Happy we kept our picks and took it slow With Robert Williams

[nickagneta]

Oops I guess he made six good passes. Whoopie. He is not some great passer. He made a few good passes. Like I said, his passing will top out as being as good as other standard big men like Baynes, Amir Johnson or Theis. That is it.

I'm not sure Williams will become an elite passer in the NBA either. Big men that become elite passers typically need to be high usage players. That's something I don't see happening with Williams. Non-scorers like Joakim Noah that become elite passers are pretty rare. The play style is prohibitive to it.

Still, big men in the modern NBA need to be able to move the ball, hit backcuts, hit the opposite corner on pick-and-rolls, and run hand-offs out front. It's one of the thing that separates average offenses from good offenses, and fringe starting big men from solid starting big men.

To see that Robert Williams has the raw talent as a passer to be a starting caliber big is exciting, even if he may not be absolutely elite at it.

Again, the raw talent he has on offense that includes the gravity he holds diving to the rim, offensive rebounding, and passing, makes his potential to add to a team offense pretty good.

As I stated earlier, the main concern that I have (the raw talent I haven't see as much) is his defensive rotations. He has to develop everything, but he has shown the raw talent on offense and big defensive plays. The main area of improvement needed is his defensive positioning.

His offense is terrible. His picks and screens are weak. He moves way to early on PnRs. He avoids contact in getting to a spot down low, seemingly happy at times to hang in open space. His mid range shot is spotty, though the form strong. And he apparently was able to pick up so little of the offense last year that Williams was relegated, in most possessions, to hanging on the backline waiting for the 4 other players to create something where he could quickly fly to the rim for an alley oop or a loud outback.

And his defensive rotations, positioning and awareness was poor.

I love his raw ability and loved him in his freshman year at A&M. I thought he would be a long term 4 year project. He showed little last year. I don't expect much but a lot of time in Maine this year and expect seeing results next year. 

But by year 4 I still think he could emerge as a Clint Capella like player.

[Hoopvortex]

Oops I guess he made six good passes. Whoopie. He is not some great passer. He made a few good passes. Like I said, his passing will top out as being as good as other standard big men like Baynes, Amir Johnson or Theis. That is it.

Thanks for your concession (however grudging!). My experience online has often been that people lack the grace to concede at all, even when they recognize that they're wrong.

I did not claim that he made only a total of six "good passes". Obviously Tomas highlighted those because they all led to scores, and he did us all the favor of packaging them in a video of a few minutes.

We'll see how your prediction turns out, of course. I note also that elsewhere you predicted that he'll play fewer than 440 minutes this whole upcoming season - no wonder, given your low estimate of his BBIQ and skills. But I think that you'll be surprised.

His passing is one of the two things that really got my attention about him in SL this year; the other was his body - how he lands after jumping, in particular; I thought that last season he was favoring his knees, which could lead to injury and a short career. He would land with flexed knees - no wonder he was dealing with quadriceps tendinitis.  His knees are both still elaborately wrapped, but I thought his form was really good. May he not be stopped by his body!

As I've written elsewhere, these two things are evidence of a work ethic and a willingness to be coached.

[Hoopvortex]

Oops I guess he made six good passes. Whoopie. He is not some great passer. He made a few good passes. Like I said, his passing will top out as being as good as other standard big men like Baynes, Amir Johnson or Theis. That is it.

I'm not sure Williams will become an elite passer in the NBA either. Big men that become elite passers typically need to be high usage players. That's something I don't see happening with Williams. Non-scorers like Joakim Noah that become elite passers are pretty rare. The play style is prohibitive to it.

Still, big men in the modern NBA need to be able to move the ball, hit backcuts, hit the opposite corner on pick-and-rolls, and run hand-offs out front. It's one of the thing that separates average offenses from good offenses, and fringe starting big men from solid starting big men.

To see that Robert Williams has the raw talent as a passer to be a starting caliber big is exciting, even if he may not be absolutely elite at it.

Again, the raw talent he has on offense that includes the gravity he holds diving to the rim, offensive rebounding, and passing, makes his potential to add to a team offense pretty good.

As I stated earlier, the main concern that I have (the raw talent I haven't see as much) is his defensive rotations. He has to develop everything, but he has shown the raw talent on offense and big defensive plays. The main area of improvement needed is his defensive positioning.

I thought he would be a long term 4 year project. He showed little last year. I don't expect much but a lot of time in Maine this year and expect seeing results next year. 

But by year 4 I still think he could emerge as a Clint Capella like player.

As good, do you think? Capela is a starter on a contender. Is that Williams' upside?

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Oops I guess he made six good passes. Whoopie. He is not some great passer. He made a few good passes. Like I said, his passing will top out as being as good as other standard big men like Baynes, Amir Johnson or Theis. That is it.

I'm not sure Williams will become an elite passer in the NBA either. Big men that become elite passers typically need to be high usage players. That's something I don't see happening with Williams. Non-scorers like Joakim Noah that become elite passers are pretty rare. The play style is prohibitive to it.

Still, big men in the modern NBA need to be able to move the ball, hit backcuts, hit the opposite corner on pick-and-rolls, and run hand-offs out front. It's one of the thing that separates average offenses from good offenses, and fringe starting big men from solid starting big men.

To see that Robert Williams has the raw talent as a passer to be a starting caliber big is exciting, even if he may not be absolutely elite at it.

Again, the raw talent he has on offense that includes the gravity he holds diving to the rim, offensive rebounding, and passing, makes his potential to add to a team offense pretty good.

As I stated earlier, the main concern that I have (the raw talent I haven't see as much) is his defensive rotations. He has to develop everything, but he has shown the raw talent on offense and big defensive plays. The main area of improvement needed is his defensive positioning.

His offense is terrible. His picks and screens are weak. He moves way to early on PnRs. He avoids contact in getting to a spot down low, seemingly happy at times to hang in open space. His mid range shot is spotty, though the form strong. And he apparently was able to pick up so little of the offense last year that Williams was relegated, in most possessions, to hanging on the backline waiting for the 4 other players to create something where he could quickly fly to the rim for an alley oop or a loud outback.

And his defensive rotations, positioning and awareness was poor.

I love his raw ability and loved him in his freshman year at A&M. I thought he would be a long term 4 year project. He showed little last year. I don't expect much but a lot of time in Maine this year and expect seeing results next year. 

But by year 4 I still think he could emerge as a Clint Capella like player.

There it is. This is the problem with forum discussions. I can't see your tone.

We wind up in the same place. We both see the same potential, but we also see that he is raw and needs time and development.

[nickagneta]

Oops I guess he made six good passes. Whoopie. He is not some great passer. He made a few good passes. Like I said, his passing will top out as being as good as other standard big men like Baynes, Amir Johnson or Theis. That is it.

I'm not sure Williams will become an elite passer in the NBA either. Big men that become elite passers typically need to be high usage players. That's something I don't see happening with Williams. Non-scorers like Joakim Noah that become elite passers are pretty rare. The play style is prohibitive to it.

Still, big men in the modern NBA need to be able to move the ball, hit backcuts, hit the opposite corner on pick-and-rolls, and run hand-offs out front. It's one of the thing that separates average offenses from good offenses, and fringe starting big men from solid starting big men.

To see that Robert Williams has the raw talent as a passer to be a starting caliber big is exciting, even if he may not be absolutely elite at it.

Again, the raw talent he has on offense that includes the gravity he holds diving to the rim, offensive rebounding, and passing, makes his potential to add to a team offense pretty good.

As I stated earlier, the main concern that I have (the raw talent I haven't see as much) is his defensive rotations. He has to develop everything, but he has shown the raw talent on offense and big defensive plays. The main area of improvement needed is his defensive positioning.

I thought he would be a long term 4 year project. He showed little last year. I don't expect much but a lot of time in Maine this year and expect seeing results next year. 

But by year 4 I still think he could emerge as a Clint Capella like player.

As good, do you think? Capela is a starter on a contender. Is that Williams' upside?

I am not sure he will be quite the rebounder but I think he has higher defensive upside.

And I may sound down on Timelord but I am not. I thought it would take three years for him to see rotational minutes. That might be pushed back a half season because, IMO, the Celtics did little to develop him last year by not having him getting tons of playing time in Maine. He didn't belong in Boston at all last year. He played and practiced little and maybe through little fault of his own, didn't develop.

So now, after seeing Summer League, I have seen some glimpses of development but only stuff he should have shown in Maine last year. So he is still developing slow in my opinion.

And I don't see the passing thing. Eventually he will be asked to make the right pass at the right time in the right situation, and he has the ability to do that. Much like most regular bigs in the league today. But he will never be asked to be creative with his passes because he just doesn't have that capability.

[rollie mass]

I have long believed the number of injuries to first year young players was a result pushing their bodies too soon against grown men in an overlong season for them.
Robert is not skinny but his strength and knees needed a year learning NBA lifestyle and learning how hard they work in weight room and in the gym..
The Red Claws he got 4 games  did very well in those minutes.
I would hate to see him injured in D league
A couple more months and we will see how hard he worked this off season.A recent article said the Celtics knew he was a project and they are all in for the long haul.
He has a young crew of hard workers around him maybe a few trips to Maine are in order but with some of his peers.

[Ogaju]

yall are wrong about his passing. He has a gift for it, period. It is not a matter of how many passes he made or did not make it is a matter of seeing that he has a flair for passing. It is an instinct that you cannot coach.

[mobilija]

yall are wrong about his passing. He has a gift for it, period. It is not a matter of how many passes he made or did not make it is a matter of seeing that he has a flair for passing. It is an instinct that you cannot coach.

Co-sign. TP

His scouting video I posted on the previous page attests to excellent floor vision, very good timing and accuracy of his passes. I think he’s a good passer bc he is unconfident (and unskilled) w putting the ball in the hoop... so something positive born of something negative.

[hwangjini_1]

yall are wrong about his passing. He has a gift for it, period. It is not a matter of how many passes he made or did not make it is a matter of seeing that he has a flair for passing. It is an instinct that you cannot coach.

i dont believe the majority of posters in this thread are arguing that TL cant pass, or is a bad/severely limited passer.

i think most people agree with your basic premise, which is that TL can pass credibly.

the bone of contention, such as it is, is HOW good a passer he will become.

[nickagneta]

yall are wrong about his passing. He has a gift for it, period. It is not a matter of how many passes he made or did not make it is a matter of seeing that he has a flair for passing. It is an instinct that you cannot coach.

Co-sign. TP

His scouting video I posted on the previous page attests to excellent floor vision, very good timing and accuracy of his passes. I think he’s a good passer bc he is unconfident (and unskilled) w putting the ball in the hoop... so something positive born of something negative.

He does not have good floor vision at all. People with good floor vision can anticipate where people are going, where they should be and know how to make unexpected passes into space because of it. Williams doesn't know where he is supposed to be on the court, never mind others or being able to anticipate where people are going. His floor vision isn't anywhere close to Tatum's and Brown's floor vision and people complain about those two's floor vision all the time.

He has the ability to make the right pass at the right time in the right spot. If he just does that, all the time when he is on the floor and playing with the full playbook(as Stevens simplified what he ran when Williams was in the game last year), that's great. I am not sure to expect more than that from him.

[rondofan1255]

At least the pick eventually used to select Timelord wasn't traded for a Tyreke Evans rental.

[mobilija]

yall are wrong about his passing. He has a gift for it, period. It is not a matter of how many passes he made or did not make it is a matter of seeing that he has a flair for passing. It is an instinct that you cannot coach.

Co-sign. TP

His scouting video I posted on the previous page attests to excellent floor vision, very good timing and accuracy of his passes. I think he’s a good passer bc he is unconfident (and unskilled) w putting the ball in the hoop... so something positive born of something negative.

He does not have good floor vision at all. People with good floor vision can anticipate where people are going, where they should be and know how to make unexpected passes into space because of it. Williams doesn't know where he is supposed to be on the court, never mind others or being able to anticipate where people are going. His floor vision isn't anywhere close to Tatum's and Brown's floor vision and people complain about those two's floor vision all the time.

He has the ability to make the right pass at the right time in the right spot. If he just does that, all the time when he is on the floor and playing with the full playbook(as Stevens simplified what he ran when Williams was in the game last year), that's great. I am not sure to expect more than that from him.

Did you watch either video?

It’s your opinion vs video evidence.

As far as my opinion, my eyeballs tell me he is looking at the whole court and making good reads, finding open players and players about to be open in a timely accurate fashion. I think that is very good for him at his stage of development. He can already pass like an adequate big, ie Baynes, Theis or Amir. Plus he seems to really like passing and coaching staff appears to be trying to exenuatevthat part of his game. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/07/boston-celtics-big-man-robert-williams-progression-in-las-vegas-shows-he-needs-minutes-to-grow-john-karalis.html%3foutputType=amp

As he grows, I expect this to become a real strength of his game. Hopefully my expectation comes true and not yours. I hope you become pleasantly surprised.

Edit: I should be clear that I don’t think he is a savant or anything. He’s not gonna be the Jason Kidd of big men or even necessarily as good as Al Horford at passing but I think this is one of the guy’s assets and will be his best offensive asset.

[Ogaju]

His passing execution is pretty good.

[bellerephon]

Williams is still very much a project, I expect he will spend most of the season in Maine.

[Ogaju]

Williams is still very much a project, I expect he will spend most of the season in Maine.

of course he will, Celtics are not very good at developing players. If you do not come ready made to the Cs you are pretty much toast.