2019 Historical: How Does My Team Look Thread

[Silky]

So now that the draft is done, I thought it would be fun to see who wasn't drafted.

The only MVP not drafted was Russell Westbrook.  A bit surprised given some of the players drafted, but not terribly surprising given his inefficient game and difficulty to fit into an all time team type structure.

3 DPOY's were not drafted: Rudy Gobert, Joakim Noah, and Tyson Chandler.  Again no surprises there. 

Jo Jo White is the only Finals MVP to not be selected.

The players from ESPN's top 100 that were not drafted were: Westbrook (49), Adrian Dantley (72), Blake Griffin (75), Paul Arizin (90), Maurice Cheeks (91), Lenny Wilkens (93), Marc Gasol (95), Kevin Love (99)

Dantley at 28th all time has the most points scored of any player not selected.  Hal Greer, Walt Bellamy, Joe Johnson, Antawn Jamison, Clifford Robinson, Walter Davis, and Terry Cummings are all in the top 50. 

Richard Hamilton has the most career playoff points of every player not selected (37th all time) and just ahead of Westbrook at 39th all time.  Byron Scott and Derek Fisher are the only other 2 players in the top 50 of playoff points not selected.

Griffin and Westbrook were on my radar for my last pick
johnson and jamison for my second to last pick.

I kind of though Gasol would get picked, DPOY, passer, scorer, rebounder, range. surprised he didnt honestly.

[nickagneta]

Silky, I don’t have a good sense of your age. Did you watch Stockton play? He wasn’t the defensive pushover against bigger or faster players that you’re making him out to be.

He was crafty, and was a bit dirty on that end, akin to how the 2008 Celts played physical defense.

Gotta agree with Roy here. Sorry Silky, your Stockton criticism rings hollow and wrong here. Stockton was a top notch defensive PG that made every PG he went up against have to really work for anything they got. He was deceptively strong and quick and had excellent hand eye coordination which made knocking balls away and getting steals very easy for Stockton.

[Somebody]

Alright, this is the Detroit Pistons after the end of the draft.

PG: John Stockton / Derek Harper

SG: John Havlicek / Michael Cooper / Pete Maravich

SF: Kawhi Leonard / Jimmy Butler

PF: Elvin Hayes / Larry Nance / Hedo Turkoglu

C : Alonzo Mourning / Dikembe Mutombo

------------------------------

Did you know, in the history of the NBA, only four teams have won the NBA Championship without having an MVP winner on their team? One is the '18-'19 Toronto Raptors. The other three? 

'88-'89 Detroit Pistons
'89-'90 Detroit Pistons
'03-'04 Detroit Pistons

The biggest factor to that Raptors win was Kawhi Leonard. The biggest factor to those three title winning Detroit teams was intense, suffocating, tough, hard nosed defense.

We have combined both to form a single entity. This is the CStrong Historical Draft Detroit Pistons! This team, from top to bottom (apart from the two end of bench guys), features players who have been an All-NBA Defender, with some of them winning the Defensive Player of the Year in their own rights. I built this team with one identity in mind, and it's defense, and I'm proud to say that we at Detroit have accomplished that.

The Starters:

PG: John Stockton - '88-'89:
(All-Star, All-NBA 2nd team, All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team, League leader in AST and STL per game)

SG: John Havlicek - '71-'72:
(All-Star, All-NBA 1st Team, All-NBA Defensive 1st team, League leader in Minutes per game, 4th in MVP voting)

SF: Kawhi Leonard - '15-'16:
(All-Star, All-NBA 1st Team, All-NBA Defensive 1st team, Defensive Player of the Year, 2nd in MVP voting)

PF: Elvin Hayes - '74-'75:
(All-Star, All-NBA 1st Team, All-NBA Defense 2nd Team, 3rd in MVP voting)

C: Alonzo Mourning - '98-'99:
(All-NBA 1st Team, All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, Defensive Player of the Year, League leader in Blocks per game, 2nd in MVP voting)

From the PG spot to the Center spot, this team boasts a tough defensive unit. Two DPOY winners, all making All-Defensive teams, this is one of, if not the best defensive starting 5 in the league. Along with the defense, comes the talent. All but John Stockton made All-NBA 1st teams, with three of them ranking within the top 3 in NBA MVP votings.

Defense, talent, and more importantly, there's a great deal of balance within this team. Everybody are capable on their own, but all are willing to play within a team, and there are no overwhelming presence. There are playmakers within the team with Stockton and Hondo. Great one on one scoring in Kawhi Leonard. There's inside scoring with the Big E and Zo on board. Floor spacing wouldn't be a problem as all are capable shooters in their own rights, with our bigs being able to extend their offensive game within 18-20 feet.

Just like the title winning Detroit Pistons and Toronto Raptors, this team is not loaded with top end, recognized name talents, but they are as talented, and are also relentless and tough, that could dominate on either ends of the court.

Bench mob:

PG: Derek Harper - '89-'90:
(All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team, League leader in games played)

SG: Michael Cooper - '86-'87:
(NBA Champion, All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, Defensive Player of the Year, League leader in games played)

SF: Jimmy Butler - '17-'18:
(All-Star, All-NBA 3rd Team, All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team)

PF: Larry Nance - '88-'89:
(All-Star, All-NBA Defensive 1st Team)

C: Dikembe Mutombo - '94 - '95:
(All-Star, All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team, Defensive Player of the Year, League leader in BLK per game and games played)

Coming off our bench are another bunch of hard nosed, defense oriented, team players. This bench unit sports TWO DPOY winners, and all of them, like the starters, have made All-Defensive teams. Simply put, there's ZERO days off on opposing teams' offense when they play us. When one or two of our starters sit, the guys that will replace them will give as much effort on defense and toughness as they are. Jimmy Butler will be our main scoring option off the bench, while Larry Nance and Derek Harper provide some added scoring punch. Michael Cooper will shut down any perimeter player when he comes in, and Dikembe Mutombo will protect the rim. As with the starters, this bench mob sports excellent balance, with team oriented players capable of fitting in with just about any lineup we can put out.

Deep Bench:

"Pistol" Pete Maravich - '76-'77:
(All-Star, All-NBA 1st Team, Scoring Champion, League leader in minutes played per game)

Hedo Turkoglu - '07-'08:
(NBA Most Improved Player)

It's almost blasphemous to suggest that a talent of Pistol's caliber will be nothing more than an end of bench guy coming off the bench. We value his scoring, shooting and playmaking, and on certain situations where we need more points, he's certainly going to come in and drop buckets. Unfortunately, his lack of defensive effort has made him nothing more than a specialist for this team.

With all due respect to Hedo Turkoglu, but the only reason he's in this team is to bring in Jimmy Butler. He won't see any minutes on this squad, unless there's foul trouble with the bigs.

------------------------------

Defense, top talent, balance. That's your Detroit Pistons.

(And just for fun, imagine this for one second.

Your team is down one, with less than 5 seconds left, and you're going against Detroit. This is the lineup you're going against.

Cooper - Havlicek - Leonard - Hayes - Mutombo.

That would be fun, eh?)

you have a very solid starting lineup defensively, but I believe mine trumps yours.

The advantage I have is speed and the ability to switch. Hakeem can defend anyone PG-Center, Payton PG or Sg, Kobe PG-SF, Dandridge PG-SF, and Dave sg-c.

That, I believe, makes my lineup stronger defensively as some of your guys are limited to their postions, like Mourning and Stockton.

Eh, IDK about that. I might give you Elvin Hayes, but he was a mobile and active dude in the 70s as well, one could assume that his mobility would translate in the modern game full of switches. Same goes with Zo, who is one of the more mobile Centers in the 90s. He could easily adjust to the switching.

We already know Kawhi can do it. He won two DPOY's playing the defense he does in the modern game.

Hondo can run until the lights burn out. Speed won't be a problem for him.

And John Stockton? He's more of a disruptor and smarts on defense that a one on one guy. I'm not concerned about him as much as speed, because he would know where he'd position himself on defense to disrupt anything.

The other thing that separates our teams is the bench. Our bench unit would continue on the barrage of tough, hard nosed, All-NBA level defense, with TWO DPOY winners coming off of it. There's no rest for the wicked against the Detroit Pistons, whether you're going against the starters or not.

Fair enough, I dont belive your starting lineup has the defensive switchability as vast as mine.

Mourning I dont think would be able to guard PGs.
Hayes I dont think could guard SGs.
Stockton was a good team defender, but if isolated can be exposed.

You probably have the tops bench defense though. Not much offense on it, but great defense.

I don't think DeBusschere can cover PGs/SGs. He was a bulky forward with some quickness, not a quick forward with some bulk. And you're definitely not getting away with putting Kobe on anyone but the weakest offensive perimeter player in this game. I also think that Payton would struggle against quicker PGs, which teams in this game have in spades. Dandridge and Hakeem are great though, but I think you overrate your team's defense just because a few of your guys had such romanticised reputations.

Also Stockton isn't getting exposed at PG in man defense lol.

Dave was known to defend all positions on the floor from sg-center. I never claimed he would defend PGs, but he could certainly not be a turnstyle when isolated on a switch.

Your Kobe hatred blinds you to the fact that Kobe was an all world defender for most of his career. a 9 time 1st team and a 3 time second team. You cannot just brush that away and state he is not defending the best players on the other team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBu28UwDzps
Kobe was a beast defensively, second at his postion only to Jordan.

Payton defended both large and strong and small and quick pointguards his entire career and shut them down. There was a litany of speedy guards in the NBA during his time, and he still won DPOY and multiple all nba defensive 1st teams.

Stockton was best a team defender first. that is pretty common acceptance. Stockton was not athletic, Was not the biggest and was not overly strong, but always played incredibly hard and was always in fantastic shape.  But when being paired against all time nba talents he would get posted up by larger, stronger offensive talents, and he would get pulled outside by faster better shooting players.

Stockton would have a hard time with someone like Curry and had a hard time with guys like Magic.

Stockton could defend Payton well, but he can get picked on. The Bulls used to isolate Stockton on Jordan and he got absolutely abused, where as Payton held his own against mike.
Stocktons steals generally came from helping down on drives and helping down on postups. sneaking in there, I dont know if he gets those steals in this scenario as much as every position has threats, he will have a harder time cheating off his man.

Also Stockton was know for kicking, elbowing, pushing, tripping, flopping and got away with it, the rules now, not so much

I don't think Dave could've guarded SGs tbh, to me he was a combo forward who thrived with physicality and smarts instead of relying on amazing speed. And I don't give a care to accolades in this game-we're measuring how good the players are, not how glorified they were by casual fans. Kobe was only a great defender in his early frobe years, he dropped off to solid in his offensive peak. Your highlights are cherry picked-he was never able to sustain that level of defensive play for a whole game, and I can easily pick out clips where he was poor defensively. 
https://youtu.be/fztuNY6cjqA
https://youtu.be/pWllvQW2Jd4
Strong man to man defense on very selective occasions with very inconsistent effort levels does not scream spectacular to me, and it certainly is nowhere close to Jordan's. And Payton struggled to contain speedy guards, he was always at his defensive best when he guarded big guards like MJ due to his lack of foot speed (hence his heavy reliance on handchecking, which won't fly today).

This is not to say that your team isn't good defensively, but it's not all world in this game.

[Who]

Stockton was an over-rated defender. He worked his tail off and played as hard as he could but he was always limited by his lack of size.

He was a good defender rather than a great one.

[nickagneta]

Not getting the criticism that centers wouldn't be able to cover PGs or PFs wouldn't be able to cover SGs.

News flash.

None of the centers in this game would be able to cover the PGs of this game.

Also, almost none of the PFs in this game could cover SGs in this game.

[nickagneta]

Stockton was an over-rated defender. He worked his tail off and played as hard as he could but he was always limited by his lack of size.

He was a good defender rather than a great one.

Completely disagree that Stockton was an over rated defender. When it comes to history, he is rather, under-rated in my book.

[Somebody]

Not getting the criticism that centers wouldn't be able to cover PGs or PFs wouldn't be able to cover SGs.

News flash.

None of the centers in this game would be able to cover the PGs of this game.

Also, almost none of the PFs in this game could cover SGs in this game.

Silky was saying that his PF could guard 2-5 and his C could guard from 1-5.

[Who]

Atlanta Hawks

Starters
Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
Dirk Nowitzki 2010-11
Walt Frazier 1969-70
Paul Westphal 1978-79
Grant Hill 1996-97

Bench
George Gervin 1978-79
Ralph Sampson 1985-86
Robert Parish 1980-81
Marques Johnson 1977-78
Terry Porter 1989-90
Kevin Johnson 1988-89
Tom Chambers 1989-90

[Silky]

Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

The 3 point shooting question is an interesting one. I don't think we'll get any consensus on players. It will be more of an individual expectations sort of thing. So here are mine:

* Magic Johnson = Very accurate and would take a good number of 3s per game. Maybe 5 per game on 39% shooting. Something like that.
* Clyde Drexler = I thought he was an average shooter during his career and I would expect him to be the same today. So around 36% from 3. I do think he would take a high number of 3s though so that would help. Anywhere from 5-7 per game.
* James Worthy = I always thought his perimeter skills (shooting, handles, passing) were below average for a SF. He was devastatingly effective inside of 15 feet (especially as a scorer but also a good passer). So I have trouble considering him a three point shooter. I believe he'd be an undersized quick four in today's game. Maybe low volume low accuracy three point shooter. Say 2-3 per game on 32%.
* Charles Barkley = Barkley took a lot of 3s in his career. Generally 2-4 attempts a game for best part of 10 years. A total of 2,000 attempts over his career at 27% accuracy. He clearly did work on that part of his game. Would he work on it more today? Yes. But how much of a bump do you give him? I am not giving him much of a bump. 30-31% sort of accuracy and taking more 3s than you want him to take (3-4 attempts per game).

* Tony Parker = his career overlapped too much today's league for me to give him much a bump. Largely a non-threat from 3 (edit: low threat I should say = very small volume).
* Dennis Johnson = Marcus Smart the bad years level 3 point shooter
* Alex English = Great midrange shooter and interior shooter. Good outside shooter. I think he'd have a reliable three point shot. Lower volume three with average to slightly above average accuracy.
* Alvin Robertson = low volume shooter (never the most skilled or comfortable shooter). Slightly below average accuracy but decent enough.

I think Magic would be a fine 3pt shooter. Above league average there. But I dont think he would have shot alot from there. Instead using his size in postups.

Clyde I think would have a game similar, yet obviously better than, Demar Derozans. He wouldnt take many 3s, nor would he make that many. I think he would stick with long 2s, fadeaways and scoring on drives. I do think he would have gotten to the line more in todays game.

Most of the rest would be below league average at best.

In the 91-92 season, Clyde shot 4.4 3's a game and hit at 33.7%, which was just above the league average of 33.1%.  He peaked at 5.4 attempts in 94-95 and shot 36%.  Clyde would have shot a lot more and hit them at a much higher percentage under modern rules.  He would have been a very good if not great 3 point shooter and would have a very high volume.  He wouldn't have the volume of someone like Harden and wouldn't be so ball dominant, but I think he would be that sort of offensive player.  Excellent ball handler, good size, great vision, an excellent finisher, and a very good outside shooter. 

Magic, by the end of his career, had developed a pretty decent 3 point shot.  In fact, generally speaking the more attempts he had, the better he was at shooting them setting his career attempt record of 3.5 and percentage of 38.4% in the 89-90 season.  I think you put him in modern times and he, like Clyde, would be a very good if not great 3 point shooter, especially during his prime.  Probably very similar to someone like Lebron James. 

I don't think Worthy would have extended out to the 3 point line much as that wasn't his style of play, but I absolutely think Alex English would have.  English would have been an excellent 3 point shooter given just how efficient and good he was at scoring in general.  He would have developed the 3 point shot and he would have been deadly.  DJ and Robertson also would have developed the outside shot and would have both been prototypical 3 and D players.  That would have been their bread and butter.  Parker has always been a good 3 point shooter, but was never a volume guy.  I think in the fast break offense with a lot of open looks, he would have been a great shooter.  Not super elite, but well above average.

My bigs aren't great outside shooters, though I do think Barkley would be better, though obviously had a touch of shooting too much from deep.  Today though, I think he develops the shot a lot better early on because he made the effort to get better at it in a time when it wasn't as prolific.  I do think Daugherty would have been a stretch 5 in the modern rules.  He was very athletic, lean, but yet strong.  He always had a nice shooting touch.  I think someone like Gasol is a decent comparison at least offensively. 

At the end of the day, there is enough outside shooting there, but a dunk is the best shot in basketball and this team would be dunking galore.  A shot from inside 3 feet still equates to more points than a team gunning 3's over the course of a game.  It is simple matter of percentages.

OK, I will give you the Clyde one, especially if you are chosing one of those higher shooting years as your year.

35.5% was last season league average of 3pt%.
A league average shooting 3pt gunning team would put up 106.5ppg on 100 3pt shots
to get the same from 2pt shots your team would need to shoot 53% from 2.

I know those are rough averages, but I dont see how a team that is gunning threes will equate to fewer points than a team shooting from 3 feet inside the 3pt line.

I said from inside 3 feet.  Not all 2 pointers.  Most players shoot in the 65-70% from inside 3 feet.  The super elite ones (which let's face this league has) are all in the 75-80% range from inside 3 feet.   But even just taking 2 point % in its entirety, Barkley was shooting over 60% from 2 for 5 straight years and has a career percentage of 58%. Magic's career 2PT% is 54%.   Worthy and Daugherty 53%.  Parker 51%. Drexler, Moses, English, and Robertson, are all in the 50% range (some a bit above some a bit below).  Outside of Mikan, DJ has the lowest career 2PT% at 45.5%, with Wallace at 47.7% (and we all know Wallace is a terrible shooter).  And that is career averages, not their better more efficient seasons, English, for example, had consecutive seasons of 55.3%, 51.9%, 53.1%, 51.9% from 2. 

And let's be clear it is not a coincidence that the Showtime Lakers have incredibly high 2 point percentages.  They have them because they were running up and down the floor and getting easy to make baskets (which is also one of the reasons Barkley was so efficient).  The dunk is the highest percentage shot in basketball.

ah, I misunderstood. I thought you was referencing 3 feet inside the 3pt line.

[Silky]

Alright, this is the Detroit Pistons after the end of the draft.

PG: John Stockton / Derek Harper

SG: John Havlicek / Michael Cooper / Pete Maravich

SF: Kawhi Leonard / Jimmy Butler

PF: Elvin Hayes / Larry Nance / Hedo Turkoglu

C : Alonzo Mourning / Dikembe Mutombo

------------------------------

Did you know, in the history of the NBA, only four teams have won the NBA Championship without having an MVP winner on their team? One is the '18-'19 Toronto Raptors. The other three? 

'88-'89 Detroit Pistons
'89-'90 Detroit Pistons
'03-'04 Detroit Pistons

The biggest factor to that Raptors win was Kawhi Leonard. The biggest factor to those three title winning Detroit teams was intense, suffocating, tough, hard nosed defense.

We have combined both to form a single entity. This is the CStrong Historical Draft Detroit Pistons! This team, from top to bottom (apart from the two end of bench guys), features players who have been an All-NBA Defender, with some of them winning the Defensive Player of the Year in their own rights. I built this team with one identity in mind, and it's defense, and I'm proud to say that we at Detroit have accomplished that.

The Starters:

PG: John Stockton - '88-'89:
(All-Star, All-NBA 2nd team, All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team, League leader in AST and STL per game)

SG: John Havlicek - '71-'72:
(All-Star, All-NBA 1st Team, All-NBA Defensive 1st team, League leader in Minutes per game, 4th in MVP voting)

SF: Kawhi Leonard - '15-'16:
(All-Star, All-NBA 1st Team, All-NBA Defensive 1st team, Defensive Player of the Year, 2nd in MVP voting)

PF: Elvin Hayes - '74-'75:
(All-Star, All-NBA 1st Team, All-NBA Defense 2nd Team, 3rd in MVP voting)

C: Alonzo Mourning - '98-'99:
(All-NBA 1st Team, All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, Defensive Player of the Year, League leader in Blocks per game, 2nd in MVP voting)

From the PG spot to the Center spot, this team boasts a tough defensive unit. Two DPOY winners, all making All-Defensive teams, this is one of, if not the best defensive starting 5 in the league. Along with the defense, comes the talent. All but John Stockton made All-NBA 1st teams, with three of them ranking within the top 3 in NBA MVP votings.

Defense, talent, and more importantly, there's a great deal of balance within this team. Everybody are capable on their own, but all are willing to play within a team, and there are no overwhelming presence. There are playmakers within the team with Stockton and Hondo. Great one on one scoring in Kawhi Leonard. There's inside scoring with the Big E and Zo on board. Floor spacing wouldn't be a problem as all are capable shooters in their own rights, with our bigs being able to extend their offensive game within 18-20 feet.

Just like the title winning Detroit Pistons and Toronto Raptors, this team is not loaded with top end, recognized name talents, but they are as talented, and are also relentless and tough, that could dominate on either ends of the court.

Bench mob:

PG: Derek Harper - '89-'90:
(All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team, League leader in games played)

SG: Michael Cooper - '86-'87:
(NBA Champion, All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, Defensive Player of the Year, League leader in games played)

SF: Jimmy Butler - '17-'18:
(All-Star, All-NBA 3rd Team, All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team)

PF: Larry Nance - '88-'89:
(All-Star, All-NBA Defensive 1st Team)

C: Dikembe Mutombo - '94 - '95:
(All-Star, All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team, Defensive Player of the Year, League leader in BLK per game and games played)

Coming off our bench are another bunch of hard nosed, defense oriented, team players. This bench unit sports TWO DPOY winners, and all of them, like the starters, have made All-Defensive teams. Simply put, there's ZERO days off on opposing teams' offense when they play us. When one or two of our starters sit, the guys that will replace them will give as much effort on defense and toughness as they are. Jimmy Butler will be our main scoring option off the bench, while Larry Nance and Derek Harper provide some added scoring punch. Michael Cooper will shut down any perimeter player when he comes in, and Dikembe Mutombo will protect the rim. As with the starters, this bench mob sports excellent balance, with team oriented players capable of fitting in with just about any lineup we can put out.

Deep Bench:

"Pistol" Pete Maravich - '76-'77:
(All-Star, All-NBA 1st Team, Scoring Champion, League leader in minutes played per game)

Hedo Turkoglu - '07-'08:
(NBA Most Improved Player)

It's almost blasphemous to suggest that a talent of Pistol's caliber will be nothing more than an end of bench guy coming off the bench. We value his scoring, shooting and playmaking, and on certain situations where we need more points, he's certainly going to come in and drop buckets. Unfortunately, his lack of defensive effort has made him nothing more than a specialist for this team.

With all due respect to Hedo Turkoglu, but the only reason he's in this team is to bring in Jimmy Butler. He won't see any minutes on this squad, unless there's foul trouble with the bigs.

------------------------------

Defense, top talent, balance. That's your Detroit Pistons.

(And just for fun, imagine this for one second.

Your team is down one, with less than 5 seconds left, and you're going against Detroit. This is the lineup you're going against.

Cooper - Havlicek - Leonard - Hayes - Mutombo.

That would be fun, eh?)

you have a very solid starting lineup defensively, but I believe mine trumps yours.

The advantage I have is speed and the ability to switch. Hakeem can defend anyone PG-Center, Payton PG or Sg, Kobe PG-SF, Dandridge PG-SF, and Dave sg-c.

That, I believe, makes my lineup stronger defensively as some of your guys are limited to their postions, like Mourning and Stockton.

Eh, IDK about that. I might give you Elvin Hayes, but he was a mobile and active dude in the 70s as well, one could assume that his mobility would translate in the modern game full of switches. Same goes with Zo, who is one of the more mobile Centers in the 90s. He could easily adjust to the switching.

We already know Kawhi can do it. He won two DPOY's playing the defense he does in the modern game.

Hondo can run until the lights burn out. Speed won't be a problem for him.

And John Stockton? He's more of a disruptor and smarts on defense that a one on one guy. I'm not concerned about him as much as speed, because he would know where he'd position himself on defense to disrupt anything.

The other thing that separates our teams is the bench. Our bench unit would continue on the barrage of tough, hard nosed, All-NBA level defense, with TWO DPOY winners coming off of it. There's no rest for the wicked against the Detroit Pistons, whether you're going against the starters or not.

Fair enough, I dont belive your starting lineup has the defensive switchability as vast as mine.

Mourning I dont think would be able to guard PGs.
Hayes I dont think could guard SGs.
Stockton was a good team defender, but if isolated can be exposed.

You probably have the tops bench defense though. Not much offense on it, but great defense.

I don't think DeBusschere can cover PGs/SGs. He was a bulky forward with some quickness, not a quick forward with some bulk. And you're definitely not getting away with putting Kobe on anyone but the weakest offensive perimeter player in this game. I also think that Payton would struggle against quicker PGs, which teams in this game have in spades. Dandridge and Hakeem are great though, but I think you overrate your team's defense just because a few of your guys had such romanticised reputations.

Also Stockton isn't getting exposed at PG in man defense lol.

Dave was known to defend all positions on the floor from sg-center. I never claimed he would defend PGs, but he could certainly not be a turnstyle when isolated on a switch.

Your Kobe hatred blinds you to the fact that Kobe was an all world defender for most of his career. a 9 time 1st team and a 3 time second team. You cannot just brush that away and state he is not defending the best players on the other team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBu28UwDzps
Kobe was a beast defensively, second at his postion only to Jordan.

Payton defended both large and strong and small and quick pointguards his entire career and shut them down. There was a litany of speedy guards in the NBA during his time, and he still won DPOY and multiple all nba defensive 1st teams.

Stockton was best a team defender first. that is pretty common acceptance. Stockton was not athletic, Was not the biggest and was not overly strong, but always played incredibly hard and was always in fantastic shape.  But when being paired against all time nba talents he would get posted up by larger, stronger offensive talents, and he would get pulled outside by faster better shooting players.

Stockton would have a hard time with someone like Curry and had a hard time with guys like Magic.

Stockton could defend Payton well, but he can get picked on. The Bulls used to isolate Stockton on Jordan and he got absolutely abused, where as Payton held his own against mike.
Stocktons steals generally came from helping down on drives and helping down on postups. sneaking in there, I dont know if he gets those steals in this scenario as much as every position has threats, he will have a harder time cheating off his man.

Also Stockton was know for kicking, elbowing, pushing, tripping, flopping and got away with it, the rules now, not so much

1. You don't have Michael Jordan.
2. Stockton got steals off of one on one defense as well. When people think they can "abuse" him, he's swipe the ball clean off their hands.
3. The legends of the game seem to disagree about the notion that he's not athletic, or strong.

Here's a 26 minute clip of greats telling the world how good Stockton is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB4lYjpDLYk&t=212s

1. I have Kobe, and I was making a point.
2. No not really, its pretty common acceptance that a vast majority of his steals, and what made him special defensively, was his stripping of the ball away from bigs. As evidenced by a video I posted.
3. He wasnt, again pretty common agreeance there, but he was craft as all get out. at 6'1 he is a small guard, he wasnt a freak athlete like alot of other PGs in this game. But he was strong, and he was tough, he was gritty and crafty.

1. Kobe is not Michael. Similar style of games doesn't mean similar levels of physicality. And besides, in this exercise, Stockton won't defend Kobe, Kawhi will. So I really don't know the reason behind this point.

2. I'm not denying what you mentioned. It's true that he got the brunt of his steals helping out, denying passing lanes, etc., but it doesn't mean what I said wasn't true either. Stockton got steals defending players one on one.

3. We just have to agree to disagree here. NBA players themselves think John is an underrated athlete and an underrated strong player. I think I'd lean towards the guys who played against him.

1. The point was about size. Not kobe versus jordan. John did not do well against bigger players. Magic played very well against him penny. Large tall guards that could shoot ober him bested him.

2.he did get steals playing man to man. But if a player gives up 40 points but gets 3 steals on that same player that that game would you say he played great defense?

3. Agreed. Although I will add that outside if payton i dont think anyone would say somethibg negative about a player after all are retired

Who's going to score 40 against Stockton one on one? You'd have to have that guy control most of the possessions all game, which is good for us. It would limit the rest of the team's involvement.

And Gary Payton PRAISED John Stockton. He said for him, he's harder to guard than MJ.

Payton did say Stockton was hard to guard, but that doesnt change my opinion on the best way to neutralize stockton

[Silky]

Not getting the criticism that centers wouldn't be able to cover PGs or PFs wouldn't be able to cover SGs.

News flash.

None of the centers in this game would be able to cover the PGs of this game.

Also, almost none of the PFs in this game could cover SGs in this game.

Silky was saying that his PF could guard 2-5 and his C could guard from 1-5.

Hakeem did guard 1-5. Not for the full game, but if he got caught on a switch it wasnt a mismatch.\

And Dave guarded 2-5.

[Silky]

Not getting the criticism that centers wouldn't be able to cover PGs or PFs wouldn't be able to cover SGs.

News flash.

None of the centers in this game would be able to cover the PGs of this game.

Also, almost none of the PFs in this game could cover SGs in this game.

Hakeem and Dave both could.

Hakeem wasnt at a mismatch if switched out onto any other position, and dave guarded 2-5 throughout his career.

If you made a top 5 list of most versatile defenders in NBA history it would have
Rodman
Hakeem
Dave
Jones
Scottie

thats the list

[nickagneta]

Not getting the criticism that centers wouldn't be able to cover PGs or PFs wouldn't be able to cover SGs.

News flash.

None of the centers in this game would be able to cover the PGs of this game.

Also, almost none of the PFs in this game could cover SGs in this game.

Hakeem and Dave both could.

Hakeem wasnt at a mismatch if switched out onto any other position, and dave guarded 2-5 throughout his career.

If you made a top 5 list of most versatile defenders in NBA history it would have
Rodman
Hakeem
Dave
Jones
Scottie

thats the list

No Hakeem and DeBusschere could not guard PGs and SGs in this league. Both could possibly do well in PnR defense with those positions for a few moments or possessions.

But if teams are doing 1-5 switches and Hakeem is on an island with the best PGs ever in their best season for extended time, he will be giving up lots of points. Same for DeBusschere with the SGs in this game.

That's no knock on those guys. As I said I don't think that any centers or many PFs could do these things in this game against those players.

[Silky]

Stockton was an over-rated defender. He worked his tail off and played as hard as he could but he was always limited by his lack of size.

He was a good defender rather than a great one.

Thank you.

Someone on my side of things here.

eople get blinded by the steals, at which he was the greatest.

But just look at his head to head against magic.

29 games
Magic 20/6/11 (Career 19/7/11)
Stockton 10/2/11

Payton 17/4/6.6 (16/4/625)
Stockton 14/3/10

Kevin Johnson 19/3/8 (18/3.3/9)
Stockton 15/3/13

Kidd 16/5/9 (12.5/6.5/8.5)
Stockton 13/2.5/9

Thomas 23/3.5/7.8 (19/3.5/9.5)
Stockton 13/2/11

None of those players averages against Stockton were far off of what their career averages was.


And keep in mind that Stockton got to play for a great coach, in a great system with a top 30 player all time for 18 years!!

Without Hornacek, without Ostertag, Without Mark Eaton and most importantly, without Malone, Stockton would not be anything near what he is remembered as.
,

[Silky]

Not getting the criticism that centers wouldn't be able to cover PGs or PFs wouldn't be able to cover SGs.

News flash.

None of the centers in this game would be able to cover the PGs of this game.

Also, almost none of the PFs in this game could cover SGs in this game.

Hakeem and Dave both could.

Hakeem wasnt at a mismatch if switched out onto any other position, and dave guarded 2-5 throughout his career.

If you made a top 5 list of most versatile defenders in NBA history it would have
Rodman
Hakeem
Dave
Jones
Scottie

thats the list

No Hakeem and DeBusschere could not guard PGs and SGs in this league. Both could possibly do well in PnR defense with those positions for a few moments or possessions.

But if teams are doing 1-5 switches and Hakeem is on an island with the best PGs ever in their best season for extended time, he will be giving up lots of points. Same for DeBusschere with the SGs in this game.

That's no knock on those guys. As I said I don't think that any centers or many PFs could do these things in this game against those players.

I agree, as was my original point.

My guys could do that, the others couldnt.

Isolating Hakeem a play or 2 out at the 3pt line will get a heavily contested shot. Most likely. Dave would put up a fight and get the offensive person to have to make a difficult shot. would they make it? probably as these are the best players of all time, but they will work for it. and that pays off in the end