Author Topic: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor  (Read 1533 times)

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Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2019, 03:50:45 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Lastly: The real lesson from Milwaukee and Toronto this year? Have a top-five player.

Yeah. 
The ways these playoffs have gone is a reminder that the overarching goal for any franchise that is serious about being "relevant" (i.e. being in the conversation for the title) and playing deep into May on an annual basis is to obtain and retain one of the handful of players that "matter" in the league.

Who is on that list?  Debatable, and the list changes all the time.  But it probably is something like:

Curry, Harden, Giannis, Dame, Embiid, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron. 

Anthony Davis might belong on that list.  Paul George has an argument for being on it.  Perhaps Karl Towns will be on that list soon.

Kyrie as recently as a year or so ago seemed like he belonged on the list, but this season casts serious doubt on that idea, in my mind.

LeBron, Durant, and Davis should be at the highest tier list. And then Curry, Harden, Giannis, Leonard and so forth.
Davis belongs no where near the highest tier.  He hasn't done a darn thing that would put him in that category of player.

In 13 playoff games, his averages are 30.5 pts, 12.7 rebounds, 2.5 blocks; his TS% is .593.

I agree he hasn't proved he can carry a team the way LeBron did last year, but his performances have been awfully good, especially for a guy on a team with no other major scoring threats.  Surround him with a team like this year's Bucks and I see him delivering at least as much as Giannis.

The difference, I think, is that Davis is a generational talent, whereas LeBron is an all-time talent. All-time talents can carry crappy teams to titles, or close to it, as LeBron has; generational talents can do a lot, but they have to have more good fortune and more good players around them (think Nowitzki the one year he got a title).
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Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2019, 04:13:00 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Can we stop acting like ONE TERRIBLE playoff game hurt his stock that much?

- Four terrible playoff games in a row

- Preceded by an entire season of griping, throwing younger teammates under the bus, talking himself up as a shot-making basketball genius, undermining his coach, acting as though and explicitly stating that the regular season doesn't matter and only the playoffs matter, etc.


Coming up completely empty against the Bucks is bad but that alone wouldn't necessarily knock him down a peg in my eyes.  But to me, being a franchise star requires some ability to lead the team and make teammates better.  At the very least, the franchise star should not be actively harmful to team chemistry.


Counter point would be LeBron, who at times has actively hurt his own team's chemistry by being a passive aggressive primadona.  Not to mention taking the regular season off on the defensive end (in recent season).  I suppose LeBron is so good that he can get away with it.  Kyrie certainly is not.
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Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2019, 04:20:03 PM »

Offline td450

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Lastly: The real lesson from Milwaukee and Toronto this year? Have a top-five player.

Yeah. 
The ways these playoffs have gone is a reminder that the overarching goal for any franchise that is serious about being "relevant" (i.e. being in the conversation for the title) and playing deep into May on an annual basis is to obtain and retain one of the handful of players that "matter" in the league.

Who is on that list?  Debatable, and the list changes all the time.  But it probably is something like:

Curry, Harden, Giannis, Dame, Embiid, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron. 

Anthony Davis might belong on that list.  Paul George has an argument for being on it.  Perhaps Karl Towns will be on that list soon.

Kyrie as recently as a year or so ago seemed like he belonged on the list, but this season casts serious doubt on that idea, in my mind.

LeBron, Durant, and Davis should be at the highest tier list. And then Curry, Harden, Giannis, Leonard and so forth.
Davis belongs no where near the highest tier.  He hasn't done a darn thing that would put him in that category of player.

In 13 playoff games, his averages are 30.5 pts, 12.7 rebounds, 2.5 blocks; his TS% is .593.

I agree he hasn't proved he can carry a team the way LeBron did last year, but his performances have been awfully good, especially for a guy on a team with no other major scoring threats.  Surround him with a team like this year's Bucks and I see him delivering at least as much as Giannis.

The difference, I think, is that Davis is a generational talent, whereas LeBron is an all-time talent. All-time talents can carry crappy teams to titles, or close to it, as LeBron has; generational talents can do a lot, but they have to have more good fortune and more good players around them (think Nowitzki the one year he got a title).

Davis has not proved he's a generational talent. That essentially means the best player over a generation, i.e: 10-20 year period. Davis is an MVP candidate level talent. LeBron was a generational talent. There have been less than 10 of those guys ever.

What you need is situational. Someone has to be at the top, and maybe a few guys are at the same level. Bird and Magic were generational talents who showed up at the same time, so it was a war between them. When Jordan was in his prime, the gap was very large, so no one else could compete against him. Same with peak LeBron. If there is no one who is clearly better than everyone else, the dynamics change.

Unfortunately, it is starting to look like Giannis is a generational talent like LeBron was. In two years, the gap between him and everyone else might be substantial. If so, history tells us he's likely to win half or more of the titles over the next 6-7 years. The rest are up for grabs by the best other teams, usually with the best other players. Davis might be good enough to steal a title or two if he's on a loaded team. He might also never be enough.

Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2019, 04:44:11 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Lastly: The real lesson from Milwaukee and Toronto this year? Have a top-five player.



Yeah. 

The ways these playoffs have gone is a reminder that the overarching goal for any franchise that is serious about being "relevant" (i.e. being in the conversation for the title) and playing deep into May on an annual basis is to obtain and retain one of the handful of players that "matter" in the league.

Who is on that list?  Debatable, and the list changes all the time.  But it probably is something like:

Curry, Harden, Giannis, Dame, Embiid, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron. 

Anthony Davis might belong on that list.  Paul George has an argument for being on it.  Perhaps Karl Towns will be on that list soon.

Kyrie as recently as a year or so ago seemed like he belonged on the list, but this season casts serious doubt on that idea, in my mind.

LeBron, Durant, and Davis should be at the highest tier list. And then Curry, Harden, Giannis, Leonard and so forth.
Davis belongs no where near the highest tier.  He hasn't done a darn thing that would put him in that category of player.

You don't think that is conductive based on his team?

His best teammates have been Holiday, Cousins, and Rondo. And Cousins in the playoffs was short lived..

In 13 games he averages 30.5 PPG, 1.8 APG, 2.5 BPG, 1.8 SPG, and 12.7 RPG...

How is that not superb numbers? I guess we will have to wait and see what happens when you actually put a great team around him.
No I don't.  You can't have that many seasons in the league and have that little team success and be one of those special players.  In his 7 seasons in the league the Pelicans have made the playoffs just twice winning 45 and 48 games those 2 seasons but never winning more than 34 games in any other season.  The 15-16 Pelicans had Davis along with Eric Gordon, Tyreke Evans, Jrue Holiday, Ryan Anderson, Omer Asik and had at various points Kendrick Perkins, Alexis Ajinca, Alzono Gee, Toney Douglas, Ish Smith, Dante Cunningham, Tim Frazier, James Ennis, and Norris Cole.  That team won 30 games despite some solid starting talent and a lot of depth.  Two seasons before that they had a very similar talent level and won 34 games (in between was the 45 win, 1st round exit).  In other words, they came apart at the seams.  And let's be clear, you give someone like Lebron James that level of talent for 3 years in a row and they are a deep playoff team without question, even early on in Lebron's career. 

Even someone like Garnett who had significant playoff failures in Minnesota was leading a 40+ win team year in and year out, his talent level was no where near what Davis has had in New Orleans.  Yes the Pelicans have been mismanaged making a lot of short sighted moves, but they've still put together enough talent that they should have been consistently a playoff team if Davis is really that good.  Davis just isn't on that level, I don't think given the lack of winning.  I'd love to have him in Boston as he would make Boston a lot better, but I have real and legitimate concerns that Davis just isn't a true franchise talent and give us what we really want.  Still have to take the risk, especially if it means keeping Kyrie, but also still have to be cautious about what Davis actually is (and that is of course when he is actually on the court as he has a nasty habit of missing a lot of games - which also might lead to some of that lack of success). 
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2019, 05:38:44 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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Lastly: The real lesson from Milwaukee and Toronto this year? Have a top-five player.



Yeah. 

The ways these playoffs have gone is a reminder that the overarching goal for any franchise that is serious about being "relevant" (i.e. being in the conversation for the title) and playing deep into May on an annual basis is to obtain and retain one of the handful of players that "matter" in the league.

Who is on that list?  Debatable, and the list changes all the time.  But it probably is something like:

Curry, Harden, Giannis, Dame, Embiid, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron. 

Anthony Davis might belong on that list.  Paul George has an argument for being on it.  Perhaps Karl Towns will be on that list soon.

Kyrie as recently as a year or so ago seemed like he belonged on the list, but this season casts serious doubt on that idea, in my mind.

LeBron, Durant, and Davis should be at the highest tier list. And then Curry, Harden, Giannis, Leonard and so forth.
Davis belongs no where near the highest tier.  He hasn't done a darn thing that would put him in that category of player.

You don't think that is conductive based on his team?

His best teammates have been Holiday, Cousins, and Rondo. And Cousins in the playoffs was short lived..

In 13 games he averages 30.5 PPG, 1.8 APG, 2.5 BPG, 1.8 SPG, and 12.7 RPG...

How is that not superb numbers? I guess we will have to wait and see what happens when you actually put a great team around him.
No I don't.  You can't have that many seasons in the league and have that little team success and be one of those special players.  In his 7 seasons in the league the Pelicans have made the playoffs just twice winning 45 and 48 games those 2 seasons but never winning more than 34 games in any other season.  The 15-16 Pelicans had Davis along with Eric Gordon, Tyreke Evans, Jrue Holiday, Ryan Anderson, Omer Asik and had at various points Kendrick Perkins, Alexis Ajinca, Alzono Gee, Toney Douglas, Ish Smith, Dante Cunningham, Tim Frazier, James Ennis, and Norris Cole.  That team won 30 games despite some solid starting talent and a lot of depth.  Two seasons before that they had a very similar talent level and won 34 games (in between was the 45 win, 1st round exit).  In other words, they came apart at the seams.  And let's be clear, you give someone like Lebron James that level of talent for 3 years in a row and they are a deep playoff team without question, even early on in Lebron's career. 

Even someone like Garnett who had significant playoff failures in Minnesota was leading a 40+ win team year in and year out, his talent level was no where near what Davis has had in New Orleans.  Yes the Pelicans have been mismanaged making a lot of short sighted moves, but they've still put together enough talent that they should have been consistently a playoff team if Davis is really that good.  Davis just isn't on that level, I don't think given the lack of winning.  I'd love to have him in Boston as he would make Boston a lot better, but I have real and legitimate concerns that Davis just isn't a true franchise talent and give us what we really want.  Still have to take the risk, especially if it means keeping Kyrie, but also still have to be cautious about what Davis actually is (and that is of course when he is actually on the court as he has a nasty habit of missing a lot of games - which also might lead to some of that lack of success).

Yep.  TP.

Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2019, 05:42:42 PM »

Offline wiley

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Can we stop acting like ONE TERRIBLE playoff game hurt his stock that much?

- Four terrible playoff games in a row

- Preceded by an entire season of griping, throwing younger teammates under the bus, talking himself up as a shot-making basketball genius, undermining his coach, acting as though and explicitly stating that the regular season doesn't matter and only the playoffs matter, etc.


Coming up completely empty against the Bucks is bad but that alone wouldn't necessarily knock him down a peg in my eyes.  But to me, being a franchise star requires some ability to lead the team and make teammates better.  At the very least, the franchise star should not be actively harmful to team chemistry.


Counter point would be LeBron, who at times has actively hurt his own team's chemistry by being a passive aggressive primadona.  Not to mention taking the regular season off on the defensive end (in recent season).  I suppose LeBron is so good that he can get away with it.  Kyrie certainly is not.

Thank you and Amen.  And TP. 

Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2019, 05:43:14 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
You know he couldnt do that because of the Rose rule

Does the Rose rule prevent you from signing some veterans or making another deal, I was not talking about the Davis deal and you presume much.  I was talking about signing a big to give us some more size and depth.   We got manhandled by MIL and their size killed us.

Re: Lessons we can learn from Mil & Tor
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2019, 05:48:19 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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I could be very easily wrong on this, but, I think it breaks down to one basic element.

The Milwaukee Bucks run three "7 footers" on the floor. Not all the time and, beyond the Freak, the players aren't that good, but, if you do the math? There are three "larger" opponents standing between your shooter and the basket.

Where you gonna get that? Nowhere in "small ball land" that is for sure. 

It is about mass + length = scoring difficulty

Last night:
Giannis
Mirotic
Lopez combined for 75 minutes and 65 points last night

About the same stats for the four games the Bucks won against the Celtics.

The Bucks have a big frontcourt. They have two big guys on the floor for all of the game and three big guys to start and finish.

The Raptors bench played 39 minutes
The Bucks bench played 78 minutes

The Raps were dish rags by the end of the game.

This was true in the Celtics series also. Stevens ran a shorter bench which played fewer minutes than the Bucks bench.

So, we ask Horford - Morris - Baynes
To match with Giannis - Mirotic - Lopez - front court?

Guess what? We learned that it didn't work.

See how Raps adjust. Maybe we can learn from them.