Could Waters turn out to be a VanVleet type player?

[Sophomore]

I'm bored on a Tuesday night, and this idea sort of came to me while putting off doing anything of actual value

Obviously quite different games, with VanVleet being a more natural shooter and scorer, while Waters is a better defender and passer. But the comparison, at least in my head, comes from them both being undersized and overlooked guards.

VanVleet came up huge for the Raps in the playoffs (and last season in general) - does Waters have the potential to develop into that kind of impact player for us? Mind you, VanVleet was really nothing as a rookie.

Impact yes. Both are savvy

but VanVleet is built like Lowry and has more of a complete game

Can shoot, drive, pass, defend

Waters still has work to do (3 pt shooting, add mass)

Be interesting to see Waters defending some better competition. He was a DPOY in his conference - has a knack for getting into guys’ space and timing his reach-ins without losing balance. A real pest. He’s really good against scrubs of bad teams in pre-season. Want to see him against a real backup. Hard for me to think of a comp.

JJ Barea with better hesi/change of pace and a little less straight-line speed?  Waters’ court vision and dribble ability are already very nice. But honestly, his passing ability is already looking very good, so ... idk.

[SHAQATTACK]

Kemba better not let up ,  he has couple dudes looking ober his shoulder that would love to have his chance at his job .

Pressure Pressure is ON at the guard spot and season an't even started.

[trickybilly]

Imo Patty Mills comparison is better (if Waters makes it)

Agree Patty is better framewise.. Taller Earl Boykins maybe.

I'm all in on Waters. I think moreso than Carsen. Waters' reads are so good, he really is the truest form of classical point guard. Put it this way, if we could waive Wanamaker and add Tremont, I'm doing that in a split second. And I really like Wanamaker...

But sparkplug shooting is what the team needs right now, so Carsen (and Strus) is the right choice. For now.

Javonte green needs his own discussion thread after that performance. Love his effort.

[trickybilly]

Kemba better not let up ,  he has couple dudes looking ober his shoulder that would love to have his chance at his job .

Pressure Pressure is ON at the guard spot and season an't even started.

When China fully decouples and the cap goes down, that is going to be one of the hardest salaries to move in the whole league.

Can't wait to find out if Kemba can actually play PG on a basketball TEAM.

[footey]

Love this kid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJTGoEUetGo

[IDreamCeltics]

Yes, Waters can have the same impact as VanVleet.

It's just unfortunate for Waters that the Celts also have Carsen Edwards.

But clearly Waters will be an adequate replacement for Kemba in the near future.

Is this sarcasm or a joke? You don't really believe that Waters will develop into an adequate replacement for a three time All-Star and an All-NBA performer that has averaged 20PPG over his 8 year career, do you?

I think Wannamaker could probably replace 80% of Kemba's production in Brad's system.  Waters looks like he could be two years away from replacing Kemba to me, but he has the pointguard gene for sure.

[moiso]

Yes, Waters can have the same impact as VanVleet.

It's just unfortunate for Waters that the Celts also have Carsen Edwards.

But clearly Waters will be an adequate replacement for Kemba in the near future.

Is this sarcasm or a joke? You don't really believe that Waters will develop into an adequate replacement for a three time All-Star and an All-NBA performer that has averaged 20PPG over his 8 year career, do you?

I think Wannamaker could probably replace 80% of Kemba's production in Brad's system.  Waters looks like he could be two years away from replacing Kemba to me, but he has the pointguard gene for sure.

I think we are underestimating the difference between an allstar and a benchwarmer.  The gap is huge.  I like Wannamaker but he would replace something closer to 8% of Walker's production than 80%.  And we have no clue about Waters yet.

[Walker Wiggle]

Astounding propensity to underrate Kemba Walker in this thread. Even as I am just as impressed by Edwards and Waters.

Van Vleet is probably not a good comparison. The reason why he was successful in the playoffs, I think, is that he wasn’t horribly undersized — it’s not just about height, it’s about strength and weight — such that opposing teams couldn’t punish him on switches. So you could play him and Lowry together and be fine.

Waters can never do that. He’s tiny. And yet, the fact that he was defensive player of the year in his conference tells you something. I’d the team can scheme around Isaiah Thomas on D, then I’m not too worried about the future of Waters on the defensive end, given the other things he brings to the table on that end.

[Hoopvortex]

Obviously quite different games, with VanVleet being a more natural shooter and scorer, while Waters is a better defender and passer. But the comparison, at least in my head, comes from them both being undersized and overlooked guards.

Waters has a beautiful stroke, and judging by what sample size we’ve got, he’s accurate as well.

On the other hand, VanVleet is a very good defender.

I think that your comparisons are a bit off the cuff.

How do you figure that Fred is undersized?

What sample size is that? I like Waters, but his 3P shooting in college wasn't particularly good. Granted, he is looking better here, but the edge would still have to go to VanVleet.

College %s aren't going to tell you a whole lot, nor are comparisons between NBA veterans and rookies in pre-season. I'm also not arguing that Waters is actually better, rather that we don't have a whole lot to go on - even if we did, it wouldn't tell us much. 3-pt%s are especially volatile, and in the end there is NEVER enough of a sample size.

Waters will be a good 3-pt shooter. Looks like he could get some minutes at some point this year; if he shoots .300, well and good - but that won't give you much of a clue as to who of Fred and Tremont is a better shooter.

Waters was also the SEC Defensive Player of the Year, whereas VanVleet had no defensive accolades during his college career.

You're reasoning that Waters is a better NBA defender, not having yet played any NBA minutes - than Fred VanVleet, who was a plus defender in the NBA Finals this past year - because he got an accolade in college that Fred didn't?

Consider that their defensive games are different (in your words "obviously quite different"), and while Tremont has a chance to be a really good NBA defender, despite his size, his great hands and the ability to steal the ball from the man he's guarding are more obvious defensive skills than: being in the right place at the right time, bumping the roll man, not helping one pass away, and all the other things that make a player a great defender (but fans never notice) - and so are more likely to get college accolades.

And my comparison wasn't really to do with actual play style, but more impact. I even said in the OP

Obviously quite different games

I was only addressing the comparisons you made in your post. I agree with you that their play styles are different.

I figure that VanVleet is undersized because he is measured at 6' prior to the new measurement system being implemented. 6' full-stop is undersized - not sure how you could argue otherwise.

So you're only looking at height. But "size" is more than that. Consider that mass and strength are if anything more important for an NBA player playing defense, and for doing things like driving into the paint with the ball. And weight is a good, if imperfect, proxy for strength.

By that measure Fred is comfortably above average. Here're most of the rotation point guards by weight:

VanVleet 195
Kemba 184
Rubio 190
Rondo 186
Mike Conley 175
Ja Morant 175
Lonzo 190
Quinn Cook 179
Steph 190
D’Angelo 198
Patrick Beverley 185
Landry Shamet 190
De’Aaron Fox 185
Tyler Ulis 160
Shai 181
Chris Paul 175
Schröder 172
Frank Mason III 190
George Hill 188
Bledsoe 208
Cory Joseph 200
Yogi Ferrell 180
Rozier 190
Trae Young 180
Derrick Rose 200
Reggie Jackson 208
Kyle Lowry 196
Shabazz Napier 180
Jeff Teague 195
Damian Lillard 195
Mudiay 200
Patty Mills 180
Derrick White 190
Dejounte 170
DJ Augustin 183
MCW 190
Ish Smith 180
Isaiah Thomas 185
John Wall 210
Kyrie 195
Dennis Smith 196
Elfrid Payton 185

[Hoopvortex]

I'm bored on a Tuesday night, and this idea sort of came to me while putting off doing anything of actual value

Obviously quite different games, with VanVleet being a more natural shooter and scorer, while Waters is a better defender and passer. But the comparison, at least in my head, comes from them both being undersized and overlooked guards.

VanVleet came up huge for the Raps in the playoffs (and last season in general) - does Waters have the potential to develop into that kind of impact player for us? Mind you, VanVleet was really nothing as a rookie.

Impact yes. Both are savvy

but VanVleet is built like Lowry and has more of a complete game

Can shoot, drive, pass, defend

Waters still has work to do (3 pt shooting, add mass)

Be interesting to see Waters defending some better competition. He was a DPOY in his conference - has a knack for getting into guys’ space and timing his reach-ins without losing balance. A real pest. He’s really good against scrubs of bad teams in pre-season. Want to see him against a real backup. Hard for me to think of a comp.

JJ Barea with better hesi/change of pace and a little less straight-line speed?  Waters’ court vision and dribble ability are already very nice. But honestly, his passing ability is already looking very good, so ... idk.

Chris Paul, maybe. Same weight and quickness, good hands and great handles; both have the rare ability to steal the ball from the man they're guarding.

[footey]

Forsberg on Celts podcast says Celtics underestimated Waters when they signed him to 2 way; that he’s ready to contribute from bench already.

[IDreamCeltics]

Forsberg on Celts podcast says Celtics underestimated Waters when they signed him to 2 way; that he’s ready to contribute from bench already.

It's true.  It's fairly obvious this kid is going to be pushing Kemba for minutes.  It'll be interesting to see how Kemba handles being challenged for the first time in his career, will he pull a Kyrie?  Probably.

[gouki88]

Forsberg on Celts podcast says Celtics underestimated Waters when they signed him to 2 way; that he’s ready to contribute from bench already.

It's true.  It's fairly obvious this kid is going to be pushing Kemba for minutes.  It'll be interesting to see how Kemba handles being challenged for the first time in his career, will he pull a Kyrie?  Probably.

I would be surprised if our second round pick challenges Kemba for minutes more than Tony Parker, Jeremy Lin or Ramon Sessions did. And I like Waters quite a lot.

[ChillyWilly]

I think Waters is better than Wannamaker right now. Hell Waters is everything I was wanting Roizer to be.

[mr. dee]

Waters is a pure PG. Vanvleet is a combo guard.