Author Topic: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor  (Read 1063 times)

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Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2019, 12:50:56 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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The main lesson, as I see the situation: You need a superstar who gets lots of beneficial calls.
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Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2019, 12:54:05 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Lastly: The real lesson from Milwaukee and Toronto this year? Have a top-five player.



Yeah. 

The ways these playoffs have gone is a reminder that the overarching goal for any franchise that is serious about being "relevant" (i.e. being in the conversation for the title) and playing deep into May on an annual basis is to obtain and retain one of the handful of players that "matter" in the league.

Who is on that list?  Debatable, and the list changes all the time.  But it probably is something like:

Curry, Harden, Giannis, Dame, Embiid, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron. 

Anthony Davis might belong on that list.  Paul George has an argument for being on it.  Perhaps Karl Towns will be on that list soon.

Kyrie as recently as a year or so ago seemed like he belonged on the list, but this season casts serious doubt on that idea, in my mind.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2019, 12:55:16 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The main lesson, as I see the situation: You need a superstar who gets lots of beneficial calls.

Alternative framing:

"who forces the refs to make difficult decisions about foul calls"


If a star player routinely and very noticeably draws contact, especially close to the basket, it's going to be very difficult for the refs not to make calls in his favor, particularly if the star player is playing in front of a home crowd.


You need a legit MVP candidate, and it helps a great deal if that MVP candidate is elite on both ends of the floor.  Of course you have always needed that from the dawn of the NBA.  That is why I never put much stock in Boston this year.  I expected a better regular season given the depth on the team, but never expected Boston to be a real threat to win the title.

I always thought the idea of this Celts team was to pair elite, versatile team defense and a talented, deep supporting cast with a lead scorer with a deadly jumper and a historically great ability to create shots in crunch time against any amount of defensive pressure.

In other words, keep the game close with great defense and balanced scoring, and then let Kyrie do his thing in crunch time.


Problem is that the defense wasn't good enough, the balanced team scoring wasn't good enough to keep the game close, and the team fundamentally didn't trust each other or the game plan, so as soon as things started to go wrong, they reverted to hero ball and rushed outside jumpers.


I think the plan was sound.  The combination of young guys not developing as hoped, Hayward taking longer than anticipated to recover from injury, and the team as a whole not playing together and trusting one another prevented it from coming anywhere close to fruition.  Kyrie completely losing his ability to score in the last four games of the team's season sealed the deal.


All of that said, I agree that even in a best case scenario with everything working as expected, the Celts would have been a dark horse contender because they still would have been relying primarily on hitting a lot of timely jumpshots.  They were never built to be able to fall back on shots in the paint, free throws, or generating a ton of forced turnovers and fast break points.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 01:02:48 PM by PhoSita »
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2019, 01:05:17 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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The main lesson, as I see the situation: You need a superstar who gets lots of beneficial calls.

Alternative framing:

"who forces the refs to make difficult decisions about foul calls"


If a star player routinely and very noticeably draws contact, especially close to the basket, it's going to be very difficult for the refs not to make calls in his favor, particularly if the star player is playing in front of a home crowd.


You need a legit MVP candidate, and it helps a great deal if that MVP candidate is elite on both ends of the floor.  Of course you have always needed that from the dawn of the NBA.  That is why I never put much stock in Boston this year.  I expected a better regular season given the depth on the team, but never expected Boston to be a real threat to win the title.

I always thought the idea of this Celts team was to pair elite, versatile team defense and a talented, deep supporting cast with a lead scorer with a deadly jumper and a historically great ability to create shots in crunch time against any amount of defensive pressure.

In other words, keep the game close with great defense and balanced scoring, and then let Kyrie do his thing in crunch time.


Problem is that the defense wasn't good enough, the balanced team scoring wasn't good enough to keep the game close, and the team fundamentally didn't trust each other or the game plan, so as soon as things started to go wrong, they reverted to hero ball and rushed outside jumpers.


I think the plan was sound.  The combination of young guys not developing as hoped, Hayward taking longer than anticipated to recover from injury, and the team as a whole not playing together and trusting one another prevented it from coming anywhere close to fruition.  Kyrie completely losing his ability to score in the last four games of the team's season sealed the deal.


All of that said, I agree that even in a best case scenario with everything working as expected, the Celts would have been a dark horse contender because they still would have been relying primarily on hitting a lot of timely jumpshots.  They were never built to be able to fall back on shots in the paint, free throws, or generating a ton of forced turnovers and fast break points.

For my money, this is part of where the plan went wrong. My impression is that as great as Kyrie is as a ballhandler and shooter, he just isn't physically dominant enough to score consistently when teams load up to stop him. He's really, really good - top 25 player. He's not like peak LeBron, or KD or Kawhi, who can go through periods where they just can't be stopped. I don't think Kyrie is quite at that level.

Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2019, 02:28:58 PM »

Offline Big333223

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You need a legit MVP candidate, and it helps a great deal if that MVP candidate is elite on both ends of the floor.  Of course you have always needed that from the dawn of the NBA.  That is why I never put much stock in Boston this year.  I expected a better regular season given the depth on the team, but never expected Boston to be a real threat to win the title.
The main lesson, as I see the situation: You need a superstar who gets lots of beneficial calls.

This is, basically, the lesson. It always has been. There are a few exceptions but the exceptions tend to require an even more amazing feat (San Anonion winning in '14 is a result of over a decade of instilling winning culture and system, Detroit's magical mix of skillsets in '04).

It's why I've made peace with letting go of Tatum, who I adore. If it means getting a player like Anthony Davis and having a one-two punch with him and Kyrie, you have to do it.
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Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2019, 02:54:03 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I didn't see the game.  Only looking at the box score.  My takes are that both teams are big and Brogdon played very well.

Giannis and Lopez for MIL is a huge and skilled front court.  Toronto isn't bad with Gasol and Siakam.  People tend to puu puu size these days.  Plus with starting Mirotic, they have Middleton at SG.  That is a really long starting 5.

Brogdon being added really adds to their depth.  Ilyasova, Hill, and Brogdon form a really good veteran bench to back up a long and strong starting 5.

Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2019, 02:59:22 PM »

Offline mspring

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"For my money, this is part of where the plan went wrong. My impression is that as great as Kyrie is as a ballhandler and shooter, he just isn't physically dominant enough to score consistently when teams load up to stop him. He's really, really good - top 25 player. He's not like peak LeBron, or KD or Kawhi, who can go through periods where they just can't be stopped. I don't think Kyrie is quite at that level."

I agree with you on this.  One thing that stood out to me especially in the playoffs is that Kyrie's game is built on avoiding contact.  He has developed moves where he is able to get separation and does fall away turnarounds etc. and when they aren't falling he just misses his shots.  Even when he drives to the hoop he mostly goes away from the contact to finish, so again if his shots are off, he doesn't end up getting to the line.  To me, this separates him from a lot of the games' best.  I realize that to go into contact it is physically punishing, and that's where guys like the Greek Freak separate themselves because they are physically able to absorb the contact. 

The problem with our team is that most of our other players do not drive and take the contact, other than Brown and sometimes Taytum. 

Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2019, 03:01:34 PM »

Offline mspring

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"For my money, this is part of where the plan went wrong. My impression is that as great as Kyrie is as a ballhandler and shooter, he just isn't physically dominant enough to score consistently when teams load up to stop him. He's really, really good - top 25 player. He's not like peak LeBron, or KD or Kawhi, who can go through periods where they just can't be stopped. I don't think Kyrie is quite at that level."

I agree with you on this.  One thing that stood out to me especially in the playoffs is that Kyrie's game is built on avoiding contact.  He has developed moves where he is able to get separation and does fall away turnarounds etc. and when they aren't falling he just misses his shots.  Even when he drives to the hoop he mostly goes away from the contact to finish, so again if his shots are off, he doesn't end up getting to the line.  To me, this separates him from a lot of the games' best.  I realize that to go into contact it is physically punishing, and that's where guys like the Greek Freak separate themselves because they are physically able to absorb the contact.  The problem with our team is that most of our other players do not drive and take the contact, other than Brown and sometimes Tatum.


Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2019, 03:07:32 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

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Lastly: The real lesson from Milwaukee and Toronto this year? Have a top-five player.



Yeah. 

The ways these playoffs have gone is a reminder that the overarching goal for any franchise that is serious about being "relevant" (i.e. being in the conversation for the title) and playing deep into May on an annual basis is to obtain and retain one of the handful of players that "matter" in the league.

Who is on that list?  Debatable, and the list changes all the time.  But it probably is something like:

Curry, Harden, Giannis, Dame, Embiid, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron. 

Anthony Davis might belong on that list.  Paul George has an argument for being on it.  Perhaps Karl Towns will be on that list soon.

Kyrie as recently as a year or so ago seemed like he belonged on the list, but this season casts serious doubt on that idea, in my mind.

LeBron, Durant, and Davis should be at the highest tier list. And then Curry, Harden, Giannis, Leonard and so forth.

Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2019, 03:24:04 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Lastly: The real lesson from Milwaukee and Toronto this year? Have a top-five player.



Yeah. 

The ways these playoffs have gone is a reminder that the overarching goal for any franchise that is serious about being "relevant" (i.e. being in the conversation for the title) and playing deep into May on an annual basis is to obtain and retain one of the handful of players that "matter" in the league.

Who is on that list?  Debatable, and the list changes all the time.  But it probably is something like:

Curry, Harden, Giannis, Dame, Embiid, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron. 

Anthony Davis might belong on that list.  Paul George has an argument for being on it.  Perhaps Karl Towns will be on that list soon.

Kyrie as recently as a year or so ago seemed like he belonged on the list, but this season casts serious doubt on that idea, in my mind.

Kyrie sucked in the playoffs, but so did almost everyone except Horford, Morris, and Brown.

He's had one of the best career seasons 24/5/7 on 49/40/87 with solid defense....

Can we stop acting like ONE TERRIBLE playoff game hurt his stock that much? Also Kyrie was an awful leader, but can we stop listening to the media sensationalists who like to dramatize and take everything Kyrie has said out of context? So what happened to Irving on our 17 win streak last year? There is a lot of criticism, but I think we need to be reliant on focusing on the entire team/schemes/coaching as another liability also.

His comments about young guys don't know what it takes to win? Fact.

The, 'Who cares?' comment was in response to someone who said his shot wasn't going in. Sure, that was not the proper way of replying after a terrible shooting night, but it happens...

Find me one statement that he made that is factually incorrect. Because I will beg to differ that Irving's leadership albeit; very poor this season, compared to last is not that much of a noticeable difference.

And if you guys want to win a championship, Kyrie/AD is your best bet. I don't believe a single reporter who says AD will stay if Irving leaves. I just don't see how that is possible.
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Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2019, 03:30:31 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Lastly: The real lesson from Milwaukee and Toronto this year? Have a top-five player.



Yeah. 

The ways these playoffs have gone is a reminder that the overarching goal for any franchise that is serious about being "relevant" (i.e. being in the conversation for the title) and playing deep into May on an annual basis is to obtain and retain one of the handful of players that "matter" in the league.

Who is on that list?  Debatable, and the list changes all the time.  But it probably is something like:

Curry, Harden, Giannis, Dame, Embiid, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron. 

Anthony Davis might belong on that list.  Paul George has an argument for being on it.  Perhaps Karl Towns will be on that list soon.

Kyrie as recently as a year or so ago seemed like he belonged on the list, but this season casts serious doubt on that idea, in my mind.

LeBron, Durant, and Davis should be at the highest tier list. And then Curry, Harden, Giannis, Leonard and so forth.
Davis belongs no where near the highest tier.  He hasn't done a darn thing that would put him in that category of player. 

Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2019, 03:34:01 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Lastly: The real lesson from Milwaukee and Toronto this year? Have a top-five player.



Yeah. 

The ways these playoffs have gone is a reminder that the overarching goal for any franchise that is serious about being "relevant" (i.e. being in the conversation for the title) and playing deep into May on an annual basis is to obtain and retain one of the handful of players that "matter" in the league.

Who is on that list?  Debatable, and the list changes all the time.  But it probably is something like:

Curry, Harden, Giannis, Dame, Embiid, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron. 

Anthony Davis might belong on that list.  Paul George has an argument for being on it.  Perhaps Karl Towns will be on that list soon.

Kyrie as recently as a year or so ago seemed like he belonged on the list, but this season casts serious doubt on that idea, in my mind.

Kyrie sucked in the playoffs, but so did almost everyone except Horford, Morris, and Brown.

He's had one of the best career seasons 24/5/7 on 49/40/87 with solid defense....

Can we stop acting like ONE TERRIBLE playoff game hurt his stock that much? Also Kyrie was an awful leader, but can we stop listening to the media sensationalists who like to dramatize and take everything Kyrie has said out of context? So what happened to Irving on our 17 win streak last year? There is a lot of criticism, but I think we need to be reliant on focusing on the entire team/schemes/coaching as another liability also.

His comments about young guys don't know what it takes to win? Fact.

The, 'Who cares?' comment was in response to someone who said his shot wasn't going in. Sure, that was not the proper way of replying after a terrible shooting night, but it happens...

Find me one statement that he made that is factually incorrect. Because I will beg to differ that Irving's leadership albeit; very poor this season, compared to last is not that much of a noticeable difference.

And if you guys want to win a championship, Kyrie/AD is your best bet. I don't believe a single reporter who says AD will stay if Irving leaves. I just don't see how that is possible.

He was bad in the playoffs so that completely negates anything he's ever done in his career or in the regular season in the eyes of some people in Boston.

Damian Lillard had a worse playoff run last year than Kyrie did this year, and he bounced back just fine. People need to stop acting like Kyrie is G-League player now.
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Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2019, 03:41:58 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Lastly: The real lesson from Milwaukee and Toronto this year? Have a top-five player.



Yeah. 

The ways these playoffs have gone is a reminder that the overarching goal for any franchise that is serious about being "relevant" (i.e. being in the conversation for the title) and playing deep into May on an annual basis is to obtain and retain one of the handful of players that "matter" in the league.

Who is on that list?  Debatable, and the list changes all the time.  But it probably is something like:

Curry, Harden, Giannis, Dame, Embiid, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron. 

Anthony Davis might belong on that list.  Paul George has an argument for being on it.  Perhaps Karl Towns will be on that list soon.

Kyrie as recently as a year or so ago seemed like he belonged on the list, but this season casts serious doubt on that idea, in my mind.

LeBron, Durant, and Davis should be at the highest tier list. And then Curry, Harden, Giannis, Leonard and so forth.
Davis belongs no where near the highest tier.  He hasn't done a darn thing that would put him in that category of player.

You don't think that is conductive based on his team?

His best teammates have been Holiday, Cousins, and Rondo. And Cousins in the playoffs was short lived..

In 13 games he averages 30.5 PPG, 1.8 APG, 2.5 BPG, 1.8 SPG, and 12.7 RPG...

How is that not superb numbers? I guess we will have to wait and see what happens when you actually put a great team around him.


Lastly: The real lesson from Milwaukee and Toronto this year? Have a top-five player.



Yeah. 

The ways these playoffs have gone is a reminder that the overarching goal for any franchise that is serious about being "relevant" (i.e. being in the conversation for the title) and playing deep into May on an annual basis is to obtain and retain one of the handful of players that "matter" in the league.

Who is on that list?  Debatable, and the list changes all the time.  But it probably is something like:

Curry, Harden, Giannis, Dame, Embiid, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron. 

Anthony Davis might belong on that list.  Paul George has an argument for being on it.  Perhaps Karl Towns will be on that list soon.

Kyrie as recently as a year or so ago seemed like he belonged on the list, but this season casts serious doubt on that idea, in my mind.

Kyrie sucked in the playoffs, but so did almost everyone except Horford, Morris, and Brown.

He's had one of the best career seasons 24/5/7 on 49/40/87 with solid defense....

Can we stop acting like ONE TERRIBLE playoff game hurt his stock that much? Also Kyrie was an awful leader, but can we stop listening to the media sensationalists who like to dramatize and take everything Kyrie has said out of context? So what happened to Irving on our 17 win streak last year? There is a lot of criticism, but I think we need to be reliant on focusing on the entire team/schemes/coaching as another liability also.

His comments about young guys don't know what it takes to win? Fact.

The, 'Who cares?' comment was in response to someone who said his shot wasn't going in. Sure, that was not the proper way of replying after a terrible shooting night, but it happens...

Find me one statement that he made that is factually incorrect. Because I will beg to differ that Irving's leadership albeit; very poor this season, compared to last is not that much of a noticeable difference.

And if you guys want to win a championship, Kyrie/AD is your best bet. I don't believe a single reporter who says AD will stay if Irving leaves. I just don't see how that is possible.

He was bad in the playoffs so that completely negates anything he's ever done in his career or in the regular season in the eyes of some people in Boston.

Damian Lillard had a worse playoff run last year than Kyrie did this year, and he bounced back just fine. People need to stop acting like Kyrie is G-League player now.

Imagine if the Celtics got swept 4-0 by the Pacers... Do you know how much hate and animosity would be directed at Irving only?...

This forum would explode.
"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different

Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2019, 03:46:53 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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Lastly: The real lesson from Milwaukee and Toronto this year? Have a top-five player.

Yeah. 
The ways these playoffs have gone is a reminder that the overarching goal for any franchise that is serious about being "relevant" (i.e. being in the conversation for the title) and playing deep into May on an annual basis is to obtain and retain one of the handful of players that "matter" in the league.

Who is on that list?  Debatable, and the list changes all the time.  But it probably is something like:

Curry, Harden, Giannis, Dame, Embiid, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron. 

Anthony Davis might belong on that list.  Paul George has an argument for being on it.  Perhaps Karl Towns will be on that list soon.

Kyrie as recently as a year or so ago seemed like he belonged on the list, but this season casts serious doubt on that idea, in my mind.

LeBron, Durant, and Davis should be at the highest tier list. And then Curry, Harden, Giannis, Leonard and so forth.
Davis belongs no where near the highest tier.  He hasn't done a darn thing that would put him in that category of player.

In 13 playoff games, his averages are 30.5 pts, 12.7 rebounds, 2.5 blocks; his TS% is .593.

I agree he hasn't proved he can carry a team the way LeBron did last year, but his performances have been awfully good, especially for a guy on a team with no other major scoring threats.  Surround him with a team like this year's Bucks and I see him delivering at least as much as Giannis.

Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2019, 03:49:07 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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You need a legit MVP candidate, and it helps a great deal if that MVP candidate is elite on both ends of the floor.  Of course you have always needed that from the dawn of the NBA.  That is why I never put much stock in Boston this year.  I expected a better regular season given the depth on the team, but never expected Boston to be a real threat to win the title.
The main lesson, as I see the situation: You need a superstar who gets lots of beneficial calls.

This is, basically, the lesson. It always has been. There are a few exceptions but the exceptions tend to require an even more amazing feat (San Anonion winning in '14 is a result of over a decade of instilling winning culture and system, Detroit's magical mix of skillsets in '04).

It's why I've made peace with letting go of Tatum, who I adore. If it means getting a player like Anthony Davis and having a one-two punch with him and Kyrie, you have to do it.

This is basically where I'm at. Tatum could become a very good player, but the odds of him ever reaching Davis/Leonard/Curry level are slim to none. And we aren't winning without that type of player.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis

 

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