Author Topic: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill  (Read 11333 times)

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Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2019, 04:28:01 PM »

Offline jambr380

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The LA and NY teams have a big advantage in that stars frequently fall in their laps because of their location.

That is what happened this year. Leonard wanted to play in LA. George also wanted to play in LA. Neither apparently wanted to play with James. So they picked the Clippers, told them, and the Clippers traded for George in a lopsided deal, giving up a ton of draft picks. Kind of like what the Lakers did trading for Davis. It didn't have a lot to do with anything else. Just like James and Davis going to the Lakers. A mirror image of that situation. And then Durant-Irving to the NY, er., Brooklyn  Nets. Same deal. Fell into their laps because of location.

It wasn't the management that engineered those deals. It was the stars dictating where they wanted to go, and the management of those teams  just following their wishes.

That is not 100% accurate. Both FOs had a lot to do with the final outcome.

They managed to create intriguing rosters appealing to top stars. And in the clippers case the FO managed to collect enough assets to make the trade

Appealing rosters? Lebron went in and cleared literally everybody off of the Lakers except Kuzma; and Kawhi required that the Clippers trade everything they have to get George. What is remaining is alright, but both teams are fully invested in what they have now with no way to get any better besides vet min signings...totally worth it btw.

It had EVERYTHING to do with it being LA for both franchises. Danny could only be so lucky - he is MUCH better at team building than anything going on out there.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 04:48:07 PM by jambr380 »

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2019, 04:29:29 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
The Knicks never land anyone,

Agree, both LA and NYC have tons of media fanboys that make them sound like the center of the basketball universe.   LA itself only has like 12 titles and NYC has what two?  I think some of the fan boys got a big time wake up call this year.

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2019, 05:10:40 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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The LA and NY teams have a big advantage in that stars frequently fall in their laps because of their location.

That is what happened this year. Leonard wanted to play in LA. George also wanted to play in LA. Neither apparently wanted to play with James. So they picked the Clippers, told them, and the Clippers traded for George in a lopsided deal, giving up a ton of draft picks. Kind of like what the Lakers did trading for Davis. It didn't have a lot to do with anything else. Just like James and Davis going to the Lakers. A mirror image of that situation. And then Durant-Irving to the NY, er., Brooklyn  Nets. Same deal. Fell into their laps because of location.

It wasn't the management that engineered those deals. It was the stars dictating where they wanted to go, and the management of those teams  just following their wishes.

That is not 100% accurate. Both FOs had a lot to do with the final outcome.

They managed to create intriguing rosters appealing to top stars. And in the clippers case the FO managed to collect enough assets to make the trade

Appealing rosters? Lebron went in and cleared literally everybody off of the Lakers except Kuzma; and Kawhi required that the Clippers trade everything they have to get George. What is remaining is alright, but both teams are fully invested in what they have now with no way to get any better besides vet min signings...totally worth it btw.

It had EVERYTHING to do with it being LA for both franchises. Danny could only be so lucky - he is MUCH better at team building than anything going on out there.

LA now has AD, Rondo, and Cousins... It makes you wonder... Why didn't the King just join the Pelicans?

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2019, 05:12:16 PM »

Offline CelticsElite

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The LA and NY teams have a big advantage in that stars frequently fall in their laps because of their location.

That is what happened this year. Leonard wanted to play in LA. George also wanted to play in LA. Neither apparently wanted to play with James. So they picked the Clippers, told them, and the Clippers traded for George in a lopsided deal, giving up a ton of draft picks. Kind of like what the Lakers did trading for Davis. It didn't have a lot to do with anything else. Just like James and Davis going to the Lakers. A mirror image of that situation. And then Durant-Irving to the NY, er., Brooklyn  Nets. Same deal. Fell into their laps because of location.

It wasn't the management that engineered those deals. It was the stars dictating where they wanted to go, and the management of those teams  just following their wishes.

That is not 100% accurate. Both FOs had a lot to do with the final outcome.

They managed to create intriguing rosters appealing to top stars. And in the clippers case the FO managed to collect enough assets to make the trade

Appealing rosters? Lebron went in and cleared literally everybody off of the Lakers except Kuzma; and Kawhi required that the Clippers trade everything they have to get George. What is remaining is alright, but both teams are fully invested in what they have now with no way to get any better besides vet min signings...totally worth it btw.

It had EVERYTHING to do with it being LA for both franchises. Danny could only be so lucky - he is MUCH better at team building than anything going on out there.

LA now has AD, Rondo, and Cousins... It makes you wonder... Why didn't the King just join the Pelicans?
because new Orleans is a joke city

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2019, 05:13:04 PM »

Offline #1P4P

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Around the league this offseason it's clear that there are buyers and sellers, contending teams and rebuilding teams. The contending teams are offloading massive assets to compete in what looks to be the most open field in years. The rebuilding teams are selling, collecting assets and taking advantage of the most desperate buyers with trades that make the Nets deal look like a box of flaming garbage.

I am extremely concerned that the Celtics are determined to be among the "buyers" with no clear path forward. They still have assets but are no longer leading the pack in that department. At this point, they could easily be outbid for the next star to get on the market. Actually, it may not even be in Ainge's nature to ever make a clearance-house type deal that LAC and LAL have made recently. Even in the Garnett deal the only really consequential piece they lost was Jefferson.

I know that the Celtics' policy is to consistently be competitive and I don't disagree with signing Kemba as an asset, but they need to be wary of the position they are currently in. The future of the franchise is heavily dependent on the development of Tatum and Brown right now, and they are 7-8 years younger than Kemba and Hayward. More and more teams are being run competently these days and are setting themselves up with strong young nuclei that may outclass our present duo. Teams like Memphis, Atlanta, Dallas, New Orleans, even Sacramento.

If we can't claim to have one of the best young cores while also having one of the weaker max combos of Hayward and Kemba, that is not an enviable position. If it becomes clear there are no moves to make in the near future, they will seriously need to consider moving assets and taking a step back as opposed to futile steps forward.

I expect most fans will disagree with this post, but I'm just saying the Celtics brass needs to be extremely careful with how they proceed. The league has recalibrated itself this offseason for at least the next two years. They need to take a hard look at exactly where they stand in this new landscape.

You answered your own concerns with the post. The "treadmill" is an investment into the continuing development of Jaylen, Jayson, Romeo, Grant, and all of the other young players and future players.

The clear path forward is to be in a KD OKC position while simultaneously being competitive. It hinges on the young players reaching and/or exceeding their potential and time, not making decisions exchanging short term gain for long term goals, will tell if it is worth it in the end.

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2019, 05:24:13 PM »

Offline footey

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The LA and NY teams have a big advantage in that stars frequently fall in their laps because of their location.

That is what happened this year. Leonard wanted to play in LA. George also wanted to play in LA. Neither apparently wanted to play with James. So they picked the Clippers, told them, and the Clippers traded for George in a lopsided deal, giving up a ton of draft picks. Kind of like what the Lakers did trading for Davis. It didn't have a lot to do with anything else. Just like James and Davis going to the Lakers. A mirror image of that situation. And then Durant-Irving to the NY, er., Brooklyn  Nets. Same deal. Fell into their laps because of location.

It wasn't the management that engineered those deals. It was the stars dictating where they wanted to go, and the management of those teams  just following their wishes.

That is not 100% accurate. Both FOs had a lot to do with the final outcome.

They managed to create intriguing rosters appealing to top stars. And in the clippers case the FO managed to collect enough assets to make the trade

Appealing rosters? Lebron went in and cleared literally everybody off of the Lakers except Kuzma; and Kawhi required that the Clippers trade everything they have to get George. What is remaining is alright, but both teams are fully invested in what they have now with no way to get any better besides vet min signings...totally worth it btw.

It had EVERYTHING to do with it being LA for both franchises. Danny could only be so lucky - he is MUCH better at team building than anything going on out there.

LA now has AD, Rondo, and Cousins... It makes you wonder... Why didn't the King just join the Pelicans?
because new Orleans is a joke city

Harsh.

And untrue.

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2019, 05:30:02 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I'd rather be ON the treadmill for a few years...staying competitive...keeping our options open....than falling completely off of it...

We can easily picture this poor fellow as OKC right now....CHA is falling off the treadmill for a few years....BKN could VERY WELL be OFF of it, too - if Kyrie has the same effect there that he did HERE and Durant doesn't come close to returning to form...

HOU could collapse ANY MINUTE, it seems....will they REALLY stay the course with their roster as it is now?

GSW? They will have a tough time without Klay...

TOR could very well be falling off the treadmill. WASH? A hot mess.....

At least we have our draft picks...a star (a WILLING ONE, at that)...GH should return to form or close to it...the door is WIDE OPEN for Tatum and Brown....Smart will be Smart, thank God...love his competitiveness.

Sometimes you have to stay in a holding pattern...just be a little more patient...but STAY COMPETITIVE.

We are FAR from tumbling OFF the treadmill.

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2019, 10:41:27 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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The LA and NY teams have a big advantage in that stars frequently fall in their laps because of their location.

That is what happened this year. Leonard wanted to play in LA. George also wanted to play in LA. Neither apparently wanted to play with James. So they picked the Clippers, told them, and the Clippers traded for George in a lopsided deal, giving up a ton of draft picks. Kind of like what the Lakers did trading for Davis. It didn't have a lot to do with anything else. Just like James and Davis going to the Lakers. A mirror image of that situation. And then Durant-Irving to the NY, er., Brooklyn  Nets. Same deal. Fell into their laps because of location.

It wasn't the management that engineered those deals. It was the stars dictating where they wanted to go, and the management of those teams  just following their wishes.

That is not 100% accurate. Both FOs had a lot to do with the final outcome.

They managed to create intriguing rosters appealing to top stars. And in the clippers case the FO managed to collect enough assets to make the trade

I heard Woj say on TV Leonard engineered the deal. It was about location. Just like real estate.

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2019, 11:12:27 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Hayward is still only 26/7. Kemba is older but hardly over the hill. Smart is young too. We're building assets that will either compliment the Jays in winning or be used in a trade for a 3rd major piece. It's absolutely the right way to go about this and we're fortunate to have had such a good backup plan

Hayward is 29 and will turn 30 during the course of the season. Not over the hill, but not exactly young in basketball years.
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Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2019, 01:00:23 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Around the league this offseason it's clear that there are buyers and sellers, contending teams and rebuilding teams. The contending teams are offloading massive assets to compete in what looks to be the most open field in years. The rebuilding teams are selling, collecting assets and taking advantage of the most desperate buyers with trades that make the Nets deal look like a box of flaming garbage.

I am extremely concerned that the Celtics are determined to be among the "buyers" with no clear path forward. They still have assets but are no longer leading the pack in that department. At this point, they could easily be outbid for the next star to get on the market. Actually, it may not even be in Ainge's nature to ever make a clearance-house type deal that LAC and LAL have made recently. Even in the Garnett deal the only really consequential piece they lost was Jefferson.

I know that the Celtics' policy is to consistently be competitive and I don't disagree with signing Kemba as an asset, but they need to be wary of the position they are currently in. The future of the franchise is heavily dependent on the development of Tatum and Brown right now, and they are 7-8 years younger than Kemba and Hayward. More and more teams are being run competently these days and are setting themselves up with strong young nuclei that may outclass our present duo. Teams like Memphis, Atlanta, Dallas, New Orleans, even Sacramento.

If we can't claim to have one of the best young cores while also having one of the weaker max combos of Hayward and Kemba, that is not an enviable position. If it becomes clear there are no moves to make in the near future, they will seriously need to consider moving assets and taking a step back as opposed to futile steps forward.

I expect most fans will disagree with this post, but I'm just saying the Celtics brass needs to be extremely careful with how they proceed. The league has recalibrated itself this offseason for at least the next two years. They need to take a hard look at exactly where they stand in this new landscape.

You answered your own concerns with the post. The "treadmill" is an investment into the continuing development of Jaylen, Jayson, Romeo, Grant, and all of the other young players and future players.

The clear path forward is to be in a KD OKC position while simultaneously being competitive. It hinges on the young players reaching and/or exceeding their potential and time, not making decisions exchanging short term gain for long term goals, will tell if it is worth it in the end.

Sure, but as we saw last year it is extremely difficult to mesh young players who were drafted in the high lottery or even outside the lottery (Rozier) with star veterans who require their requisite number of looks. It turns out, Brown and Tatum want to be heavy usage stars! Which isn't surprising considering they were close to top of their respective draft classes.

At some point, too much of the similar type of talent becomes diminishing returns and also creates chemistry issues UNLESS you have really mature or humble stars, or stars who are at a point where they are willing to sacrifice for a title. Durant was able to coexist with GS because Curry and Thompson are superstars who don't really care about "alpha" status and stuff like that. Because Durant had never won a title, he was willing to integrate, up until this season when he decided it was time for a different challenge: his "own" team. Kyrie had his "own" team and was humbled and changed his mind and teamed up with a more talented star.

As much as Kyrie exacerbated last year's "only one ball" situation with his brand of "leadership," he wasn't the cause of the initial problem. Brown and Tatum are young and don't know how bad or good they will be yet. They need touches and are worried about their first post-rookie contract. Recently, Perkins talked frankly about how Rivers made him a role player early in his career on those stacked teams. From the outside, it's easy for us to scoff, "well of course Perk should be a role player with Pierce, Garnett, Allen, and Rondo around him." However, it's not as easy for a young player to be told at ages 18-25 that his destiny in the league is set and his earning potential is going to be capped based on that. Man, I love how honest Perk is.... really missed that guy on our team.

One of the problems as I see it is that the players started to bristle at their roles, which could partially be blamed on Stevens. He had always preached selfless ball and doesn't seem to like defining a hierarchy. Either that or the kids rebelled against it and he could never get everyone to buy in fully.

If you want to make a comparison to Philly vs. Boston's roster, I think that the big difference is Philly is clearly Embiid's team. From an organizational standpoint they are building around him. Butler was supposed to be the 2nd alpha, but he wanted his "own" team and left. If you want to put it this way, the Celtics are "behind" in their championship roster construction because they kept adding talent but was hoping their best player would come last. That was supposed to be Davis. Time will tell if Embiid is the guy who can be the best player on a title team, but at the very least with him in place they have a clear guideline for how to build their team.

What I see on the Celtics is no real guideline besides collect talent and assets while seeing how the kids develop. There is no real defined anchor. Kemba and Hayward are great, but neither are MVP-level players. That being said, Kemba is at an age where personal glory isn't important and by all accounts he is a good guy, so I think he will be fine with sharing the ball. Hayward is playing for a contract, but I think his playmaking will help keep others involved. There's reason to be optimistic this team will mesh better. However, my point is still that at some point they will need to add a top player, after which if Brown, Tatum, Hayward, and Kemba are still here it will require considerable sacrifice on their part.



 



 

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2019, 01:27:25 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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In a lot of ways the Celtics are trying to do the single hardest thing in the NBA, which is build on two separate timelines. Building on an older timeline involves acquiring vets via fre agency or trade, using draft picks to pick up supporting pieces, filling out the roster with the MLE, BAE, and minimums then maximizing your playing time decisions to win. Building for the future usually involves taking toxic assets to get draft picks, being bad to imprve your own draft picks, drafting high upside guys, clearing the roster to give them maximum playing time and supplementing with just a couple vets for culture reasons. The Celtics are, and have been trying to do a blend of both.

The problem with that is you lose a little from both approaches. Brown and Tatum haven't gotten the shots or playmaking responsibilities they might have had they been drafted to a worse team on account of the Celtics having veterans like Hayward and Irving. This may have effected their development, or it may have lowered their perceived value around the league. The Celtics have wasted draft picks on guys like Yabu since they had a full and deep roster including vets like Morris so they reach for draft and stash guys. On the same token after selecting their young guys they have been reluctant to go al in on the present with guys like Kawhi, Paul Geeorge ect.

And now, with Kyrie gone, they've elected to sign a guy who rally doesn't move the needle all that much in terms of a championship in Kemba Walker all so they can be a little better now maybe at the expense of less shots for Brown and or tatum. Does al this mean we are a treadmill team? I dont really know. But I do wonder if they would have just been better off staying on the tanking route a season or longer, letting their young guys developing, and gong form their rather than signing all these 20-30 ranked NBA players like hayward, Horford and Kemba.

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2019, 03:21:53 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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In a lot of ways the Celtics are trying to do the single hardest thing in the NBA, which is build on two separate timelines. Building on an older timeline involves acquiring vets via fre agency or trade, using draft picks to pick up supporting pieces, filling out the roster with the MLE, BAE, and minimums then maximizing your playing time decisions to win. Building for the future usually involves taking toxic assets to get draft picks, being bad to imprve your own draft picks, drafting high upside guys, clearing the roster to give them maximum playing time and supplementing with just a couple vets for culture reasons. The Celtics are, and have been trying to do a blend of both.

The problem with that is you lose a little from both approaches. Brown and Tatum haven't gotten the shots or playmaking responsibilities they might have had they been drafted to a worse team on account of the Celtics having veterans like Hayward and Irving. This may have effected their development, or it may have lowered their perceived value around the league. The Celtics have wasted draft picks on guys like Yabu since they had a full and deep roster including vets like Morris so they reach for draft and stash guys. On the same token after selecting their young guys they have been reluctant to go al in on the present with guys like Kawhi, Paul Geeorge ect.

And now, with Kyrie gone, they've elected to sign a guy who rally doesn't move the needle all that much in terms of a championship in Kemba Walker all so they can be a little better now maybe at the expense of less shots for Brown and or tatum. Does al this mean we are a treadmill team? I dont really know. But I do wonder if they would have just been better off staying on the tanking route a season or longer, letting their young guys developing, and gong form their rather than signing all these 20-30 ranked NBA players like hayward, Horford and Kemba.

You're right, because staying on two paths mean you are at a disadvantage to the teams choosing one path. The teams that are "going for it" are always going to outbid you in trades at the expense of the future. The teams that are rebuilding or going "youth movement" are going to get better draft picks and be able to attain more assets by dumping their stars or using their cap space as a dumping ground.

The Celtics could not dump Kyrie or Horford despite their contract status because they were kind of "going for it." At the same time, they are only willing to deal Brown and Tatum for a top level star who is willing to stay long term. So far, that top level star has eluded them. My previous post covered why, with Davis gone and the league reorienting itself for the next few years, their odds of getting that star have decreased while their window remains the same or is arguably smaller (Hayward, older, Kemba older and physically smaller than Kyrie).

They were attempting to thread a very tight needle with Kyrie's two-year contract status and Horford's age. It didn't work, obviously. Now they are trying to repeat that with Kemba and Hayward. On the plus side, Kemba signed long term. He's not an elite superstar, but he is a star other players may want to play with.

If they get a godfather offer from a desperate team similar to the George situation, the true "youth movement" path may be forced upon them. I don't think they will do it now because they only just signed Kemba and need to honor that, but if the team can't get another star and/or Hayward walks and it becomes clear the future of this team lies in the hands of a 21 and 22 year-old, the decision on how this team needs to move forward could become very obvious, very quickly.


Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2019, 03:25:42 AM »

Offline CelticsElite

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In a lot of ways the Celtics are trying to do the single hardest thing in the NBA, which is build on two separate timelines. Building on an older timeline involves acquiring vets via fre agency or trade, using draft picks to pick up supporting pieces, filling out the roster with the MLE, BAE, and minimums then maximizing your playing time decisions to win. Building for the future usually involves taking toxic assets to get draft picks, being bad to imprve your own draft picks, drafting high upside guys, clearing the roster to give them maximum playing time and supplementing with just a couple vets for culture reasons. The Celtics are, and have been trying to do a blend of both.

The problem with that is you lose a little from both approaches. Brown and Tatum haven't gotten the shots or playmaking responsibilities they might have had they been drafted to a worse team on account of the Celtics having veterans like Hayward and Irving. This may have effected their development, or it may have lowered their perceived value around the league. The Celtics have wasted draft picks on guys like Yabu since they had a full and deep roster including vets like Morris so they reach for draft and stash guys. On the same token after selecting their young guys they have been reluctant to go al in on the present with guys like Kawhi, Paul Geeorge ect.

And now, with Kyrie gone, they've elected to sign a guy who rally doesn't move the needle all that much in terms of a championship in Kemba Walker all so they can be a little better now maybe at the expense of less shots for Brown and or tatum. Does al this mean we are a treadmill team? I dont really know. But I do wonder if they would have just been better off staying on the tanking route a season or longer, letting their young guys developing, and gong form their rather than signing all these 20-30 ranked NBA players like hayward, Horford and Kemba.
you're really discounting the fact that Kemba chose Boston over 29 other teams because he wants to win. If we still tanked 1 or more years, would any free agents want to come in the future who "want to win?" the winning culture got us horford, Hayward, and Kemba to come. Tanking wouldn't have done that

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2019, 05:43:35 AM »

Offline moiso

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The LA and NY teams have a big advantage in that stars frequently fall in their laps because of their location.

That is what happened this year. Leonard wanted to play in LA. George also wanted to play in LA. Neither apparently wanted to play with James. So they picked the Clippers, told them, and the Clippers traded for George in a lopsided deal, giving up a ton of draft picks. Kind of like what the Lakers did trading for Davis. It didn't have a lot to do with anything else. Just like James and Davis going to the Lakers. A mirror image of that situation. And then Durant-Irving to the NY, er., Brooklyn  Nets. Same deal. Fell into their laps because of location.

It wasn't the management that engineered those deals. It was the stars dictating where they wanted to go, and the management of those teams  just following their wishes.

That is not 100% accurate. Both FOs had a lot to do with the final outcome.

They managed to create intriguing rosters appealing to top stars. And in the clippers case the FO managed to collect enough assets to make the trade

I heard Woj say on TV Leonard engineered the deal. It was about location. Just like real estate.
Leonard asked a team in LA and a team in Toronto to trade for Paul George and he would have played at either location.

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2019, 05:57:30 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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In a lot of ways the Celtics are trying to do the single hardest thing in the NBA, which is build on two separate timelines. Building on an older timeline involves acquiring vets via fre agency or trade, using draft picks to pick up supporting pieces, filling out the roster with the MLE, BAE, and minimums then maximizing your playing time decisions to win. Building for the future usually involves taking toxic assets to get draft picks, being bad to imprve your own draft picks, drafting high upside guys, clearing the roster to give them maximum playing time and supplementing with just a couple vets for culture reasons. The Celtics are, and have been trying to do a blend of both.

The problem with that is you lose a little from both approaches. Brown and Tatum haven't gotten the shots or playmaking responsibilities they might have had they been drafted to a worse team on account of the Celtics having veterans like Hayward and Irving. This may have effected their development, or it may have lowered their perceived value around the league. The Celtics have wasted draft picks on guys like Yabu since they had a full and deep roster including vets like Morris so they reach for draft and stash guys. On the same token after selecting their young guys they have been reluctant to go al in on the present with guys like Kawhi, Paul Geeorge ect.

And now, with Kyrie gone, they've elected to sign a guy who rally doesn't move the needle all that much in terms of a championship in Kemba Walker all so they can be a little better now maybe at the expense of less shots for Brown and or tatum. Does al this mean we are a treadmill team? I dont really know. But I do wonder if they would have just been better off staying on the tanking route a season or longer, letting their young guys developing, and gong form their rather than signing all these 20-30 ranked NBA players like hayward, Horford and Kemba.
you're really discounting the fact that Kemba chose Boston over 29 other teams because he wants to win. If we still tanked 1 or more years, would any free agents want to come in the future who "want to win?" the winning culture got us horford, Hayward, and Kemba to come. Tanking wouldn't have done that

You weren't responding to my post directly but I'd like to say I have not advocated "tanking" in this thread. I did use the word "treadmill," which admittedly may have led some to the wrong conclusions.

We can't fully tank anyway because Tatum and Brown are too good and Stevens will find a way to win enough games. My point was more that the Celtics are stubbornly holding onto two cores, an old one and a young one. By holding onto hope the old one can become a contender, there are always sacrifices with the young one, whether it be playing time, young player frustration, or the risk your older players will leave for nothing.

I feel that "if we're a loser nobody will come here" is overstated. BKN only became a playoff team last season. The Lakers were a tanking team until LeBron joined. The Clippers took a step back after the Griffin deal. Sure, Boston isn't a destination city like those places are, but all I was saying is that it is not necessarily a worse strategy - filling your team with promising young players, usually on their rookie deals, and fitting in stars before those rookie deals are up.

Basically, we'd be resetting to when Horford signed with us. Tatum and Brown would be the lures, not Kemba and Hayward. Unfortunately, due to the time wasting with two years of Kyrie, Brown is now already in the last year of his rookie deal, so that timetable is tight too.

One thing I would caution everyone about: We cannot just assume Brown and Tatum are happy forever just because we hold their rights. More than once we've discovered that when a player is not happy, they're going to force their way out one way or the other. We can't just assume they will be happy with their roles with the way the current team is built.

We thought Rozier was happy until all of a sudden, he wasn't. Tatum doesn't talk much, but we already know Brown was unhappy last season. We're looking at a team now where Kemba is the first option with Hayward and Tatum being 2A and 2B. Brown is in a contract year, he's going to want the ball.

Fortunately, we would at least get something for Brown in a deal if it comes to that point. However, I'm just saying that, as we learned last season this is the tricky part of trying to mix young stars and old.