is longer, but I don't see him as a stopper at all.

It wasn't long ago people were comparing Hayward favorably to Paul George (I insisted PG was clearly better). But Middleton hasn't done anything at any time in his career to even be in that type of conversation.

I think there's a significant defensive difference tbh. I see Middleton as a strong wing defender, sure he's not elite but he's pretty disruptive due to his length and positioning, while I see Hayward as a neutral defender due to him being average at pretty much everything after his ankle injury (he had a bit more pop in his step before the injury, which helped with his defensive value to become a positive on that end).

I think Utah Hayward was ever so slightly better than Middleton's best, but I don't think the gap is that big. They're (or were for Hayward) both solid All-Star wings.

Hypothetical - you’re a GM choosing sides for a series, and you have to pick Middleton or Hayward. You really might take Middleton? I just don’t see anything close to the same shot creation or passing ability from him.

I actually prefer Middleton's shot creation in a playoff format - teams can't take away his stuff. The passing is worse than Hayward's by quite a margin, but imo his resilient PO scoring, defensive edge and off ball movement help closing that margin a lot.

I’ll chime in and say I strongly prefer Hayward over Middleton in the playoffs.  He is indeed a much MUCH better passer which makes it very difficult for teams to guard.  If Middelton’s shot is off, then collapse on Giannis.

I think it might just depend on what you want from a guy. I do think Hayward is a better passer, but Middleton has always struck me as a better shooter. He's a 39% 3pt shooter career vs 36.4% for Hayward. In our current alignment I think its more important to have the better passer given our other scoring options, and I think Hayward is better in general, but its not a massive difference. Maybe I'm just remembering all the times Middleton has torched the c's.

[Somebody]

Middleton is good, but Hayward is clearly better - similar shooting % but much better shot creator and passer. The Js are about on middleton’s level, but freed up to do more things by the offense.

Hayward and Middleton have the same number of ASG under their belts. You also "conveniently" forgot to compare their defensive impact.

And you "conviently" forgot that all-star selections are a joke, especially in the East. Hayward's one selection in the stacked West is worth 5 selections in a conference where Kyle Korver was an all-star recently.

As far as defense is concerned, Middleton is better, sure. By a huge margin? Nah. If he was such a great defender, the Bucks would have probably beaten the Raptors last year.

So that means Hayward is clearly better than Middleton? Don't you think we are a little disrespectful to him here?

Do you think that Middleton could ever be a first option on a 50-win team in a tough conference? If the answer is no, than I would consider Hayward to be the clearly better player.

Are we comparing their best seasons ever? Are we projecting who is a better value going forward? Who is more available healthwise? What are we doing?
No matter how you slice and dice it Hayward will not be clearly better. He might be better in some regard but clearly? also if they both switch teams who will be clearly better?

I like Middleton more than most do (or seem to) and I still consider Hayward clearly better. Middleton just cannot do the same things that Hayward can in terms of playmaking and scoring at different levels, dealing with being a focal point of an offense etc. Any defensive difference is not much (if any). I think Middleton is longer, but I don't see him as a stopper at all.

It wasn't long ago people were comparing Hayward favorably to Paul George (I insisted PG was clearly better). But Middleton hasn't done anything at any time in his career to even be in that type of conversation.

I think there's a significant defensive difference tbh. I see Middleton as a strong wing defender, sure he's not elite but he's pretty disruptive due to his length and positioning, while I see Hayward as a neutral defender due to him being average at pretty much everything after his ankle injury (he had a bit more pop in his step before the injury, which helped with his defensive value to become a positive on that end).

I think Utah Hayward was ever so slightly better than Middleton's best, but I don't think the gap is that big. They're (or were for Hayward) both solid All-Star wings.

Hypothetical - you’re a GM choosing sides for a series, and you have to pick Middleton or Hayward. You really might take Middleton? I just don’t see anything close to the same shot creation or passing ability from him.

I actually prefer Middleton's shot creation in a playoff format - teams can't take away his stuff. The passing is worse than Hayward's by quite a margin, but imo his resilient PO scoring, defensive edge and off ball movement help closing that margin a lot.

I’ll chime in and say I strongly prefer Hayward over Middleton in the playoffs.  He is indeed a much MUCH better passer which makes it very difficult for teams to guard.  If Middelton’s shot is off, then collapse on Giannis.

As a complementary piece? I agree because his passing is a very scalable ceiling raising skill. But I'd take Middleton as a top dog - his scoring that is basically impervious to tough defences (those pullups he regularly takes are already tough shots, teams can't take that away) is so valuable when you need a crunch time scorer to outgun teams in the clutch, ntm that his passing is good enough to take advantage of defences collapsing on him so he's not a pure finisher.

[jambr380]

Middleton is good, but Hayward is clearly better - similar shooting % but much better shot creator and passer. The Js are about on middleton’s level, but freed up to do more things by the offense.

Hayward and Middleton have the same number of ASG under their belts. You also "conveniently" forgot to compare their defensive impact.

And you "conviently" forgot that all-star selections are a joke, especially in the East. Hayward's one selection in the stacked West is worth 5 selections in a conference where Kyle Korver was an all-star recently.

As far as defense is concerned, Middleton is better, sure. By a huge margin? Nah. If he was such a great defender, the Bucks would have probably beaten the Raptors last year.

So that means Hayward is clearly better than Middleton? Don't you think we are a little disrespectful to him here?

Do you think that Middleton could ever be a first option on a 50-win team in a tough conference? If the answer is no, than I would consider Hayward to be the clearly better player.

Are we comparing their best seasons ever? Are we projecting who is a better value going forward? Who is more available healthwise? What are we doing?
No matter how you slice and dice it Hayward will not be clearly better. He might be better in some regard but clearly? also if they both switch teams who will be clearly better?

I like Middleton more than most do (or seem to) and I still consider Hayward clearly better. Middleton just cannot do the same things that Hayward can in terms of playmaking and scoring at different levels, dealing with being a focal point of an offense etc. Any defensive difference is not much (if any). I think Middleton is longer, but I don't see him as a stopper at all.

It wasn't long ago people were comparing Hayward favorably to Paul George (I insisted PG was clearly better). But Middleton hasn't done anything at any time in his career to even be in that type of conversation.

I think there's a significant defensive difference tbh. I see Middleton as a strong wing defender, sure he's not elite but he's pretty disruptive due to his length and positioning, while I see Hayward as a neutral defender due to him being average at pretty much everything after his ankle injury (he had a bit more pop in his step before the injury, which helped with his defensive value to become a positive on that end).

I think Utah Hayward was ever so slightly better than Middleton's best, but I don't think the gap is that big. They're (or were for Hayward) both solid All-Star wings.

Hypothetical - you’re a GM choosing sides for a series, and you have to pick Middleton or Hayward. You really might take Middleton? I just don’t see anything close to the same shot creation or passing ability from him.

I actually prefer Middleton's shot creation in a playoff format - teams can't take away his stuff. The passing is worse than Hayward's by quite a margin, but imo his resilient PO scoring, defensive edge and off ball movement help closing that margin a lot.

I’ll chime in and say I strongly prefer Hayward over Middleton in the playoffs.  He is indeed a much MUCH better passer which makes it very difficult for teams to guard.  If Middelton’s shot is off, then collapse on Giannis.

As a complementary piece? I agree because his passing is a very scalable ceiling raising skill. But I'd take Middleton as a top dog - his scoring that is basically impervious to tough defences (those pullups he regularly takes are already tough shots, teams can't take that away) is so valuable when you need a crunch time scorer to outgun teams in the clutch, ntm that his passing is good enough to take advantage of defences collapsing on him so he's not a pure finisher.

I would almost say the opposite. I imagine Middleton would have a very difficult time being 'top dog' without Giannis drawing so much attention. Hayward, otoh, has already proven he can lead a team.

As a complementary piece, Middleton works well in his role since he does one thing at such an elite level. Hayward's role in Boston is key since we no longer have Horford acting as a front court distributor. Our team kind-of relies on 4 guys to lead the way at various times throughout a game. Obviously nobody is at Giannis' level, but I would certainly take all 4 of our guys over Middleton.

[SHAQATTACK]

Sixers thump the Bucks and then next game lose to the Magic. Okay.

i thought Magic was going to choke , had a nice lead with like 1 min left and let Horford and Embiid almost pull it out sinking 35 ft threes ....... smartly they foul Fultz ....who bricks the freethrow and Embiid nearly sinks a 50 ft er at the buzzer ....jezzzz...Magic ....trying to loose than one.

[Phantom255x]

The Sixers are confusing.

They beat good teams (as we recently saw on Christmas Day), but then lose games like yesterday to mediocre teams. I guess that bodes well for them come playoff time when they face great teams. Like for most teams though, health will remain key. They need a healthy Embiid for the playoffs.