Best Starting 5 vs Best Rotation?

[Boris Badenov]

 Nope. Those two are capable of getting 20 points 20 rebounds 5 blocks every night.

Assuming equal performance that’s 10/10/2.5 each.

Here is a list of players who averaged better than 10pts, 10reb and 2.5blk last year:

[Moranis]

 Tacko Fall
 Timelord
 Tatum
 Brown
 Kemba

I am sorry, I love Tacko, but the guy will struggle to make our 15 man roster let alone start on a contending team. He has so much to improve that I wouldn't be surprised if he went to Europe to play for a few years before coming back to the NBA.

People compare him to Boban, but Boban can shoot and hit free throws...and even he played in Europe for almost 10 years before getting a spot from the Spurs.

well since Boston isn't a contending team I'm not sure it matters. 

I do agree with your larger point though and Tacko belongs no where near Boston.  Maine is just fine for him.

[Birdman]

Rotation...got to have a good bench

[Vermont Green]

It is an interesting debate as to whether or not the best 5 start.  I think if you have a well balance roster, your best 5 players would fall into place so that you could start those 5, play those 5 the most minutes, and that those 5 would represent a balanced unit.

In the case of the 2019-20 Celtics, the roster is not balanced.  Our best big is probably our 6th best player (Walker, Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, KANTER).  We are not going to be able to play our top 5 as a unit very often if at all.  Further, just to have some bigs on the floor, players 8-10 or so are going to see way more minutes than you would like.

In terms of prior responses here, I am surprised to see how many people have Kanter as a bench player, even with two other bigs starting.  I would love it if Fall or RWill improve enough to earn a starting role but I think this would be a big surprise.  I expect Kanter to start and play the most overall minutes of the bigs rotation (Ojeleye, Theis, RWill, Poirier, Fall, GWill,).  The question in my mind is who will emerge as the second/third primary big and can someone step up and play at a starter level of talent/production.

[Th3M2n]

There is literately no possible way Gordon does not start other than being injured again.  To think otherwise is an exercise in delusion

[Vermont Green]

There is literately no possible way Gordon does not start other than being injured again.  To think otherwise is an exercise in delusion

Yeah, this kind of statement was thrown around a lot before last season too.  Hayward ended up playing in 72 games, starting 18 games.  The delusion became the reality.  Hayward may well start but I don't see it as a foregone conclusion.  My preference would be Hayward staring as the SG with Walker, Tatum, and two bigs (Kanter + Theis/Ojeleye/RWill?) or coming off the bench.  Either is fine really, he will end up playing the same minutes, but I think he would have better production and a bigger contribution coming off the bench.  I feel sixth man would be a great role for him.

[nickagneta]

There is literately no possible way Gordon does not start other than being injured again.  To think otherwise is an exercise in delusion

Yeah, this kind of statement was thrown around a lot before last season too.  Hayward ended up playing in 72 games, starting 18 games.  The delusion became the reality.  Hayward may well start but I don't see it as a foregone conclusion.  My preference would be Hayward staring as the SG with Walker, Tatum, and two bigs (Kanter + Theis/Ojeleye/RWill?) or coming off the bench.  Either is fine really, he will end up playing the same minutes, but I think he would have better production and a bigger contribution coming off the bench.  I feel sixth man would be a great role for him.

Hayward hasn't played SG for years. As he aged his body was growing out of the ability to play that position, even before the injury. Hayward is very much a 3-4 nowadays and not a 2-3.

[Vermont Green]

There is literately no possible way Gordon does not start other than being injured again.  To think otherwise is an exercise in delusion

Yeah, this kind of statement was thrown around a lot before last season too.  Hayward ended up playing in 72 games, starting 18 games.  The delusion became the reality.  Hayward may well start but I don't see it as a foregone conclusion.  My preference would be Hayward staring as the SG with Walker, Tatum, and two bigs (Kanter + Theis/Ojeleye/RWill?) or coming off the bench.  Either is fine really, he will end up playing the same minutes, but I think he would have better production and a bigger contribution coming off the bench.  I feel sixth man would be a great role for him.

Hayward hasn't played SG for years. As he aged his body was growing out of the ability to play that position, even before the injury. Hayward is very much a 3-4 nowadays and not a 2-3.

Boy, I see this totally differently.  I think we agree that Hayward's natural position is SF, but what I saw on the court last year was much better as SG than a PF.  He has the quickness and ball-handling to handle SG but not even close to the strength to play PF.  I can't imagine he would line up defensively against any PFs, unless we played zone or something like that.  He would have trouble defending some quicker guards but he would have trouble with every PF.

[nickagneta]

There is literately no possible way Gordon does not start other than being injured again.  To think otherwise is an exercise in delusion

Yeah, this kind of statement was thrown around a lot before last season too.  Hayward ended up playing in 72 games, starting 18 games.  The delusion became the reality.  Hayward may well start but I don't see it as a foregone conclusion.  My preference would be Hayward staring as the SG with Walker, Tatum, and two bigs (Kanter + Theis/Ojeleye/RWill?) or coming off the bench.  Either is fine really, he will end up playing the same minutes, but I think he would have better production and a bigger contribution coming off the bench.  I feel sixth man would be a great role for him.

Hayward hasn't played SG for years. As he aged his body was growing out of the ability to play that position, even before the injury. Hayward is very much a 3-4 nowadays and not a 2-3.

Boy, I see this totally differently.  I think we agree that Hayward's natural position is SF, but what I saw on the court last year was much better as SG than a PF.  He has the quickness and ball-handling to handle SG but not even close to the strength to play PF.  I can't imagine he would line up defensively against any PFs, unless we played zone or something like that.  He would have trouble defending some quicker guards but he would have trouble with every PF.

Yeah, I completely disagree with this assessment, so I will just agree to disagree.

[Hoopvortex]

Starting Lineup going into Post All star break for the championship run.

 Tacko Fall
 Timelord
 Tatum
 Brown
 Kemba

Tacko going to play 24 minutes a game.

Once again I'll say that I love your provocations - one of the things that makes it worth coming to this site. And while I don't believe you're serious about 8th-man minutes for Tacko, it's worth a look to see what that would mean.

No, Tacko is not getting rotation minutes this season. He doesn't have the speed, and he doesn't have the strength. Both of those can be addressed over time, to some extent, and it sounds like he's got dedication.

 If Brad can stomach two bigs that can't shoot.

That is a lot to ask - and I don't mean of Brad's stomach, but of Boston's offense. Because facing a clogged lane and challenged 3-pters every possession would mean that scoring points would be agonizing and inefficient. Constant double-teams for Celtics scorers would mean lots of turnovers and inefficient jump shots off the dribble; and though we thought that they didn't get to the line enough this past season, it really could get worse...

Now I've focused on Tacko here, but Timelord is a very different prospect going into this upcoming season. I don't subscribe to the provocative scenario that you outline here, with him as a starter - but I think it's a real possibility that he becomes a rotation player this season.

RW3 is superbly equipped for today's game. That was evident before he was drafted, but his medical issue turned a lot of teams away on draft night.

Now PAIS isn't very well understood, but I'm not too far out in claiming that it's a mechanical issue and can be minimized with stretching and the other comprehensive joint-development work that is available to professional athletes in our era (it's got a big male/young adult/athletic set of risk factors, suggesting that how the knee is being used is a factor - and that can be altered with training).

It wasn't surprising to see both of his knees thoroughly wrapped in Summer League; but his movement looked great; he has not been idle in the past year, and we may hope that the work he's done might perhaps minimize the condition.

As for his game, he was whipping some pretty slick on-target passes in SL; if he's got a spot as a roll-man to step into in February, being able to get the ball to spot-ups and cutters as he rolls in the lane would help him to make his case.

He's got the young shot-blocker's habit of going after every shot, leaving him out of position for rebounds on occasion.  I've gotten a definite impression that he's coachable, though, and the progress he's made with his body is a heartening sign.

The coaching staff and management are cautiously optimistic:

· Celtics coach on Williams’ play in Vegas: “He was good. Not dominant, but good. He was under control as a defender. His rebounding was better than ever. Offense is coming. Work in progress.”

· Team executive on Williams’ development: “We knew he was a project when we drafted him, but a worthy one. Sometimes a project gets tossed early, but Robert is a guy we’ll go the distance with. Word of warning: Don’t put too much on this kid too early. We signed a lot of bigs for a reason.”

High hopes, in other words - but don't expect a starting role for him this year. Having said that, there is a spot waiting for him if he can get it all together, and I'm very confident that he'll have a big role to play in his year 3 - always provided good health.

Bench mob

Kanter
Theis
Hayward
Romeo Langford
Smart

I expect Kanter to start; and Theis is surely the first big off the bench, unless and until Timelord steps forward; Theis appears to be underappreciated among posters on this site, and also misunderstood, since people keep proposing him as a "power forward" - he's a center. 

Romeo Langford has a lot working against his getting court time this season, even apart from having so many wings in front of him. But one of the things that Brad Stevens has proven adept at is getting developmental minutes for young players.

My prediction is that only one of Brown, Smart, and Hayward will come off the bench. Mostly last season it was both Brown and Hayward, with identical per-game minutes; they were in a sense co-sixth men (and, by the way, I thought they developed some really good chemistry on offense), but either of them could start. Brown is more switchable...

Of course, you could imagine a kind of drastic scenario where Ojeleye starts in order to match up with a swing or 4, with both Smart and Hayward coming off the bench, or something. Morris is gone, so if they start a swing as they did last year, it would have to be Ojeleye; Grant Williams is a rookie who will certainly get developmental minutes.

A two-big starting five was the norm in 2017-18 for Boston, bucking the league-wide trend; so perhaps the coaching staff would consider Kanter/Theis as starters; but the Celtics have made guarding the 3-pt line a priority, so maybe we won't see that. Kanter/Timelord, though...

Kemba Carsen cold be a microwave scoring duo.

You could think of Carsen taking over the Terry Rozier role - and like the way that they used Terry, I'd bet that you wouldn't see a lot of Edwards/Walker pairings. Edwards is going to get a good dose of minutes, I predict; his combination of being able to shoot off the dribble, advance the ball with pace, and play pro defense, plus the lack of guys in front of him - are going to get him out there early and often.

[RockinRyA]

There is literately no possible way Gordon does not start other than being injured again.  To think otherwise is an exercise in delusion

Yeah, this kind of statement was thrown around a lot before last season too.  Hayward ended up playing in 72 games, starting 18 games.  The delusion became the reality.  Hayward may well start but I don't see it as a foregone conclusion.  My preference would be Hayward staring as the SG with Walker, Tatum, and two bigs (Kanter + Theis/Ojeleye/RWill?) or coming off the bench.  Either is fine really, he will end up playing the same minutes, but I think he would have better production and a bigger contribution coming off the bench.  I feel sixth man would be a great role for him.

Hayward hasn't played SG for years. As he aged his body was growing out of the ability to play that position, even before the injury. Hayward is very much a 3-4 nowadays and not a 2-3.

Boy, I see this totally differently.  I think we agree that Hayward's natural position is SF, but what I saw on the court last year was much better as SG than a PF.  He has the quickness and ball-handling to handle SG but not even close to the strength to play PF.  I can't imagine he would line up defensively against any PFs, unless we played zone or something like that.  He would have trouble defending some quicker guards but he would have trouble with every PF.

Yeah, I completely disagree with this assessment, so I will just agree to disagree.

The Celtics were something like, better on D with him as PF and crap on D with him as SG. On offense it was the reverse.

[Hoopvortex]

The idea that you have to have either the best players starting or the best rotation is flawed thinking. It's possible to have both.

Hard to argue against that - I'd agree, at any rate.

Having said that, the Celtics are a team whose best five players - arguably - do not include a big. So, would you field a starting five who were your best players regardless of size? I doubt it.

I'm remembering with some amusement Don Nelson, coaching the Mavericks, putting Antoine Walker on Shaq. You had to feel sorry for poor Toine, but it sure was funny watching him trying to front the post.

[Hoopvortex]

There is literately no possible way Gordon does not start other than being injured again.  To think otherwise is an exercise in delusion

Yeah, this kind of statement was thrown around a lot before last season too.  Hayward ended up playing in 72 games, starting 18 games.  The delusion became the reality.  Hayward may well start but I don't see it as a foregone conclusion.  My preference would be Hayward staring as the SG with Walker, Tatum, and two bigs (Kanter + Theis/Ojeleye/RWill?) or coming off the bench.  Either is fine really, he will end up playing the same minutes, but I think he would have better production and a bigger contribution coming off the bench.  I feel sixth man would be a great role for him.

Hayward hasn't played SG for years. As he aged his body was growing out of the ability to play that position, even before the injury. Hayward is very much a 3-4 nowadays and not a 2-3.

Boy, I see this totally differently.  I think we agree that Hayward's natural position is SF, but what I saw on the court last year was much better as SG than a PF.  He has the quickness and ball-handling to handle SG but not even close to the strength to play PF.  I can't imagine he would line up defensively against any PFs, unless we played zone or something like that.  He would have trouble defending some quicker guards but he would have trouble with every PF.

Yeah, I completely disagree with this assessment, so I will just agree to disagree.

The Celtics were something like, better on D with him as PF and crap on D with him as SG. On offense it was the reverse.

http://www.82games.com/1819/18BOS10.HTM

How you measure these things is not at all settled.  According to this link he was indeed crap on D against SG's, and good against PF's, but he was also pretty good on O as a PF.

But let's keep it in perspective; by this method, he played almost no minutes at SG, while playing about the same at SF as at PF.

[KG Living Legend]

Starting Lineup going into Post All star break for the championship run.

 Tacko Fall
 Timelord
 Tatum
 Brown
 Kemba

Tacko going to play 24 minutes a game.

Once again I'll say that I love your provocations - one of the things that makes it worth coming to this site. And while I don't believe you're serious about 8th-man minutes for Tacko, it's worth a look to see what that would mean.

No, Tacko is not getting rotation minutes this season. He doesn't have the speed, and he doesn't have the strength. Both of those can be addressed over time, to some extent, and it sounds like he's got dedication.

 If Brad can stomach two bigs that can't shoot.

That is a lot to ask - and I don't mean of Brad's stomach, but of Boston's offense. Because facing a clogged lane and challenged 3-pters every possession would mean that scoring points would be agonizing and inefficient. Constant double-teams for Celtics scorers would mean lots of turnovers and inefficient jump shots off the dribble; and though we thought that they didn't get to the line enough this past season, it really could get worse...

Now I've focused on Tacko here, but Timelord is a very different prospect going into this upcoming season. I don't subscribe to the provocative scenario that you outline here, with him as a starter - but I think it's a real possibility that he becomes a rotation player this season.

RW3 is superbly equipped for today's game. That was evident before he was drafted, but his medical issue turned a lot of teams away on draft night.

Now PAIS isn't very well understood, but I'm not too far out in claiming that it's a mechanical issue and can be minimized with stretching and the other comprehensive joint-development work that is available to professional athletes in our era (it's got a big male/young adult/athletic set of risk factors, suggesting that how the knee is being used is a factor - and that can be altered with training).

It wasn't surprising to see both of his knees thoroughly wrapped in Summer League; but his movement looked great; he has not been idle in the past year, and we may hope that the work he's done might perhaps minimize the condition.

As for his game, he was whipping some pretty slick on-target passes in SL; if he's got a spot as a roll-man to step into in February, being able to get the ball to spot-ups and cutters as he rolls in the lane would help him to make his case.

He's got the young shot-blocker's habit of going after every shot, leaving him out of position for rebounds on occasion.  I've gotten a definite impression that he's coachable, though, and the progress he's made with his body is a heartening sign.

The coaching staff and management are cautiously optimistic:

· Celtics coach on Williams’ play in Vegas: “He was good. Not dominant, but good. He was under control as a defender. His rebounding was better than ever. Offense is coming. Work in progress.”

· Team executive on Williams’ development: “We knew he was a project when we drafted him, but a worthy one. Sometimes a project gets tossed early, but Robert is a guy we’ll go the distance with. Word of warning: Don’t put too much on this kid too early. We signed a lot of bigs for a reason.”

High hopes, in other words - but don't expect a starting role for him this year. Having said that, there is a spot waiting for him if he can get it all together, and I'm very confident that he'll have a big role to play in his year 3 - always provided good health.

Bench mob

Kanter
Theis
Hayward
Romeo Langford
Smart

I expect Kanter to start; and Theis is surely the first big off the bench, unless and until Timelord steps forward; Theis appears to be underappreciated among posters on this site, and also misunderstood, since people keep proposing him as a "power forward" - he's a center. 

Romeo Langford has a lot working against his getting court time this season, even apart from having so many wings in front of him. But one of the things that Brad Stevens has proven adept at is getting developmental minutes for young players.

My prediction is that only one of Brown, Smart, and Hayward will come off the bench. Mostly last season it was both Brown and Hayward, with identical per-game minutes; they were in a sense co-sixth men (and, by the way, I thought they developed some really good chemistry on offense), but either of them could start. Brown is more switchable...

Of course, you could imagine a kind of drastic scenario where Ojeleye starts in order to match up with a swing or 4, with both Smart and Hayward coming off the bench, or something. Morris is gone, so if they start a swing as they did last year, it would have to be Ojeleye; Grant Williams is a rookie who will certainly get developmental minutes.

A two-big starting five was the norm in 2017-18 for Boston, bucking the league-wide trend; so perhaps the coaching staff would consider Kanter/Theis as starters; but the Celtics have made guarding the 3-pt line a priority, so maybe we won't see that. Kanter/Timelord, though...

Kemba Carsen cold be a microwave scoring duo.

You could think of Carsen taking over the Terry Rozier role - and like the way that they used Terry, I'd bet that you wouldn't see a lot of Edwards/Walker pairings. Edwards is going to get a good dose of minutes, I predict; his combination of being able to shoot off the dribble, advance the ball with pace, and play pro defense, plus the lack of guys in front of him - are going to get him out there early and often.

 Rock solid post Vortex. TP.

 I'm the biggest Tacko fan ever. He is Fast enough and strong enough. For me endurance is a big questiion mark.

 Yeah realistically I love the Kanter Bob Williams frontcourt.

 Timelord simply has a skill-set nobody else has.  The Ridiculous passing skills he's shown makes him a keeper.

 Defensively he makes bad mistakes, but gone him time he also erases mistakes.

 Kanter Brad will force to shoot threes sometimes and he's great inside.

 Timelord will have room in the high post to Pass and take his man off the dribble, and a constant Lob threat. Top 5 lob catcher in the league already.

Kanter
Timelord
Tatum
Brown
Kemba

Hayward, Smart, Carsen Edwards, Romeo, Grant Williams, Theis, Semi, Tacko!

[Hoopvortex]

 Defensively he makes bad mistakes, but gone him time he also erases mistakes.

I think he’s coming along nicely. It sounds like he’s taking coaching and putting in the work.

He didn’t make a good first impression in Summer 2018 on fans - a lot of people concluded he was some kind of idiot slacker, and his shyness and small-town culture are easily misinterpreted.

The loss of Al Horford is a dark cloud over the Auerbach Center, no way around it. But a sliver of a silver lining of that loss is that Robert Williams’ opportunity just got bigger.

I’m a fan of Enes, despite the gaping holes in his game; in a world where Timelord (what an awesome nickname, btw) is a fully developed NBA starting big, I see Kanter as a terrific sixth man/first big off the bench.

2020-21?