2019 Historical Draft Thread(TIME TO REVEAL THE WINNER!!!)

[Roy H.]

That said, I'm with Silky in that I do think the Ewing love is a big higher than I'd expect, particularly for defense.  He was a 3x second-team all-defensive player ('88, '89, '92).

In '88, he got four votes for DPOY (tied for 5th place)
In '89, he got two votes for DPOY (6th place)
In '92 he didn't get a single vote for DPOY (while I happen to have three starters who received votes that year, heh)

Those were his only three all-defensive (second-team) seasons.  If I'm calling a spade a spade, then I'll say Ewing was a good defender.  Nothing more.  When we're looking at him in this game compared to all-time great defenders and their best defensive seasons?  He's a good defender, he can hold his own to some extent, but he's not an above average defender in this league.  He's clearly a rung below at least 7/12 centers -- Hakeem (if a C), Kareem, Russell, Walton, Mutumbo, Willis Reed, and David Robinson.  And is he definitely better than the others (Moses, Cowens, Shaq, Wilt) to take the claim of 8th best center in the league?  He's in that mix but I wouldn't say definitively the best of that bunch.

Oh and just for fun... 

Ewing was a really good defender. I don’t see any shame in being voted “only” the 5th or 6th best defender in a league of 400 players.

Context matters, though.  He was competing for the all-defense team with Hakeem, Robinson and Dikembe. Some years he beat them out, others he didn’t. All four of those guys are legit all-time defenders. And, like Hakeem and Robinson, Ewing was a great offensive player.

Ewing isn’t slow, or average. He’s just the third most dominant center of his era, behind Hakeem and the Admiral.

[nickagneta]

That said, I'm with Silky in that I do think the Ewing love is a big higher than I'd expect, particularly for defense.  He was a 3x second-team all-defensive player ('88, '89, '92).

In '88, he got four votes for DPOY (tied for 5th place)
In '89, he got two votes for DPOY (6th place)
In '92 he didn't get a single vote for DPOY (while I happen to have three starters who received votes that year, heh)

Those were his only three all-defensive (second-team) seasons.  If I'm calling a spade a spade, then I'll say Ewing was a good defender.  Nothing more.  When we're looking at him in this game compared to all-time great defenders and their best defensive seasons?  He's a good defender, he can hold his own to some extent, but he's not an above average defender in this league.  He's clearly a rung below at least 7/12 centers -- Hakeem (if a C), Kareem, Russell, Walton, Mutumbo, Willis Reed, and David Robinson.  And is he definitely better than the others (Moses, Cowens, Shaq, Wilt) to take the claim of 8th best center in the league?  He's in that mix but I wouldn't say definitively the best of that bunch.

Oh and just for fun... 

Ewing was a really good defender. I don’t see any shame in being voted “only” the 5th or 6th best defender in a league of 400 players.

Context matters, though.  He was competing for the all-defense team with Hakeem, Robinson and Dikembe. Some years he beat them out, others he didn’t. All four of those guys are legit all-time defenders. And, like Hakeem and Robinson, Ewing was a great offensive player.

Ewing isn’t slow, or average. He’s just the third most dominant center of his era, behind Hakeem and the Admiral.

There was also another, possibly all time, great defensive center he competed with in the 90's who eventually got his recognition in Ewing's late years.

But he hasn't been picked yet. I expect him to go tomorrow to some very lucky team.

[GreenFaith1819]

That said, I'm with Silky in that I do think the Ewing love is a big higher than I'd expect, particularly for defense.  He was a 3x second-team all-defensive player ('88, '89, '92).

In '88, he got four votes for DPOY (tied for 5th place)
In '89, he got two votes for DPOY (6th place)
In '92 he didn't get a single vote for DPOY (while I happen to have three starters who received votes that year, heh)

Those were his only three all-defensive (second-team) seasons.  If I'm calling a spade a spade, then I'll say Ewing was a good defender.  Nothing more.  When we're looking at him in this game compared to all-time great defenders and their best defensive seasons?  He's a good defender, he can hold his own to some extent, but he's not an above average defender in this league.  He's clearly a rung below at least 7/12 centers -- Hakeem (if a C), Kareem, Russell, Walton, Mutumbo, Willis Reed, and David Robinson.  And is he definitely better than the others (Moses, Cowens, Shaq, Wilt) to take the claim of 8th best center in the league?  He's in that mix but I wouldn't say definitively the best of that bunch.

Oh and just for fun... 

Ewing was a really good defender. I don’t see any shame in being voted “only” the 5th or 6th best defender in a league of 400 players.

Context matters, though.  He was competing for the all-defense team with Hakeem, Robinson and Dikembe. Some years he beat them out, others he didn’t. All four of those guys are legit all-time defenders. And, like Hakeem and Robinson, Ewing was a great offensive player.

Ewing isn’t slow, or average. He’s just the third most dominant center of his era, behind Hakeem and the Admiral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfxGMm4NehI

Can't believe the disrespect that Shaquille O'Neal is getting on here...dude even laced em up for BOS for a while.

The above clip is his shot blocking, only...I realize that shot-blocking is only a part of defending but make no mistake he patrolled and intimidated.

Shame that folks seemed to categorize his skill as just being bigger than anyone else and don't appear to give him credit for his timing and athleticism.

This seems to be the case...to ME, at least.

[Roy H.]

That said, I'm with Silky in that I do think the Ewing love is a big higher than I'd expect, particularly for defense.  He was a 3x second-team all-defensive player ('88, '89, '92).

In '88, he got four votes for DPOY (tied for 5th place)
In '89, he got two votes for DPOY (6th place)
In '92 he didn't get a single vote for DPOY (while I happen to have three starters who received votes that year, heh)

Those were his only three all-defensive (second-team) seasons.  If I'm calling a spade a spade, then I'll say Ewing was a good defender.  Nothing more.  When we're looking at him in this game compared to all-time great defenders and their best defensive seasons?  He's a good defender, he can hold his own to some extent, but he's not an above average defender in this league.  He's clearly a rung below at least 7/12 centers -- Hakeem (if a C), Kareem, Russell, Walton, Mutumbo, Willis Reed, and David Robinson.  And is he definitely better than the others (Moses, Cowens, Shaq, Wilt) to take the claim of 8th best center in the league?  He's in that mix but I wouldn't say definitively the best of that bunch.

Oh and just for fun... 

Ewing was a really good defender. I don’t see any shame in being voted “only” the 5th or 6th best defender in a league of 400 players.

Context matters, though.  He was competing for the all-defense team with Hakeem, Robinson and Dikembe. Some years he beat them out, others he didn’t. All four of those guys are legit all-time defenders. And, like Hakeem and Robinson, Ewing was a great offensive player.

Ewing isn’t slow, or average. He’s just the third most dominant center of his era, behind Hakeem and the Admiral.

There was also another, possibly all time, great defensive center he competed with in the 90's who eventually got his recognition in Ewing's late years.

But he hasn't been picked yet. I expect him to go tomorrow to some very lucky team.

Yep. And another from his early years who stole a lot of votes because he blocked a ton of shots.

[Roy H.]

That said, I'm with Silky in that I do think the Ewing love is a big higher than I'd expect, particularly for defense.  He was a 3x second-team all-defensive player ('88, '89, '92).

In '88, he got four votes for DPOY (tied for 5th place)
In '89, he got two votes for DPOY (6th place)
In '92 he didn't get a single vote for DPOY (while I happen to have three starters who received votes that year, heh)

Those were his only three all-defensive (second-team) seasons.  If I'm calling a spade a spade, then I'll say Ewing was a good defender.  Nothing more.  When we're looking at him in this game compared to all-time great defenders and their best defensive seasons?  He's a good defender, he can hold his own to some extent, but he's not an above average defender in this league.  He's clearly a rung below at least 7/12 centers -- Hakeem (if a C), Kareem, Russell, Walton, Mutumbo, Willis Reed, and David Robinson.  And is he definitely better than the others (Moses, Cowens, Shaq, Wilt) to take the claim of 8th best center in the league?  He's in that mix but I wouldn't say definitively the best of that bunch.

Oh and just for fun... 

Ewing was a really good defender. I don’t see any shame in being voted “only” the 5th or 6th best defender in a league of 400 players.

Context matters, though.  He was competing for the all-defense team with Hakeem, Robinson and Dikembe. Some years he beat them out, others he didn’t. All four of those guys are legit all-time defenders. And, like Hakeem and Robinson, Ewing was a great offensive player.

Ewing isn’t slow, or average. He’s just the third most dominant center of his era, behind Hakeem and the Admiral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfxGMm4NehI

Can't believe the disrespect that Shaquille O'Neal is getting on here...dude even laced em up for BOS for a while.

The above clip is his shot blocking, only...I realize that shot-blocking is only a part of defending but make no mistake he patrolled and intimidated.

Shame that folks seemed to categorize his skill as just being bigger than anyone else and don't appear to give him credit for his timing and athleticism.

This seems to be the case...to ME, at least.

I consider Ewing and Shaq to be from different eras.  In terms of defense, though, I’d slot Shaq behind all four of Hakeem, Admiral, Dikembe and Ewing.

In his best years, though, Shaq would be plenty good enough to defend in this league. I don’t think his defense is a tremendous strength for you, but it’s certainly not a weakness.

[nickagneta]

That said, I'm with Silky in that I do think the Ewing love is a big higher than I'd expect, particularly for defense.  He was a 3x second-team all-defensive player ('88, '89, '92).

In '88, he got four votes for DPOY (tied for 5th place)
In '89, he got two votes for DPOY (6th place)
In '92 he didn't get a single vote for DPOY (while I happen to have three starters who received votes that year, heh)

Those were his only three all-defensive (second-team) seasons.  If I'm calling a spade a spade, then I'll say Ewing was a good defender.  Nothing more.  When we're looking at him in this game compared to all-time great defenders and their best defensive seasons?  He's a good defender, he can hold his own to some extent, but he's not an above average defender in this league.  He's clearly a rung below at least 7/12 centers -- Hakeem (if a C), Kareem, Russell, Walton, Mutumbo, Willis Reed, and David Robinson.  And is he definitely better than the others (Moses, Cowens, Shaq, Wilt) to take the claim of 8th best center in the league?  He's in that mix but I wouldn't say definitively the best of that bunch.

Oh and just for fun... 

Ewing was a really good defender. I don’t see any shame in being voted “only” the 5th or 6th best defender in a league of 400 players.

Context matters, though.  He was competing for the all-defense team with Hakeem, Robinson and Dikembe. Some years he beat them out, others he didn’t. All four of those guys are legit all-time defenders. And, like Hakeem and Robinson, Ewing was a great offensive player.

Ewing isn’t slow, or average. He’s just the third most dominant center of his era, behind Hakeem and the Admiral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfxGMm4NehI

Can't believe the disrespect that Shaquille O'Neal is getting on here...dude even laced em up for BOS for a while.

The above clip is his shot blocking, only...I realize that shot-blocking is only a part of defending but make no mistake he patrolled and intimidated.

Shame that folks seemed to categorize his skill as just being bigger than anyone else and don't appear to give him credit for his timing and athleticism.

This seems to be the case...to ME, at least.

I consider Ewing and Shaq to be from different eras.  In terms of defense, though, I’d slot Shaq behind all four of Hakeem, Admiral, Dikembe and Ewing.

In his best years, though, Shaq would be plenty good enough to defend in this league. I don’t think his defense is a tremendous strength for you, but it’s certainly not a weakness.

I still think Russell should be considered as an all-time great defensive center, even if he did have the body of a current 3/4. There is another smallish center who was also right up there on that list too.

Shaq was a great defensive center. He would defensively and physically dominate 95% of centers to ever play. But he is just a rung below some guys on that all time ladder when it comes defense.

But as the best ever two way center, Shaq is right there right after Hakeem as I consider Kareem and Wilt much too offensive minded and Russell too defensive minded.

[Roy H.]

But as the best ever two way center, Shaq is right there right after Hakeem as I consider Kareem and Wilt much too offensive minded and Russell too defensive minded

I think Kareem and Wilt have some excellent defensive seasons, too.  Kareem’s defense declined with age, but while with Milwaukee he was a defensive beast.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

After 6 rounds, here's the 2019 Celticsstrong Historical Draft Detroit Pistons.

                     

                                       

It doesn't have the flashiest of superstars, but I'm happy I was able to build a starting five to my liking, and the identity that I want. A tenacious defensive group, and a well balanced team on offense. An unselfish team that fits well together and does not take away the strengths from the other.

Now it's time to shore up the bench.

I'm quite satisfied as to where I'm at. Although it's quite slim pickings for me as far as who I want as a bench unit. Here's hoping I land the guys I have on my board. But for now, I think that's a legitimate starting 5.

Hope you guys don't mind, but I would like to bump this and see what you guys think. I'm trying to gauge where we stand as a team, what we might need as far as depth, and where we are in the race. I have a few ideas in mind, of course barring the guys I like getting picked before I do, but I could use some feedback from other minds as well.

Thanks.

[nickagneta]

But as the best ever two way center, Shaq is right there right after Hakeem as I consider Kareem and Wilt much too offensive minded and Russell too defensive minded

I think Kareem and Wilt have some excellent defensive seasons, too.  Kareem’s defense declined with age, but while with Milwaukee he was a defensive beast.

Oh it's very close. And others could see, depending on the year, Kareem and Wilt and maybe Robinson as being better two way centers but I think at his best Shaq was probably a better two way player. If Shaq could make FTs, and got more fouls called for him(Shaq was treated criminally by refs as opponents repeated beat on him physically but Shaq never showed that it affected him, so there was no call), I don't think there would be any question at all.

You think of some of these centers who weren't great FT shooters and the what ifs. What if Shaq could hit FTs at a 75% rate? He would raise his career PPG average by 2 points per game. That's a lot of PPG when he was already averaging 23.5 PPG for his entire career.

[action781]

I'm interested in knowing your Center defensive ranking scale.

Many on here - including myself - would classify Pierce as being a good defender - even Elite at times as he got older - but he never got any Defensive Team votes.

If I'm not mistaken - every C you mentioned up there is AT LEAST 2nd team defensive.

As for my Center defensive ranking scale, that would require me giving you my password to my top secret EXCEL spreadsheet with all my intricate formulas in it... You can't possibly think I'm that crazy! 

I just think those guys in my Tier 1 all quite clearly had more dominant effects at times in their career than Ewing did.

Hakeem - shut down Ewing and D-Rob in playoff series
Walton - incredible help defense swatting many of Dr J's layups in nba finals (was also first-team all-def)
Russell - no comment needed
- 4x DPOY
Robinson - DPOY, 4x first-team all-defense (and some more second-teams too)
Kareem - 5x first-team all-defense, 4x block champion

Ewing comes nowhere near those accolades or accomplishments, ever.  Even Willis Reed who I later pulled off was 70 and 73 Finals MVPs matched up against Wilt.  I don't know of a single postseason series when Ewing "shut a guy down" that was, say, a player already drafted in this game or played amazing help defense that influenced the outcome of a series.  I don't know of any players that speak of Ewing as a defender they hated to go up against.  (I even googled it and couldn't find one)

Nobody has even posted one accomplishment yet for Ewing except for "all-league" (second team).  I just hear "he was very good".  But he got obliterated by Hakeem in the finals and by MJ whenever they met.  Sure, those are two all-time greats... but they are also on 2 of the 11 teams in this league of all-time greats.  I get the feeling that all the guys in this game who Ewing didn't get to go up against would also have absolutely zero fear of Ewing's defense and handled it similarly.

I'm still open to being convinced that he belongs at the top of the bottom 6 defensive centers in this game... but it has to be with more than just "he was a great defender".

[action781]

When you google image search "Player X defense" all the players in my tier 1, you get pictures of them in a defensive stance, blocking a shot, or something relatively nonchalant.

Google image search "Patrick Ewing defense" and see the very first image that shows up.      

OK, happy to listen to the arguments for him as I requested, but I'll try not to completely hijack this thread and move on to talking about other teams like Yoki.

[nickagneta]

Regarding Ewing's lack of defense accolades, Roy brought up a tremendous point, that during Ewing's time in the league he played against some of the all-time great defensive centers ever. So his not being on loads of All-Defensive teams makes sense.

But that doesn't diminish the fact that Ewing really was a tremendous defensive talent. In other eras, Ewing would have scooped up loads of All-Defense honors. He would have been the best defensive center in the league over the last ten years if he was playing now. He would have been the best defensive center of the 70's as well. 2nd best of the 60's. He just played in a golden era of tremendous big man talent.

[gouki88]

When you google image search "Player X defense" all the players in my tier 1, you get pictures of them in a defensive stance, blocking a shot, or something relatively nonchalant.

Google image search "Patrick Ewing defense" and see the very first image that shows up.      

OK, happy to listen to the arguments for him as I requested, but I'll try not to completely hijack this thread and move on to talking about other teams like Yoki.

Darn you MJ!

I don't think I myself ever described Ewing as being on the level of Russel/KAJ/Hakeem/Wilt on defence. Or Dikembe, come to think of it.

I think Ewing is similar to Shaq on defence. Good defensive peak (4BPG for Ewing), but never the impact of some of his contemporaries. However, I think alongside numerous other guys who made All-Defence teams in Bird, Malone and Kidd, and a solid defender in PP, I think that Ewing would be solid. In my opinion it is the overall defensive unit that's more important in a game like this, especially in the modern game where there is so much PnR / switching.

Never thought Ewing would stir up so much debate!

[action781]

After 6 rounds, here's the 2019 Celticsstrong Historical Draft Detroit Pistons.

                     

                                       

It doesn't have the flashiest of superstars, but I'm happy I was able to build a starting five to my liking, and the identity that I want. A tenacious defensive group, and a well balanced team on offense. An unselfish team that fits well together and does not take away the strengths from the other.

Now it's time to shore up the bench.

I'm quite satisfied as to where I'm at. Although it's quite slim pickings for me as far as who I want as a bench unit. Here's hoping I land the guys I have on my board. But for now, I think that's a legitimate starting 5.

Hope you guys don't mind, but I would like to bump this and see what you guys think. I'm trying to gauge where we stand as a team, what we might need as far as depth, and where we are in the race. I have a few ideas in mind, of course barring the guys I like getting picked before I do, but I could use some feedback from other minds as well.

Thanks.

Hey Yoki, I like the team overall, I do.  You're probably a below average offensive team, but above average defensive team.  Some things to consider:

You'll need a backup ball-handler when Stockton sits.  Hondo and Kawhi could in their days, but I don't think they're ideal for being primary ballhandlers for chunks of time in in a league of all-timers.  It could be a combo-guard type player that can come in for Stockton or play with Stockton sliding Hondo to SF.  I'd recommend sticking with your perimeter defense mentality, of which there is a pretty clear contender available to draft.

It seems to me that Stockton is really the engine that makes this team go.  Again, I don't think Kawhi is going to be a creator with such ease as he does today when he's up against great defense each night.  So when Stockton sits, who is the offensive engine?  Is it that defensive backup point guard?  Or it could be drafting another bench player at a different position who is a great creator.  Is it maybe a great offensive center who can give you some yin to Mutombo's defensive yang?  Or you could get another similar defensive center to Mutombo as his backup and then you run the same offense all game.

I could see a huge boost to your team if you were to acquire a PnR partner for Stockton either via draft or trade.  Maybe Elvin Hayes is that guy, but it's just not as obvious to me as other guys would be.  I don't know Hayes game that well tbh though.

[GreenFaith1819]

Good points, all - considering Centers.

Wished that PP34 would've gotten some defensive team recognition....dude even got recognition from LeBron James himself as being a great defender.

Who got picked before PP34 - especially in his latter years?

Shame that PP toiled on some losing teams...The Captain was so good in his prime that Shaq gave him his nickname.