Author Topic: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?  (Read 2249 times)

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Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2019, 01:16:24 PM »

Online Fierce1

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Why are we thinking about trading Jaylen when he projects to be just as good as Gordon if not better?

The 2019-20 season will determine if Brown is going to be a future all-star or not.

Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2019, 03:58:36 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Jaylen Brown is the guy I most want to keep because out of our scorers (Tatum, Hayward, Kemba) Jaylen is the one who needs the ball the least on offense & because he is a terrific defensive talent.

Out of our top players, I believe Jaylen is the one who best fits next to other star players because he can impact the game well off the ball. To me he is the biggest keeper on the team.

I don't think Tatum and Hayward are legit scorers at this point in time.

Hayward was a scorer in Utah.
But until he regains his all-star form, he can't be considered a scorer just yet.

Tatum has yet to average 20 points per game.
Until that happens, Tatum can't be considered a scorer.

Right now only Kemba is a legit scorer on the Celts.

Unless something drastic happens this summer, Jaylen will have a chance to prove he's worth keeping.

Remember, Jamal Murray and Ben Simmons got 34m per year.

How much is Jaylen worth?

That's one of the questions about Jaylen that will be answered in the 2019-20 season.



 Don't agree with this logic at all. Especially with Tatum.

 Kyrie is gone. Tatum is the Real #1 pick of his class. He's 21 years old.

 His shot attempts are going from 13 per game to 18 per game. Maybe more.

 He will avg 20ppg this year or next. Book it.

I'm a big Jayson Tatum fan.

All I'm saying is until it happens, it's still premature to say that he's already a scorer at this point in time.

Last season the Celts were supposed to be in the 2019 NBA Finals because they had so much talent.

That was the logic for such high expectations for last season's Celtics team.

We all know what happened in the end.
.   

 Please don't bring up last season again the experts were wrong Kyrie is the worst leader I've ever seen and Hayward was coming over a massive injury and we never had a power forward anyway last year's team was always overrated this year's teams already being underrated which is good let's see how the season plays out but Jayson Tatum is a dominant scorer in the making Kemba is a dominance score we have a lot of candidates to look for that third spot.

Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2019, 11:06:14 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Trying to figure out some other potential trades to move Brown while still adding a lot of value for the next 2-3 years (2 of the 4 would be much cheaper in 2020-2022 than Brown). And one ultimate fantasy proposal at the end that has a probability of greater than zero, but not by much haha just want your take on that, too.

What do you guys think of these potential trades:

Jaren Jackson, Jr.:

http://tradenba.com/trades/ByTJKEtzB

Perhaps Morant does not like playing with Jackson, so a straight-up trade. We’ve possibly got our PF of the future who’s got 3 years on his rookie contract, is only 20 in September, and has a ton of potential. In fact, I suspect we might need to throw in the Milwaukee and/or Boston pick to get it done.

Nurkic:

http://tradenba.com/trades/rJdNZ4YGS

Solidifies our center position with a guy who’s 24 and averaged a double-double on a great team. That said, he had a tough injury. He would be slow making it back to 100%, but he has prior experience working with Kanter so they can split time this year while Nurkic gets better.

Siakam:

http://tradenba.com/trades/BJxum4Fzr

Hot commodity right now, so he would cost us a lot of picks on top of Brown. If he demanded a trade, this could possibly happen. That said, we would be set at PF for years to come considering he’s only 25, and he’s proven he can be the number two guy on a championship squad. Kemba and Pascal would be a deadly pick-and-roll, particularly if Tatum develops into a Durant-esque caliber player like we hope.

Extremely unlikely but seemed to be the case with Kyrie in 2017: Superstar demands out at the deadline...

http://tradenba.com/trades/BJaLD4tGB

You never know what is happening behind the scenes. If the Bucks faltered (like we did in 2018-2019 after being favorites) with Bogdon gone and Giannis demanded a trade (like Kyrie wanted a change), would you execute this trade if Giannis agreed to a max extension on top of his contract set to expire in 2021? Reasoning: He wants to be the chief rival of the LA monsters that are Kawhi and LeBron, so where do you go to beat LA? Boston. It’s great for the NBA. Yes, it’s a monster-haul but this would be incredibly unique to land a top 5 talent who, combined with Kemba, Smart, and Hayward, would probably make us instant favorites to face the Clippers/Lakers each of the next four years. Oh, and he’s only 25 in December.

those are unlikely and i wouldn't want to trade for Nurkic

a better chance if Brown (or Hayward) is dangled is probably to the Magic for a package involving Aaron Gordon and Bamba

or Cavs for Tristant Thompson and Larry Nance Jr. 


Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2019, 07:59:48 AM »

Online Vermont Green

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I understand the point; trade some of our wing depth to fortify our bigs rotation.  This make perfect sense to me but I have come to the conclusion that a trade like this is not in the cards.   Any of Smart, Brown, Tatum, or Hayward would have solid trade value and could get back a quality big but I just don't see it happening.

The examples in the OP are the types of players/trades that come to mind when you think of this but also as you think through them, you see how unlikely (and risky) they are.  I think if anything, a more modest trade at the deadline for a vet rental big is more likely but even that only is the team is in reasonable contention.

All teams, like the Celtics, are kind of seeing what they have right now.  It is hard to see anyone trading one of their core bigs to change direction and building around one of the Celtics young bigs.

Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2019, 08:17:15 AM »

Offline Birdman

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Celtics are done trading..they not trading Tatum, Brown or Hayward
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2019, 08:39:33 AM »

Offline Silky

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Celtics are done trading..they not trading Tatum, Brown or Hayward

I wouldnt be so sure about Hayward.

I firmly believe that he would be the first to go, if the offer was right, out of Kemba, Brown, Tatum. No way Danny has 4 untouchable players on his roster.

I dont believe that anyone is being shopped right now, but calls would definitely be answered, and offers for Hayward will be considered.

Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2019, 08:47:38 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Celtics are done trading..they not trading Tatum, Brown or Hayward

I wouldnt be so sure about Hayward.

I firmly believe that he would be the first to go, if the offer was right, out of Kemba, Brown, Tatum. No way Danny has 4 untouchable players on his roster.

I dont believe that anyone is being shopped right now, but calls would definitely be answered, and offers for Hayward will be considered.
The key word in that sentence is "I".  you have a real mad-on for getting rid of Hayward.

barring a complete collapse this season which would include no improvement from Hayward, he's here for the duration of his deal.  even if the team has a meltdown this season and/or Hayward is still the same as last season, he's likely here for the full season since either (A) he's back to Utah Hayward or close and he's our best player for (B) he's not any better and it's very unlikely another team would see him as a valuable player/asset in a trade where they'll be paying him for another season and a half.

Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2019, 09:17:36 AM »

Offline Silky

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Hayward, RWilliams, Romeo Langford to Orlando

DJ Augustine to Charlotte

Aaron Gordon, Mo Bamba, MKG to Boston.

Kemba/Wannamaker/Waters
Brown/Smart/Edwards
Tatum/MKG/Semi
Gordon/GWilliams/Theis
Bamba/Kanter/Poirier

Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2019, 09:34:22 AM »

Offline Silky

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Celtics are done trading..they not trading Tatum, Brown or Hayward

I wouldnt be so sure about Hayward.

I firmly believe that he would be the first to go, if the offer was right, out of Kemba, Brown, Tatum. No way Danny has 4 untouchable players on his roster.

I dont believe that anyone is being shopped right now, but calls would definitely be answered, and offers for Hayward will be considered.
The key word in that sentence is "I".  you have a real mad-on for getting rid of Hayward.

barring a complete collapse this season which would include no improvement from Hayward, he's here for the duration of his deal.  even if the team has a meltdown this season and/or Hayward is still the same as last season, he's likely here for the full season since either (A) he's back to Utah Hayward or close and he's our best player for (B) he's not any better and it's very unlikely another team would see him as a valuable player/asset in a trade where they'll be paying him for another season and a half.

He will carry value at end of season as an expiring deal.
Good chance he will not put up Utah numbers, because team will be playing Kemba, Brown and Tatum all more minutes. He and Smart will be 4th/5th wings with minutes. We already know that Tatum nor Hayward works at PF, didnt work with a great defender like Al at center, wont work with centers like Poirer and Kanter.

So that means we have Smart/Brown/Tatum/Hayward all competing for 96 minutes per game at the sg/sf spot, with 20 minutes at the PF spot out of neccessity, and probably 10 minutes at the PG spot (Kemba 34 minutes, Edwards 5 minutes) That is 126 minutes.

Brown and tatum is a must at 34 minutes per game, they are the future of the celtics organization and have already been labelled that by coaching, management and ownership.

That leaves 58 minutes.

Langford Will get 10 minutes per game, he is a lotto pick, if they really like him more than most of the talent taken after him then he will get that.

So now down to 48 minutes between Smart and Hayward.

Smart has a career average of 27/game, so lets assume that it is at least 24 minutes a game. As the teams overall, by far, best game changging defender  24 minutes is almost to few and he should be at least 28, but lets say 24.

So that leaves around 24 minutes per game for gordon.

Again, lets assume he regains UTAH form (even though that is a long shot, and also lets assume that his Utah numbers translate over to differing positions of sg-sf-pf when in Utah he only played sf-sg) then he would be averaging 15.2, 2apg, 3.8rpg and getting paid 33 million per season.

There would be alot of value there in a trade as teams would see that not only is he an expiring, but he would be putting up the same per minute numbers as that 1 allstar season from Utah 3 years ago. That would have good trade value. More than Brown, who would be on a small, hard to match salary and due for an extension, or tatum who is untouchable like brown and is also a hard contract to match value wise due to the $

Hayward remains the most logical trade option,


and again, not saying team is shopping him, but they will listen to offers,.

Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2019, 09:34:48 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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If you get upset people view you as overly focused on trading Hayward, maybe do not propose Hayward trades in a a thread that is specifically prefaced on moving Brown as part of 4 proposed trades.  ;)

Edit: Or write 405 words defending moving Hayward in a Brown trade idea thread.

Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2019, 10:08:37 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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I think the answer to the OP's question in the title is: why would we need to move Brown?  I don't get this obsession with trading him.

Because there are serious questions about whether Tatum, Brown and Hayward can co-exist on the court together - and if one of those three had to be moved Brown would make the most sense because:

1. Tatum's upside is just too high
2. Hayward's value is at an all time low, and selling low on him now could prove a terrible move if he comes back to form (highly possible)

Brown has potential to be a good player, but I don't think he'll be an All Star.  Teams are high on him now, so his value would be relatively high - high enoguh to get a worthwhile return.  And his 1 season away from a contract year, so the question must be asked how much teams would offer for him, and is it worth matching.

Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2019, 10:11:47 AM »

Offline Walker Wiggle

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The OP deserves some credit because plenty of people have speculated about the team possibly trading away Brown, but little attention has been spent on exactly what to trade him for.

The decision to trade him will be contingent on many factors, and for that reason it's hard to imagine the team pulling the trigger prior to the trade deadline. Most importantly, you'd need to assess 1) how Jaylen looks and whether or not he's improved his game; 2) whether or not Hayward is "back", or close to back, to his former (Utah) self; whether or not Langford looks like a long-term option as a potential Jaylen replacement.

You'd also be curious to know how Smart meshes with Walker (are they a "fit" as a starting backcourt the way Smart and Irving were?), and whether or not there's a major trade that vaults the Celtics into title contention (in which case you might need to part with Langford but keep Jaylen, for instance).

In all probability, if the team does trade him away I think it's either going to be in a blockbuster to try and compete this season, or for a player at an even earlier stage of his rookie deal (that is, even further away from restricted free agency). I also wouldn't be surprised to see the team trade him for picks, especially if they're high on Langford.

Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2019, 10:13:35 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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Trying to figure out some other potential trades to move Brown while still adding a lot of value for the next 2-3 years (2 of the 4 would be much cheaper in 2020-2022 than Brown). And one ultimate fantasy proposal at the end that has a probability of greater than zero, but not by much haha just want your take on that, too.

What do you guys think of these potential trades:

Jaren Jackson, Jr.:

http://tradenba.com/trades/ByTJKEtzB

Perhaps Morant does not like playing with Jackson, so a straight-up trade. We’ve possibly got our PF of the future who’s got 3 years on his rookie contract, is only 20 in September, and has a ton of potential. In fact, I suspect we might need to throw in the Milwaukee and/or Boston pick to get it done.

Nurkic:

http://tradenba.com/trades/rJdNZ4YGS

Solidifies our center position with a guy who’s 24 and averaged a double-double on a great team. That said, he had a tough injury. He would be slow making it back to 100%, but he has prior experience working with Kanter so they can split time this year while Nurkic gets better.

Siakam:

http://tradenba.com/trades/BJxum4Fzr

Hot commodity right now, so he would cost us a lot of picks on top of Brown. If he demanded a trade, this could possibly happen. That said, we would be set at PF for years to come considering he’s only 25, and he’s proven he can be the number two guy on a championship squad. Kemba and Pascal would be a deadly pick-and-roll, particularly if Tatum develops into a Durant-esque caliber player like we hope.

Extremely unlikely but seemed to be the case with Kyrie in 2017: Superstar demands out at the deadline...

http://tradenba.com/trades/BJaLD4tGB

You never know what is happening behind the scenes. If the Bucks faltered (like we did in 2018-2019 after being favorites) with Bogdon gone and Giannis demanded a trade (like Kyrie wanted a change), would you execute this trade if Giannis agreed to a max extension on top of his contract set to expire in 2021? Reasoning: He wants to be the chief rival of the LA monsters that are Kawhi and LeBron, so where do you go to beat LA? Boston. It’s great for the NBA. Yes, it’s a monster-haul but this would be incredibly unique to land a top 5 talent who, combined with Kemba, Smart, and Hayward, would probably make us instant favorites to face the Clippers/Lakers each of the next four years. Oh, and he’s only 25 in December.

those are unlikely and i wouldn't want to trade for Nurkic

a better chance if Brown (or Hayward) is dangled is probably to the Magic for a package involving Aaron Gordon and Bamba

or Cavs for Tristant Thompson and Larry Nance Jr.

Tristan Thompson? Eek.  If we are trading Brown for him and Larry Nance Jr then we must have REALLY given up on Brown in a huge way. 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 10:28:00 AM by Muzzy66 »

Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2019, 10:17:25 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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Celtics are done trading..they not trading Tatum, Brown or Hayward

I wouldnt be so sure about Hayward.

I firmly believe that he would be the first to go, if the offer was right, out of Kemba, Brown, Tatum. No way Danny has 4 untouchable players on his roster.

I dont believe that anyone is being shopped right now, but calls would definitely be answered, and offers for Hayward will be considered.

The entire fiasco with the forced playing time last year kinda proved to me that Steven's allowed his personal relationship with Hayward to impact business / coaching decisions.  If that's the case then the chance of him getting traded is probably very slim unless somebody throws Ainge the type of offer you cannot say not to.  I just think Hayward and Brad Stevens are too close, and truth be told that worries me a bit. 

Re: Some Potential Talent to Obtain If We Need to Move Brown?
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2019, 10:18:55 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Celtics are done trading..they not trading Tatum, Brown or Hayward

I wouldnt be so sure about Hayward.

I firmly believe that he would be the first to go, if the offer was right, out of Kemba, Brown, Tatum. No way Danny has 4 untouchable players on his roster.

I dont believe that anyone is being shopped right now, but calls would definitely be answered, and offers for Hayward will be considered.
The key word in that sentence is "I".  you have a real mad-on for getting rid of Hayward.

barring a complete collapse this season which would include no improvement from Hayward, he's here for the duration of his deal.  even if the team has a meltdown this season and/or Hayward is still the same as last season, he's likely here for the full season since either (A) he's back to Utah Hayward or close and he's our best player for (B) he's not any better and it's very unlikely another team would see him as a valuable player/asset in a trade where they'll be paying him for another season and a half.
He will carry value at end of season as an expiring deal.
Good chance he will not put up Utah numbers, because team will be playing Kemba, Brown and Tatum all more minutes. He and Smart will be 4th/5th wings with minutes. We already know that Tatum nor Hayward works at PF, didnt work with a great defender like Al at center, wont work with centers like Poirer and Kanter.
bad assumptions. 
1. if he has value as an expiring deal, it's because the other team is looking to move a lot of salary on a longer deal.  if that happens to be a highly-talented and highly-paid player that offers a talent upgrade for the C's, great.  but that also likely means the C's are giving up more assets than Hayward and not players that are salary filler.
2. He doesn't need to put up Utah numbers.  it's not about the number whether it be stats or minutes.  never is.  it's about how he plays when he's on the court and whether it contributes to winning.  I don't care if he puts up 10/4/4 if it leads to winning basketball due to him making the other players on the court produce better and he's playing quality defense.

So that means we have Smart/Brown/Tatum/Hayward all competing for 96 minutes per game at the sg/sf spot, with 20 minutes at the PF spot out of neccessity, and probably 10 minutes at the PG spot (Kemba 34 minutes, Edwards 5 minutes) That is 126 minutes.
again, it's not about the minutes but winning basketball.  also, I think it's presumptious to think any of the rookies get rotational playing time.  they'll see the court at some point but I don't think any of them are ready to be inserted into the primary rotation.  if they earn time as the season progresses, that's either really good for us that they've stepped up or really bad that players in the rotation we were counting on to be better have actually not been better.

Brown and tatum is a must at 34 minutes per game, they are the future of the celtics organization and have already been labelled that by coaching, management and ownership.

That leaves 58 minutes.
again, that's your presumption that they must get a certain volume of minutes.   They'll get the minutes they earn and/or are needed to play to win a game.  Playing them for the sake of playing them a specific volume of minutes is pointless.

Langford Will get 10 minutes per game, he is a lotto pick, if they really like him more than most of the talent taken after him then he will get that.
See the comments about Edwards.  there's no guarantee any of the rookies see rotational playing time.  if they do, it'll either be for a really good reason or a really bad reason

So now down to 48 minutes between Smart and Hayward.

Smart has a career average of 27/game, so lets assume that it is at least 24 minutes a game. As the teams overall, by far, best game changging defender  24 minutes is almost to few and he should be at least 28, but lets say 24.

So that leaves around 24 minutes per game for gordon.
again, trying to predict minutes is pointless.  they'll play the number of minutes they need to play to get a win.  you can add in the 15 minutes you presumed the rookies would be getting.  they're not beating out Smart and Hayward for minutes unless they're studs or Smart/Hayward are having horrible years.

Again, lets assume he regains UTAH form (even though that is a long shot, and also lets assume that his Utah numbers translate over to differing positions of sg-sf-pf when in Utah he only played sf-sg) then he would be averaging 15.2, 2apg, 3.8rpg and getting paid 33 million per season.

There would be alot of value there in a trade as teams would see that not only is he an expiring, but he would be putting up the same per minute numbers as that 1 allstar season from Utah 3 years ago. That would have good trade value. More than Brown, who would be on a small, hard to match salary and due for an extension, or tatum who is untouchable like brown and is also a hard contract to match value wise due to the $

Hayward remains the most logical trade option,

and again, not saying team is shopping him, but they will listen to offers,.
I think his level of play is likely to be closer to his Utah level than the level he played at to start the season last year.   Numbers don't matter.  what matters is the team playing winning basketball.   if he does get to Utah form, that means he's the type of player we want on the team since that would make him our best player and would make a really good 1-2 punch with Kemba.  as for a trade candidate, he only becomes one if Brown and Tatum both realize their potential and Langford develops into a really good player by next year's trading deadline.  I don't see that occuring if for no other reason than Hayward is our second best playmaker right now and Brown/Tatum have shown very little ability to set up their teammates on offense.  that's not a skill to be tossed away lightly.

 

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