Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.

[Hoopvortex]

At this point just from the thread title you know it comes from these same people. If you can't adapt, the times will surely leave you behind. And boy, you are clearly so left behind.

Where were you when the Warriors won 3 of 4 with their Death Lineup? Oh that's right, stuck in the past.

 You realize that's probably the worst comment in the history of the internet.

 Bob Myers gets all the credit there. Rightfully so. Perfect 10 GM Job.
 

 They had Four of the best players in the NBA.

 Green is the best small ball forward In the league he also has a 7'2" wingspan

 Grant Williams is 6'9.5" for comparison.

 Durant is almost 7' with an insanely long 7'5" wingspan.

 Klay Thompson is 6'7" long great defender.

 It's the players not the system Einstein.

I think you’re saying that length is an advantage in today’s game. If so, I agree wholeheartedly.

The game has opened up in the past few years, so guys who can cover a lot of ground are needed if you’re going to guard a lot of space; alternatively, guys with a lot of reach can get deflections, discourage passes to cutters, close out to challenge shots, reach around for steals, block shots... and if you’ve got both, so much the better.

Hey, you don’t need to insult people. Have confidence in yourself and your arguments!

[ozgod]

 With such conviction he wanted to eliminate the power forward position ball handlers wings swings and Biggs everybody was talking about that all the time around here like it was some sort of basketball gospel.

 In the end I think the guy was 100% wrong with that weird concept he's also seems to be at odds with Danny Ainge in the style of play we're going to continue to play small ball even though we have five legitimate big man on the roster now.

 This will be a telling season for Brad Stevens if he continues to not adapt and play the hand he was dealt instead of trying to fit everybody into his small-ball system and make can't I shoot threes never play Bob Williams, Rarely play Poirier.

 Brad Stevens is officially on the hot seat IMO.

Pretty sure small ball was invented long before Brad came on the scene. Spoelstra ran a pace and space small ball offense back in 2012 with LeBum at the 4 if I recall correctly. And obviously Golden State took full advantage of it. And long before that we had Nellie Ball from Don Nelson.

Doesn't mean that size is dead. These days I think it's skilled size that people want, not just size...players like Horford, AD, KAT, Embiid, etc. That's your ideal player. But there's not that many of them around.

[fairweatherfan]

At this point just from the thread title you know it comes from these same people. If you can't adapt, the times will surely leave you behind. And boy, you are clearly so left behind.

Where were you when the Warriors won 3 of 4 with their Death Lineup? Oh that's right, stuck in the past.

 You realize that's probably the worst comment in the history of the internet.

 Bob Myers gets all the credit there. Rightfully so. Perfect 10 GM Job.
 

 They had Four of the best players in the NBA.

 Green is the best small ball forward In the league he also has a 7'2" wingspan

 Grant Williams is 6'9.5" for comparison.

 Durant is almost 7' with an insanely long 7'5" wingspan.

 Klay Thompson is 6'7" long great defender.

 It's the players not the system Einstein.

Grant Williams is nowhere near 6-9.

Without shoes Grant Williams is only 6-5 3/4

With shoes Grant Williams is 6-7.

Read the sentence before, he's talking about Grant Williams' wingspan. Though I just looked that up and some places say 6-11.

NBA combine results were under 6'10

Ya 6'11 ones seem older, 6'9 3/4 is what I see for combine.

[action781]

 With such conviction he wanted to eliminate the power forward position ball handlers wings swings and Biggs everybody was talking about that all the time around here like it was some sort of basketball gospel.

 In the end I think the guy was 100% wrong with that weird concept he's also seems to be at odds with Danny Ainge in the style of play we're going to continue to play small ball even though we have five legitimate big man on the roster now.

 This will be a telling season for Brad Stevens if he continues to not adapt and play the hand he was dealt instead of trying to fit everybody into his small-ball system and make can't I shoot threes never play Bob Williams, Rarely play Poirier.

 Brad Stevens is officially on the hot seat IMO.

As someone mentioned, Brad has been to 2 conference finals in the last 3 seasons.  22+ other coaches in the NBA must all be on hot seats if Brad is.

[blink]

lol, when does training camp start?  we are really grasping at straws with some of these threads.
Brad is a good coach, he wasn't trying to reinvent anything.  We were playing small ball when Doc was still here.

[RockinRyA]

At this point just from the thread title you know it comes from these same people. If you can't adapt, the times will surely leave you behind. And boy, you are clearly so left behind.

Where were you when the Warriors won 3 of 4 with their Death Lineup? Oh that's right, stuck in the past.

 You realize that's probably the worst comment in the history of the internet.

 Bob Myers gets all the credit there. Rightfully so. Perfect 10 GM Job.
 

 They had Four of the best players in the NBA.

 Green is the best small ball forward In the league he also has a 7'2" wingspan

 Grant Williams is 6'9.5" for comparison.

 Durant is almost 7' with an insanely long 7'5" wingspan.

 Klay Thompson is 6'7" long great defender.

 It's the players not the system Einstein.

Wow, you had the audacity to post such a thing  AFTER your opening post?!


**** at green is a small forward. Duse has soent all of his time alternating between 4 and 5.

Small Ball isnt what you think it is. Its not merely size and length, its mostly playstyle. Length is important but size not so much anymore.

[Somebody]

Brad Stevens didn't even introduce small ball to the Celtics. People were screaming about Doc using small ball way, way, way too much going as far back as 2008 when he would often go with a Garnett/Posey/Pierce/Allen/Rondo lineup. Drove people here nuts.

I'd love for us to have a 6'8/6'9 3 and D forward who's long and tough like Posey to play PF nowadays LOL

[Fierce1]

At this point just from the thread title you know it comes from these same people. If you can't adapt, the times will surely leave you behind. And boy, you are clearly so left behind.

Where were you when the Warriors won 3 of 4 with their Death Lineup? Oh that's right, stuck in the past.

 You realize that's probably the worst comment in the history of the internet.

 Bob Myers gets all the credit there. Rightfully so. Perfect 10 GM Job.
 

 They had Four of the best players in the NBA.

 Green is the best small ball forward In the league he also has a 7'2" wingspan

 Grant Williams is 6'9.5" for comparison.

 Durant is almost 7' with an insanely long 7'5" wingspan.

 Klay Thompson is 6'7" long great defender.

 It's the players not the system Einstein.

Grant Williams is nowhere near 6-9.

Without shoes Grant Williams is only 6-5 3/4

With shoes Grant Williams is 6-7.

Read the sentence before, he's talking about Grant Williams' wingspan. Though I just looked that up and some places say 6-11.

That's why I got confused.

I checked it out from the combine measurements.

Here:
https://www.nbadraft.net/2019-nba-draft-combine-measurements

Grant Williams' wingspan is 6-9 3/4.

[Somebody]

I've talked about this many times, but what KGLL is going on about isn't pure size/length, it's about acquiring skilled and mobile size, or players who have qualities to overcome their lack of size/length. People like to use the Warriors as an example to pimp up small ball, but the Warriors are hardly "small": they have a 6'3 Curry who's taller than the average PG (around 6'2), a 6'7 Klay who's the perfect 3 and D SG, a 7 foot KD with a 7'5 wingspan to cover all three frontcourt positions, a 6'8/6'9 Iguodala who has a combination of size, length, strength and speed to cover the toughest wing/swing assignments in the league, and a 6'6/6'7 Draymond Green who is one of the rare exceptions in the league: a player who's absurdly long for his height with a 7'2 wingspan, strong enough to hold his ground against bruising seven footers inside, quick enough to switch outside seamlessly and embarrass plodding big men and skilled enough to be a passing hub anywhere on the court. What the Celtics have is nothing that the Warriors have in the frontcourt: we have a 6'7 Jaylen Brown who's best at playing as an oversized SG ala Klay, a 6'8 Hayward who has T-Rex arms to render him less effective than an Iggy at defending up a position or two, and a 6'9 Tatum who's long and big enough to guard bigger players, but unfortunately doesn't have the strength or nose inside to check them well. What we could do is to play with a slightly more traditional lineup at times when we need some beef in the frontcourt, but Brad Stevens is pretty averse to such lineups, and that's pretty much what we're not liking about his coaching. We'd be incredibly happy with him if we had GSW's personnel/if he plays with a bigger lineup at times when we need it against teams like Milwaukee. The small ball preaching needs to stop about pure skill overcoming multiple inches of size and length plus the nose to play inside lol, all the best "small ball" teams are nothing like this, they have skilled and mobile size who all have the mentality to play rough when matched up against more traditional lineups.

[Fafnir]

Nellie, Westphal, D'Antoni, Spolestra, and Kerr are all very confused by this thread's premise.

And those are just the pro coaches I can think of off the top of my head.

Anyways if anything its the old heads screaming about size and rebounds who are wrong. The guys who are paid to do this and have their careers/money staked on it all are going with shooting and versatile players at the 4/5 instead of size.

The math problem is very real, 3 > 2. I understand not liking it, but its not going away without rule changes.

[Sophomore]

I've talked about this many times, but what KGLL is going on about isn't pure size/length, it's about acquiring skilled and mobile size, or players who have qualities to overcome their lack of size/length. People like to use the Warriors as an example to pimp up small ball, but the Warriors are hardly "small": they have a 6'3 Curry who's taller than the average PG (around 6'2), a 6'7 Klay who's the perfect 3 and D SG, a 7 foot KD with a 7'5 wingspan to cover all three frontcourt positions, a 6'8/6'9 Iguodala who has a combination of size, length, strength and speed to cover the toughest wing/swing assignments in the league, and a 6'6/6'7 Draymond Green who is one of the rare exceptions in the league: a player who's absurdly long for his height with a 7'2 wingspan, strong enough to hold his ground against bruising seven footers inside, quick enough to switch outside seamlessly and embarrass plodding big men and skilled enough to be a passing hub anywhere on the court. What the Celtics have is nothing that the Warriors have in the frontcourt: we have a 6'7 Jaylen Brown who's best at playing as an oversized SG ala Klay, a 6'8 Hayward who has T-Rex arms to render him less effective than an Iggy at defending up a position or two, and a 6'9 Tatum who's long and big enough to guard bigger players, but unfortunately doesn't have the strength or nose inside to check them well. What we could do is to play with a slightly more traditional lineup at times when we need some beef in the frontcourt, but Brad Stevens is pretty averse to such lineups, and that's pretty much what we're not liking about his coaching. We'd be incredibly happy with him if we had GSW's personnel/if he plays with a bigger lineup at times when we need it against teams like Milwaukee. The small ball preaching needs to stop about pure skill overcoming multiple inches of size and length plus the nose to play inside lol, all the best "small ball" teams are nothing like this, they have skilled and mobile size who all have the mentality to play rough when matched up against more traditional lineups.

Agree the Warriors had great personnel to execute their scheme, but let's not exaggerate. Iggy is listed at 6'6". And while they did add KD, their championship run started when they had Harrison Barnes at the power forward position, no giant. In total:

Curry 6'3" (with a relatively short wingspan, at 6'4")
Klay 6'7" (the only player on their roster who was long for his position, but still not crazy long - wingspan of 6'9")
Iguodala 6'6"
Barnes 6'8"
Green 6'7"

It worked because they were great basketball players who knew how to get the most out of their scheme, not because they were long.

For kicks, here's last year's Celtics, who were as long or longer at every position:

Kyrie 6'4"
Jaylen 6'7" (longer wingspan than Klay by 3 inches)
Tatum 6'8"
Morris 6'9"
Horford 6'10"

[Roy H.]

For kicks, here's last year's Celtics, who were as long or longer at every position:

Kyrie 6'4"
Jaylen 6'7" (longer wingspan than Klay by 3 inches)
Tatum 6'8"
Morris 6'9"
Horford 6'10"

That team had almost ideal size, particularly with Baynes, Hayward and Smart available as well.  Lack of traditional positions / length weren't our issues.

I still shake my head thinking about what could have been.  On paper, that's a championship-contending roster.

[Androslav]

For kicks, here's last year's Celtics, who were as long or longer at every position:

Kyrie 6'4"
Jaylen 6'7" (longer wingspan than Klay by 3 inches)
Tatum 6'8"
Morris 6'9"
Horford 6'10"

That team had almost ideal size, particularly with Baynes, Hayward and Smart available as well.  Lack of traditional positions / length weren't our issues.

I still shake my head thinking about what could have been.  On paper, that's a championship-contending roster.

It sure was talent wise.
But we were lacking the necessary leadership.

[Fafnir]

It was roster that has some flaws in how efficient its offense is due to lack of FT and rim attempts, but those aren't fatal.

What was fatal is that their best player was a headcase and everyone took that as permission to fly their inner malcontent flag fly. Size was not the problem.

[Somebody]

I've talked about this many times, but what KGLL is going on about isn't pure size/length, it's about acquiring skilled and mobile size, or players who have qualities to overcome their lack of size/length. People like to use the Warriors as an example to pimp up small ball, but the Warriors are hardly "small": they have a 6'3 Curry who's taller than the average PG (around 6'2), a 6'7 Klay who's the perfect 3 and D SG, a 7 foot KD with a 7'5 wingspan to cover all three frontcourt positions, a 6'8/6'9 Iguodala who has a combination of size, length, strength and speed to cover the toughest wing/swing assignments in the league, and a 6'6/6'7 Draymond Green who is one of the rare exceptions in the league: a player who's absurdly long for his height with a 7'2 wingspan, strong enough to hold his ground against bruising seven footers inside, quick enough to switch outside seamlessly and embarrass plodding big men and skilled enough to be a passing hub anywhere on the court. What the Celtics have is nothing that the Warriors have in the frontcourt: we have a 6'7 Jaylen Brown who's best at playing as an oversized SG ala Klay, a 6'8 Hayward who has T-Rex arms to render him less effective than an Iggy at defending up a position or two, and a 6'9 Tatum who's long and big enough to guard bigger players, but unfortunately doesn't have the strength or nose inside to check them well. What we could do is to play with a slightly more traditional lineup at times when we need some beef in the frontcourt, but Brad Stevens is pretty averse to such lineups, and that's pretty much what we're not liking about his coaching. We'd be incredibly happy with him if we had GSW's personnel/if he plays with a bigger lineup at times when we need it against teams like Milwaukee. The small ball preaching needs to stop about pure skill overcoming multiple inches of size and length plus the nose to play inside lol, all the best "small ball" teams are nothing like this, they have skilled and mobile size who all have the mentality to play rough when matched up against more traditional lineups.

Agree the Warriors had great personnel to execute their scheme, but let's not exaggerate. Iggy is listed at 6'6". And while they did add KD, their championship run started when they had Harrison Barnes at the power forward position, no giant. In total:

Curry 6'3" (with a relatively short wingspan, at 6'4")
Klay 6'7" (the only player on their roster who was long for his position, but still not crazy long - wingspan of 6'9")
Iguodala 6'6"
Barnes 6'8"
Green 6'7"

It worked because they were great basketball players who knew how to get the most out of their scheme, not because they were long.

For kicks, here's last year's Celtics, who were as long or longer at every position:

Kyrie 6'4"
Jaylen 6'7" (longer wingspan than Klay by 3 inches)
Tatum 6'8"
Morris 6'9"
Horford 6'10"

Apologies for messing up Iguodala's height, I assumed he was around 6'8 from watching him guard elite wings in Warrior games, he looked every bit as tall as a LeBron or Kawhi. Btw Kyrie is 6'2 or 6'3, he's not 6'4. And to be fair to that iteration of the Warriors, they had the option of playing a 6'11/7'0 Bogut at C to start games (he was also elite defensively aside from being the perfect low usage big man to set crushing screens for Steph and Klay), and they did that quite a lot. In fact one of the reasons why they lost the 2016 finals was because they lost Bogut to injury in the middle of the series, so they were undermanned in the frontcourt. We really didn't have the option of sticking that type of guy into games last season, and our closest approximation of that in Baynes wasn't really played a lot by Brad, even against bigger teams like the Bucks. But yeah my point was that the Warriors had great personnel to execute their schemes throughout their run, and they never really downsized to our level for long stretches during a season, as they always had (and used) their option of going big to combat bigger teams, ntm that their small lineups weren't really all that small in the KD era when they went small more often due to a lack of quality big men and depth.