Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill

[kmart12]

It boils down to this: you don’t believe in Jayson Tatum.

If you think he’s the next superstar, then you proceed as Ainge has. Ainge is investing and building around him.

TP.

I was thinking earlier that championship teams are either built through the draft or through the process of constructing a super team. The draft is hit-or-miss, but if you think about the current franchise caliber players in the league right now, they can be found at nearly any pick; it's no longer exclusively lottery guys who are leading teams to championships or contention. We've experienced the super team process before and it did result in a championship (thank you KG, PP, and Ray), but I think that our most recent moves show us that Ainge believes that Tatum may be the next big thing and he's building around that.

This is nothing new, but imagine in Tatum explodes this year? We would then have a franchise caliber forward (i.e., Tatum) surrounded by an All-NBA PG, solid guards/forwards in Smart, Brown, and Hayward, and a decent big man in Kanter. That's a pretty good start. Yes, it's contingent upon a lot of uncertainties, but what part of building a dynasty isn't?

[obnoxiousmime]

The other thing I should mention about Tatum is that he is only 21 years old. Brown is only 22 years old. You simply cannot count on them right now to be the main stars of a contending team. A good team, sure, but not a contending team. They need at least a few more years of seasoning, during which they will inevitably fail and make boneheaded mistakes. It's just part of the developmental process.

So, from the perspective of "can this team become a contender on the Hayward/Kemba timetable," I am not really considering what Brown and Tatum's star potential may be.

Last year was an interesting experiment in combining young top draft picks with veterans in their prime, and the results were not pretty. Perhaps unsurprisingly, Brown and Tatum wanted bigger roles and Kyrie kept lamenting the kids' inexperience as holding the team back. As much as we all hate the way Kyrie handled his business, he wasn't necessarily wrong on that point.

[SHAQATTACK]

Danny just is awful drafting bigs.

He has to trade to get the prize big , and thats impossible to compete with the LA teams for the best centers , they all,head for LA soon as their rookie contracts are up ....so either you have to be a great drafter of bigs or tank for the best center like Philly till you get one.

[RockinRyA]

I think what the premise of the OP is that Danny failed to pick a clear direction and that hurt the Celtics in the end. I also agree with that.
One implication is the future contract that jaylen will or should sign.
Danny has no idea how much jaylen is worth right now because in his mind the young kids have to wait for the chance to take the torch from the older guys and that plan clearly didn’t work out

What the heck is the direction he shouldve picked?! There was none! Its very easy for you guys to say, shouldve done this or that, but 1) you didnt know if that was feasible or 2) if that was actually the better outcome.

None of you know what the actual situation is. Heck the ownership couldve vetoed certain moves and you wouldnt know it! Just because a result isnt your ideal outcome means the alternate options were any better!

[Rondo9]

The other thing I should mention about Tatum is that he is only 21 years old. Brown is only 22 years old. You simply cannot count on them right now to be the main stars of a contending team. A good team, sure, but not a contending team. They need at least a few more years of seasoning, during which they will inevitably fail and make boneheaded mistakes. It's just part of the developmental process.

So, from the perspective of "can this team become a contender on the Hayward/Kemba timetable," I am not really considering what Brown and Tatum's star potential may be.

Last year was an interesting experiment in combining young top draft picks with veterans in their prime, and the results were not pretty. Perhaps unsurprisingly, Brown and Tatum wanted bigger roles and Kyrie kept lamenting the kids' inexperience as holding the team back. As much as we all hate the way Kyrie handled his business, he wasn't necessarily wrong on that point.

Maybe Kyrie should've adjusted instead placing the blame on them.

[RockinRyA]

Danny just is awful drafting bigs.

He has to trade to get the prize big , and thats impossible to compete with the LA teams for the best centers , they all,head for LA soon as their rookie contracts are up ....so either you have to be a great drafter of bigs or tank for the best center like Philly till you get one.

From the position we are picking there are rarely any surefire big man prospects. You always go BPA.

[Chief]

Danny just is awful drafting bigs.

He has to trade to get the prize big , and thats impossible to compete with the LA teams for the best centers , they all,head for LA soon as their rookie contracts are up ....so either you have to be a great drafter of bigs or tank for the best center like Philly till you get one.

From the position we are picking there are rarely any surefire big man prospects. You always go BPA.

He's had 16 years to draft a great big man. I'm still waiting.

I'm not sure Romeo was BPA.

[obnoxiousmime]

Danny just is awful drafting bigs.

He has to trade to get the prize big , and thats impossible to compete with the LA teams for the best centers , they all,head for LA soon as their rookie contracts are up ....so either you have to be a great drafter of bigs or tank for the best center like Philly till you get one.

That's partially why I'm a little pessimistic. I didn't mention it here but I have in other threads, and that is if this team were built with the 4/5 spot figured out first instead of the other way around, I'd feel a lot better about the chances of getting the missing piece(s). It's just not easy to find PFs who can do a little bit of everything. By investing a lot of draft capital and free agency signings on guards and forwards, they created a situation where after Horford left they are almost barren a the position.

Certainly, scoring wings are valuable. Playmaking guards are as well. But we signed Hayward with Tatum and Brown already here. We drafted Rozier and Smart back to back, and signed Kyrie. That's a lot of investment in guards and wings and Horford was the oldest guy on the roster. Also, we now know Horford didn't like playing C and part of the reason he went to the Sixers was he could play PF next to Embiid. Our whole "small" lineup wasn't even something he was happy doing.

I think partially the reasoning was they wanted to go small and match up that way, Warriors' style. However, we don't know how effective that style is if you don't have some of the best shooters in the league at the guard and wing spots. Now that the Warriors will be having a year off recovering and Durant is gone, we don't know what that means for how teams will play in the future. There was a good theringer.com piece on this recently.

For our current team I'm not as concerned whether the next star is a 4 or 5 but it's most likely has to be a 4 who:

1) Can shoot 3s or at least has some range for spacing purposes
2) Can switch and defend 2-5 or 1-5 would be even better
3) Offers some rim protection

This is why I'm more obsessed with getting Myles Turner than I am Sabonis, even if it's unlikely. It's also why I am extremely jealous JJJ is in Memphis. And it's why targeting Davis was important, nevermind his scoring ability. His versatility on defense and ability to shoot from long range while not giving up bulk inside is so rare. It's also why I'm resigned to Giannis being the only realistic target that could push us over the top in the next few years.

Even with somebody like Embiid, you are sacrificing something. If Embiid could shoot long range, it wouldn't matter that Simmons can't shoot. It might not matter anyway now that they've amassed so much talent, but even with the Butler/Horford swap they are a team masking certain limitations in their players.

I think Hayward will bounce back and Brown and Tatum will improve without the Kyrie drama, but we're still a fatally flawed team without that top PF or C.

[Rondo9]

You draft for the BPA not need if there was a big man that was available in the draft I'm sure the Celtics would attain them. All this talk about Anige not drafting bigs even if he did draft one last year without taking in the fact that they weren't BPA doesn't is a little ridiculous.

[Sophomore]

Danny just is awful drafting bigs.

He has to trade to get the prize big , and thats impossible to compete with the LA teams for the best centers , they all,head for LA soon as their rookie contracts are up ....so either you have to be a great drafter of bigs or tank for the best center like Philly till you get one.

From the position we are picking there are rarely any surefire big man prospects. You always go BPA.

He's had 16 years to draft a great big man. I'm still waiting.

I'm not sure Romeo was BPA.

Who are the NBA’s best bigs right now? KAT, Embiid, Davis, Jokic. Maybe Zinger if he’s healthy again?

You could say we missed on Jokic - he was picked in the 2d round,  41st overall. The rest were gone well before we picked. If we had the 1st pick the year KAT or Davis was up instead of 2017, Ainge would have picked them, and people would complain he hadn’t drafted a great wing.

[lbgreen33]

I almost never post, but this topic has me so Frustrated! I am probably considered old, I am in my late 50's. But this is just a ridicules post.
You do realize that running a bball team is just a complete crap shoot right? Hell, the most excited I ever remember being was when we drafted Len Bias, that broke my heart! The Clippers and the Logo look like geniuses now, but what if KL gets hurt?? It is all a Crap shoot man! No one could have predicted what happened to Hayward, that also broke my heart. Just sit back and be a Celtics fan and have fun man. No one can know what will happen in the future, we can't control it. You don't know if Tatum will be a multi year MVP, neither do I. Just sit back and hope for the best.
And, as always Go Celtics!!!!!

[NKY fan]

I think what the premise of the OP is that Danny failed to pick a clear direction and that hurt the Celtics in the end. I also agree with that.
One implication is the future contract that jaylen will or should sign.
Danny has no idea how much jaylen is worth right now because in his mind the young kids have to wait for the chance to take the torch from the older guys and that plan clearly didn’t work out

What the heck is the direction he shouldve picked?! There was none! Its very easy for you guys to say, shouldve done this or that, but 1) you didnt know if that was feasible or 2) if that was actually the better outcome.

None of you know what the actual situation is. Heck the ownership couldve vetoed certain moves and you wouldnt know it! Just because a result isnt your ideal outcome means the alternate options were any better!

It’s easy for us fans to comment on what’s right or wrong after the fact ... we have that luxury as fans .. we are not front office executives...
And a direction is easy to pick and sell to fans... either go young and develop players ....
go big - what we did in summer 2007... it was a clear direction.

The last 3 seasons will serve as case studies for nba exetuves of what the risks are of not having a clear direction and how not to waste assets you worked hard to accumulate.

Also Danny saying he would do this or that move 100 times out of hundred tells me he is a little over in his head...

Also a guy that was his right hand for years and picked up his brain ... left a huge mess in Phoenix

[Jamilmac99]

The Celtics wanted to sign Davis to a max contract but their hands were tied. All things considered Aigne salvaged the off season with the Kemba pick up and nice addition of Kanter. If they would’ve been able to keep Horford they’d still be in contention. The one possible oversight was not trading Kyrie at the deadline but still not sure who he could’ve gotten.

[bellerephon]

Danny just is awful drafting bigs.

He has to trade to get the prize big , and thats impossible to compete with the LA teams for the best centers , they all,head for LA soon as their rookie contracts are up ....so either you have to be a great drafter of bigs or tank for the best center like Philly till you get one.

From the position we are picking there are rarely any surefire big man prospects. You always go BPA.

He's had 16 years to draft a great big man. I'm still waiting.

I'm not sure Romeo was BPA.

I'm not being sarcastic, but what great big men could he have drafted? Giannis comes to mind. That was a big miss, but in his defense, no one, not even Milwaukee, had any idea how good Giannis would be. What other big men did he miss on? I'm not talking just about guys who have come into the league, but guys the Celtics actually could have drafted at their spot.

[Kuberski33]

The Celtics are in a good position still. Keep in mind that none of the contending teams are really complete yet in either conference. Neither are the Celtics.  But they've replaced Kyrie, potentially have a pair of potential whose skills compliment each other - and an all star 5 tool player hopefully returning to form. And then on the bench a bunch of young guys on good contracts all trying to take their games to the next level.

There was no way they were replacing Horford in one year, but they're positioned to move forward - and have the necessary chips/resources to get to real contender level should the right opportunities come along.

I would argue that Ainge has done a masterful job this off season - when he absolutely needed to.