2019 Historical: How Does My Team Look Thread

[Somebody]

Not getting the criticism that centers wouldn't be able to cover PGs or PFs wouldn't be able to cover SGs.

News flash.

None of the centers in this game would be able to cover the PGs of this game.

Also, almost none of the PFs in this game could cover SGs in this game.

Hakeem and Dave both could.

Hakeem wasnt at a mismatch if switched out onto any other position, and dave guarded 2-5 throughout his career.

If you made a top 5 list of most versatile defenders in NBA history it would have
Rodman
Hakeem
Dave
Jones
Scottie

thats the list

No Hakeem and DeBusschere could not guard PGs and SGs in this league. Both could possibly do well in PnR defense with those positions for a few moments or possessions.

But if teams are doing 1-5 switches and Hakeem is on an island with the best PGs ever in their best season for extended time, he will be giving up lots of points. Same for DeBusschere with the SGs in this game.

That's no knock on those guys. As I said I don't think that any centers or many PFs could do these things in this game against those players.

Could prime KG do it for a bit? I remember him guarding guys like TMac for a whole game during his peak.

[nickagneta]

Not getting the criticism that centers wouldn't be able to cover PGs or PFs wouldn't be able to cover SGs.

News flash.

None of the centers in this game would be able to cover the PGs of this game.

Also, almost none of the PFs in this game could cover SGs in this game.

Hakeem and Dave both could.

Hakeem wasnt at a mismatch if switched out onto any other position, and dave guarded 2-5 throughout his career.

If you made a top 5 list of most versatile defenders in NBA history it would have
Rodman
Hakeem
Dave
Jones
Scottie

thats the list

No Hakeem and DeBusschere could not guard PGs and SGs in this league. Both could possibly do well in PnR defense with those positions for a few moments or possessions.

But if teams are doing 1-5 switches and Hakeem is on an island with the best PGs ever in their best season for extended time, he will be giving up lots of points. Same for DeBusschere with the SGs in this game.

That's no knock on those guys. As I said I don't think that any centers or many PFs could do these things in this game against those players.

I agree, as was my original point.

My guys could do that, the others couldnt.

Isolating Hakeem a play or 2 out at the 3pt line will get a heavily contested shot. Most likely. Dave would put up a fight and get the offensive person to have to make a difficult shot. would they make it? probably as these are the best players of all time, but they will work for it. and that pays off in the end

Disagree. Lots of centers could play good PnR defense for possessions against the best PGs. Lots of PGs could do the same for SGs.

Where Hakeem and DeBusschere have their defensive advantages in this game, in a large way, is when guarding people in their areas. Hakeem was an unreal defender of big people and protector of the paint. DeBusschere was on PF and SFs of his era. Use that to your advantage instead of getting caught up in discussions of whether Hakeem could guard Curry, Magic, Nash, Iverson, Magic, Stockton, Frazier and others. Or DeBusscherre with other smaller players.

[Silky]

Not getting the criticism that centers wouldn't be able to cover PGs or PFs wouldn't be able to cover SGs.

News flash.

None of the centers in this game would be able to cover the PGs of this game.

Also, almost none of the PFs in this game could cover SGs in this game.

Hakeem and Dave both could.

Hakeem wasnt at a mismatch if switched out onto any other position, and dave guarded 2-5 throughout his career.

If you made a top 5 list of most versatile defenders in NBA history it would have
Rodman
Hakeem
Dave
Jones
Scottie

thats the list

No Hakeem and DeBusschere could not guard PGs and SGs in this league. Both could possibly do well in PnR defense with those positions for a few moments or possessions.

But if teams are doing 1-5 switches and Hakeem is on an island with the best PGs ever in their best season for extended time, he will be giving up lots of points. Same for DeBusschere with the SGs in this game.

That's no knock on those guys. As I said I don't think that any centers or many PFs could do these things in this game against those players.

I agree, as was my original point.

My guys could do that, the others couldnt.

Isolating Hakeem a play or 2 out at the 3pt line will get a heavily contested shot. Most likely. Dave would put up a fight and get the offensive person to have to make a difficult shot. would they make it? probably as these are the best players of all time, but they will work for it. and that pays off in the end

Disagree. Lots of centers could play good PnR defense for possessions against the best PGs. Lots of PGs could do the same for SGs.

Where Hakeem and DeBusschere have their defensive advantages in this game, in a large way, is when guarding people in their areas. Hakeem was an unreal defender of big people and protector of the paint. DeBusschere was on PF and SFs of his era. Use that to your advantage instead of getting caught up in discussions of whether Hakeem could guard Curry, Magic, Nash, Iverson, Magic, Stockton, Frazier and others. Or DeBusscherre with other smaller players.

That is already a given, I was called out for stating my guys are better in a switch that pretty much anyone else at every position. And that is what I debated on, my teams ability to switch and not get exposed.

and i stand by that.

lots could do it, but Hakeem was the best at it. Shaq or wilt for example couldnt come close to it.



And Yes Hakeem and Dave were by far best at defending their positions. Dave at sf/pf and Hakeem at Center.

No argument there at all.

2 of the top 5 alltime defensive players imo.

PAyton is in the top 10 alltime defenders

Kobe in the top 20-25 all time defenders

Dandridge in the top 40-50 all time.
Dave, outside of Rodman, has the most versatility of anyone, and Hakeem is not far behind.

[Silky]

Not getting the criticism that centers wouldn't be able to cover PGs or PFs wouldn't be able to cover SGs.

News flash.

None of the centers in this game would be able to cover the PGs of this game.

Also, almost none of the PFs in this game could cover SGs in this game.

Hakeem and Dave both could.

Hakeem wasnt at a mismatch if switched out onto any other position, and dave guarded 2-5 throughout his career.

If you made a top 5 list of most versatile defenders in NBA history it would have
Rodman
Hakeem
Dave
Jones
Scottie

thats the list

No Hakeem and DeBusschere could not guard PGs and SGs in this league. Both could possibly do well in PnR defense with those positions for a few moments or possessions.

But if teams are doing 1-5 switches and Hakeem is on an island with the best PGs ever in their best season for extended time, he will be giving up lots of points. Same for DeBusschere with the SGs in this game.

That's no knock on those guys. As I said I don't think that any centers or many PFs could do these things in this game against those players.

Could prime KG do it for a bit? I remember him guarding guys like TMac for a whole game during his peak.

KG is a great example.

[nickagneta]

Not getting the criticism that centers wouldn't be able to cover PGs or PFs wouldn't be able to cover SGs.

News flash.

None of the centers in this game would be able to cover the PGs of this game.

Also, almost none of the PFs in this game could cover SGs in this game.

Hakeem and Dave both could.

Hakeem wasnt at a mismatch if switched out onto any other position, and dave guarded 2-5 throughout his career.

If you made a top 5 list of most versatile defenders in NBA history it would have
Rodman
Hakeem
Dave
Jones
Scottie

thats the list

No Hakeem and DeBusschere could not guard PGs and SGs in this league. Both could possibly do well in PnR defense with those positions for a few moments or possessions.

But if teams are doing 1-5 switches and Hakeem is on an island with the best PGs ever in their best season for extended time, he will be giving up lots of points. Same for DeBusschere with the SGs in this game.

That's no knock on those guys. As I said I don't think that any centers or many PFs could do these things in this game against those players.

Could prime KG do it for a bit? I remember him guarding guys like TMac for a whole game during his peak.

KG is a great example.

TMac wasn't a PG. He was more of a SF playing as a ball handling SG.

[Somebody]

Not getting the criticism that centers wouldn't be able to cover PGs or PFs wouldn't be able to cover SGs.

News flash.

None of the centers in this game would be able to cover the PGs of this game.

Also, almost none of the PFs in this game could cover SGs in this game.

Hakeem and Dave both could.

Hakeem wasnt at a mismatch if switched out onto any other position, and dave guarded 2-5 throughout his career.

If you made a top 5 list of most versatile defenders in NBA history it would have
Rodman
Hakeem
Dave
Jones
Scottie

thats the list

No Hakeem and DeBusschere could not guard PGs and SGs in this league. Both could possibly do well in PnR defense with those positions for a few moments or possessions.

But if teams are doing 1-5 switches and Hakeem is on an island with the best PGs ever in their best season for extended time, he will be giving up lots of points. Same for DeBusschere with the SGs in this game.

That's no knock on those guys. As I said I don't think that any centers or many PFs could do these things in this game against those players.

Could prime KG do it for a bit? I remember him guarding guys like TMac for a whole game during his peak.

KG is a great example.

TMac wasn't a PG. He was more of a SF playing as a ball handling SG.

Yeah I meant SGs.

[nickagneta]

Just 5 teams rosters are in, though the other teams could be in trade discussions, so are holding off putting in rosters early.

Nothing from greenrunsdeep41. Hope we haven't lost him.

[Silky]

Just 5 teams rosters are in, though the other teams could be in trade discussions, so are holding off putting in rosters early.

Nothing from greenrunsdeep41. Hope we haven't lost him.

I will run his team if he doesn't show up. Although I think he needs to make a trade or 2

[nickagneta]

Just 5 teams rosters are in, though the other teams could be in trade discussions, so are holding off putting in rosters early.

Nothing from greenrunsdeep41. Hope we haven't lost him.

I will run his team if he doesn't show up. Although I think he needs to make a trade or 2

No, I will handle things. Thanks.

[action781]

Looking for a short response on the specific question in this post in blue font regarding what year/position you think Dennis Rodman would optimally used as?  I could go younger Rodman at SF with Pettit at PF (moving Mullin to the bench).  Or I could keep Rodman at PF, and if so am I choosing a good year for Rodman?

Thanks in advance!

Looking for feedback on the
Utah Jazz

Starters
PG:  1990 Joe Dumars (30 minutes) -- Champion, all-defensive first team.
SG:  1991 Michael Jordan (36 minutes) -- Champion, all-defensive first team, Finals MVP.
SF:  1992 Chris Mullin (30 minutes)
PF:  1996 Dennis Rodman (24 minutes) -- Champion, all-defensive first team
C:  1977 Bill Walton (32 minutes) -- Champion, all-defensive first team, Finals MVP.

                                 Season   Age   PTS   REB   AST   STL   BLK   
PG   Joe Dumars        1989-90   26   17.8   2.8   4.9     0.8    0.0   
SG   Michael Jordan   1990-91   27   31.5   6.0   5.5     2.7   1.0
SF   Chris Mullin        1991-92   28   25.6   5.6   3.5     2.1   0.8   
PF   Dennis Rodman   1995-96   34   5.5   14.9   2.5     0.6     0.4   
C    Bill Walton          1976-77   24   18.6   14.4   3.2    1.0    3.2   

Bench
PG:  2011 Derrick Rose (12 minutes) -- League MVP.  Subs in when MJ subs out as an offensive catalyst.
SG:  2018 Klay Thompson (18 minutes) -- Champion.  Primary sub for Dumars. Will play alongside MJ at times which pushes MJ to point.
SF:  2015 Andre Iguodala (18 minutes) -- Champion, Finals MVP.  Chris Mullin's primary backup. 
PF:  1958 Bob Pettit (30 minutes) -- Champion, Finals MVP.  A lot of minutes, including some as backup center.  2x scoring champ, 2x MVP, 4x all-star MVP (indicating he can thrive alongside other all-stars) in his career.
C:  1978 Wes Unseld (10 minutes) -- Champion, Finals MVP.  A guy who can excel in a non-primary role on a title team (Finals MVP) and one of best outlet passers in league history to help spark the fast break.  Plays well with other stars.

Defense
The strength of my team is defense.  We start former DPOYs and two top-10 NBA defenders of all-time at SG and PF (Jordan and Rodman).  Joe Dumars and Bill Walton at PG and C are first-team all-defensive players.  Walton is a particularly excellent help-defending shot blocker.  Chris Mullin is not known as neither a great defensive player nor a liability, but I can put Andre Iguodala in the starting lineup if needed (against a team with an elite SF needing to be defended) or slide Rodman up a position if the matchup necessitates. 

Offense
I'd like to turn defense and rebounding into transition offense a lot as my wings -- Jordan, Mullins, D-Rose, Klay -- can really thrive in transition and my bigs -- Rodman, Walton, and Unseld -- can rebound well and are all top-notch at igniting the break with outlet passing.

I think the offensive parts of my starting lineup compliment each other very well. 
-Michael Jordan, of course, is the primary option who can score in volume at elite efficiency. 
-Jordan has floor spacers on the perimeter with Dumars and Mullin that need to be respected.  Those guys can create to a lesser extent as well.
-Mullin is our secondary scoring option (25ppg as all-nba first team player in '92) who was the 4th leading scorer for the original Dream Team can thrive playing uptempo (see: Run TMC) and without the ball in his hands. 
-I'd like some half-court offense to run through Bill Walton who can be a great playmaker setting up hand-offs for our perimeter players, hitting cutters, and crashing the o-boards with Rodman. 
-Rodman is obviously not your typical "threat" offensively, but can collect tons of o-boards and can finish with high efficiency.  I value highly having a low-usage starter as I think every team has players that will have difficulty adapting to lesser usage than they are used to.

On the bench, we have a lot of scoring punch with 2x scoring champ Bob Pettit, MVP Derrick Rose, and Klay Thompson along with some great team-oriented offensive players in floor spacer and passer Andre Iguodala and outlet passer Wes Unseld.  Some of the scoring punch on our bench is greater than in our starting lineup because I'd prefer to not take too much usage away from Jordan.  I think Walton, Dumars, and Mullins are all quite good supportive offensive players to put around Jordan.

Some questions:
1) How impactful is having Dennis Rodman as a defender in my starting lineup?  One website, ranker.com, allows users to all vote on random questions and has Dennis Rodman as the #1 best defender of all time -- https://www.ranker.com/list/the-best-nba-defensive-players-of-all-time-v1/jeffnorth   I feel like he will be an excellent starter as a guy who can be impactful while not taking usage away from other guys.  Am I overvaluing this?  Are people not really concerned with the diminished value most players will get as their usage decreases?

2) Generally speaking for any team, would Rodman be used most optimally when he was more of a SF in Detroit (DPOY) or when he was a PF in Chicago (defended bigs better, better rebounder)?  I could always slide him up to SF and start Pettit at PF.  I really could use some help in what season I should select for him.  His stats weren't great in the '96 season I want to use him for.

3) I often intentionally picked the seasons of guys when they won titles and particularly if they won Finals MVP.  I think performing at that high of a level when the stakes are the highest against the best teams speaks volumes of a players performance that year.  Do other people think similarly?  For example, should I have chosen Wes Unseld's 1969 13ppg, 18rpg NBA MVP season at age 22 without team success over his 1978 8ppg, 12rpg season Champion/Finals MVP season at age 31?  Would it make much of a difference if I choose 1989 for Dumars when he was Finals MVP?

4) Any other general commentary is much appreciated.  Looking forward to commenting on your teams as well!

[action781]

So now that the draft is done, I thought it would be fun to see who wasn't drafted.

The only MVP not drafted was Russell Westbrook.  A bit surprised given some of the players drafted, but not terribly surprising given his inefficient game and difficulty to fit into an all time team type structure.

3 DPOY's were not drafted: Rudy Gobert, Joakim Noah, and Tyson Chandler.  Again no surprises there. 

Jo Jo White is the only Finals MVP to not be selected.

The players from ESPN's top 100 that were not drafted were: Westbrook (49), Adrian Dantley (72), Blake Griffin (75), Paul Arizin (90), Maurice Cheeks (91), Lenny Wilkens (93), Marc Gasol (95), Kevin Love (99)

Dantley at 28th all time has the most points scored of any player not selected.  Hal Greer, Walt Bellamy, Joe Johnson, Antawn Jamison, Clifford Robinson, Walter Davis, and Terry Cummings are all in the top 50. 

Richard Hamilton has the most career playoff points of every player not selected (37th all time) and just ahead of Westbrook at 39th all time.  Byron Scott and Derek Fisher are the only other 2 players in the top 50 of playoff points not selected.

Griffin and Westbrook were on my radar for my last pick
johnson and jamison for my second to last pick.

I kind of though Gasol would get picked, DPOY, passer, scorer, rebounder, range. surprised he didnt honestly.

I had Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, and Rudy Gobert as good DPOY-winning centers all on my radar for a while, then ultimately went with Mark Eaton for that role.  Also surprised none of them got taken.  It seems like a skill that would be very translatable and useful in this game.

[Who]

Rodman's best defensive years were his younger ones. I would go with one of his Detroit seasons.

By 1996, Rodman had already slowed down some and lost some of defensive versatility in covering perimeter players and also to play in a trapping defense which the Bulls had to do less often with Rodman than with Horace Grant because Rodman wasn't as mobile.

Rodman was also a better scorer when he was younger. More athletic running the floor, cutting and finishing at the rim. Why his FG% was higher and why he shot more often.

1991 or 1992. Before he went to San Antonio.

Edit: I prefer Rodman as PF than a SF. (1) easier to hide Rodman's lack of shooting at PF than SF (2) It allows Rodman to play closer to the paint where he can get more rebounds which is his main strength as a player - his rebounding.

[Who]

Young Wes Unseld was a much better player than an old Wes Unseld. He had a severe injury (I forget what) early in his career that reduced his mobility / quickness (especially quickness of leaping ability to get contested rebounds in traffic). I forget when it happened. I think their was a drop-off in his rebounding around that time. Wes was trying to be a 20rpg guy (one of his main goals) but he couldn't get close to that level anymore after the injury.

Young Wes was also more active on offense. Looked for his own shot more which was a good thing because he had skills. He had a solid jump-shot to go along with those passing skills and bone-crushing screens of his. He should have shot the ball more often he did.

Older Wes was a more limited and less effectual player. Young Wes didn't win a ring but he led his team to the Finals and won an MVP a different season. I would absolutely go with one of the young Wes seasons. He was a much better basketball back then.

[Who]

Are people not really concerned with the diminished value most players will get as their usage decreases?

My main concern is what can they do to help their team when their usage does decrease. For guys that do not offer much else, it is a big concern. For guys that do other things, it is an opportunity to see them play a different role which is exciting (a more team based role).

How well can a guy play when he the ball less?
How much influence can he still have?

It is one of the reasons why I rated KG so highly prior to the drafted and strongly considered taking him at #5. He can have a huge impact on a game while scoring only 12-15ppg because of his dominant defense, high level rebounding and high post offense (shooting, passing) which enables team offense and makes the game easier for his teammates. Which is a strong contribution in addition to his own individual scoring threat.

On your team, Bill Walton is an obvious candidate at that. Michael Jordan is also a strong candidate. Even when scoring less, MJ is still a fantastic defensive player (both man D and team D) and extra possession creator (rebounds, steals, blocks) as well as understanding how to play off the ball and use off ball movement to create easier opportunities for himself (raising efficiency). Add that to excellent playmaking ability (key with Joe D at PG) and elite shot creation and scoring ability - fantastic.

Shooting ability also creates good value for stretching the floor and making it easier for teammates to exploit defenses. Guys like Chris Mullin and Klay Thompson on your team are some of the standout shooters in the league at their respective positions. Dirk on my team - I thought Dirk did more to help his guards (offensively) than any other big in history because of both the space he created and the fear opposing teams had of giving him room to get an open shot off.

The opposite is also true. Guys who cannot shoot with range hurt teammates value. On your team - Rodman. On my team - Wilt. Wilt's lane clogging also reduces space for others to operate in the low post. I passed up on a number of players because of that (Kevin McHale = who I love). It was too easy for the paint to become too congested.

Anyway, those are my thoughts about usage. My concern is "what else can players do when their usage drops?". And how well players can handle sharing the ball more.

[tazzmaniac]

Are people not really concerned with the diminished value most players will get as their usage decreases?

My main concern is what can they do to help their team when their usage does decrease. For guys that do not offer much else, it is a big concern. For guys that do other things, it is an opportunity to see them play a different role which is exciting (a more team based role).

How well can a guy play when he the ball less?
How much influence can he still have?

It is one of the reasons why I rated KG so highly prior to the drafted and strongly considered taking him at #5. He can have a huge impact on a game while scoring only 12-15ppg because of his dominant defense, high level rebounding and high post offense (shooting, passing) which enables team offense and makes the game easier for his teammates. Which is a strong contribution in addition to his own individual scoring threat.

On your team, Bill Walton is an obvious candidate at that. Michael Jordan is also a strong candidate. Even when scoring less, MJ is still a fantastic defensive player (both man D and team D) and extra possession creator (rebounds, steals, blocks) as well as understanding how to play off the ball and use off ball movement to create easier opportunities for himself (raising efficiency). Add that to excellent playmaking ability (key with Joe D at PG) and elite shot creation and scoring ability - fantastic.

Shooting ability also creates good value for stretching the floor and making it easier for teammates to exploit defenses. Guys like Chris Mullin and Klay Thompson on your team are some of the standout shooters in the league at their respective positions. Dirk on my team - I thought Dirk did more to help his guards (offensively) than any other big in history because of both the space he created and the fear opposing teams had of giving him room to get an open shot off.

The opposite is also true. Guys who cannot shoot with range hurt teammates value. On your team - Rodman. On my team - Wilt. Wilt's lane clogging also reduces space for others to operate in the low post. I passed up on a number of players because of that (Kevin McHale = who I love). It was too easy for the paint to become too congested.

Anyway, those are my thoughts about usage. My concern is "what else can players do when their usage drops?". And how well players can handle sharing the ball more.

I wouldn't have passed on McHale.  He had a solid jump shot and was a good free throw shooter.  I'd be comfortable projecting him as league average from 3 in the modern era.  He was a good versatile defender.  He brings a lot to the table besides his excellent low post scoring.  He also wasn't a particularly high usage player.