Author Topic: BOSTON GLOBE: Brad Stevens needs to make some changes in his approach  (Read 2786 times)

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Offline Androslav

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The more you look into this season and the things that went "wrong", the more it's clear Kyrie Irving isn't at fault for any of it.

Mediocre roster that overachieved in 2018.   The fool's gold "success" got to the head of the young guys.  Players were sulking from Day 1, because they weren't "the man" anymore.

At the end of the day, they didn't have nearly enough talent to compete with a team like the Bucks.  Anyone who says otherwise is still leaning on the false narrative that we had multiple all-stars on this team.   

We had 1.  Kyrie Irving.  That's it.  49 wins and a 1st round exit makes perfect sense.
We overachieved! Huraaaayyy!  ;D
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Offline RJ87

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Brads job was definitely tough this year, it was his 1st season that he didn't graduate with A+.

Did Pop get any bad rep after mishandling Kawhi situation? No, Pop defended his franchise and his medical staff that almost ruined his career with consecutive misdiagnosis. And Kawhi is better player than anyone Brad (maybe even Doc) ever had?
He was supposed to lead them for 10 more years, but they mishandled it.
That's a huge blunder. Now they are without any elite talent and it shows.
How about mishandling LMA for 2 years? He admitted the failure himself.
How about not being able to give instructions to your team (intentional foul) on the brink of playoff exit this year?
He gave up on that play.
What about his defensive rebounding in 2013, when he sat Duncan, and it cost them a title?

What I'm trying to say is that all coaches, even the very best, have their challenges.
Brad just had more this year than just about anyone in the league.
He did't ace them, but that doesn't make him a bad coach.
He owned his share of the failure, he is aware of the situation.

People like to point fingers in one or two directions. I guess to simplify, even though it was clearly a collective disappointment.
He will learn and so will our much more proven management.

Pop has 5 championships as a head coach. 3 COTY wins. He had a crazy streak of 50 win seasons dating back to the 1998–99 lockout season that only ended last season. He mishandled LMA but reeled him back in and got him to extend his deal. Kawhi is TBD because I do think market size matters a great to him and his uncle.

Brad is a good coach, he may even be a great one. But he isn't anywhere near Pop's level and therefore doesn't get the same cache.
Quote
I guess it’s a good thing
That most people around here seem to always be more in love with the future than the present.

Posted  by speeddemonnd  on Jun 18, 2019 | 9:06 PM

Offline keevsnick

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The more you look into this season and the things that went "wrong", the more it's clear Kyrie Irving isn't at fault for any of it.

Mediocre roster that overachieved in 2018.   The fool's gold "success" got to the head of the young guys.  Players were sulking from Day 1, because they weren't "the man" anymore.

At the end of the day, they didn't have nearly enough talent to compete with a team like the Bucks.  Anyone who says otherwise is still leaning on the false narrative that we had multiple all-stars on this team.   

We had 1.  Kyrie Irving.  That's it.  49 wins and a 1st round exit makes perfect sense.

And the one we did have played terribly while sulking and acting like a complete headcase. If we had just removed Kyrie from our roster for the Bucks series we inarguably would have been better off. No matter how you slice it, Kyrie was a big reason why our season was a massive failure. Ignoring that, pretending it wasn't the case, does nobody any favors.

Offline Androslav

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Brads job was definitely tough this year, it was his 1st season that he didn't graduate with A+.

Did Pop get any bad rep after mishandling Kawhi situation? No, Pop defended his franchise and his medical staff that almost ruined his career with consecutive misdiagnosis. And Kawhi is better player than anyone Brad (maybe even Doc) ever had?
He was supposed to lead them for 10 more years, but they mishandled it.
That's a huge blunder. Now they are without any elite talent and it shows.
How about mishandling LMA for 2 years? He admitted the failure himself.
How about not being able to give instructions to your team (intentional foul) on the brink of playoff exit this year?
He gave up on that play.
What about his defensive rebounding in 2013, when he sat Duncan, and it cost them a title?

What I'm trying to say is that all coaches, even the very best, have their challenges.
Brad just had more this year than just about anyone in the league.
He did't ace them, but that doesn't make him a bad coach.
He owned his share of the failure, he is aware of the situation.

People like to point fingers in one or two directions. I guess to simplify, even though it was clearly a collective disappointment.
He will learn and so will our much more proven management.

Pop has 5 championships as a head coach. 3 COTY wins. He had a crazy streak of 50 win seasons dating back to the 1998–99 lockout season that only ended last season. He mishandled LMA but reeled him back in and got him to extend his deal. Kawhi is TBD because I do think market size matters a great to him and his uncle.

Brad is a good coach, he may even be a great one. But he isn't anywhere near Pop's level and therefore doesn't get the same cache.
Pop has been (HC) coaching for at least 23-24 years now. All along he had multiple allstars.
It is unfair to measure their achievements now. Pop is 70 and could retire soon, Brad just started recently.
Pop's 2nd season team had Duncan & Robinson in a league with less overall talent.
Brads 2nd season team had Avery Bradley and IT for 20 games.
He also won 50 games with some, lets be real, suspect teams.

I am not saying that Brad is Pop, just that if you work long enough, even if you are really good, you will make mistakes.
"The joy of the balling under the rims."

Offline RJ87

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The more you look into this season and the things that went "wrong", the more it's clear Kyrie Irving isn't at fault for any of it.

Mediocre roster that overachieved in 2018.   The fool's gold "success" got to the head of the young guys.  Players were sulking from Day 1, because they weren't "the man" anymore.

At the end of the day, they didn't have nearly enough talent to compete with a team like the Bucks.  Anyone who says otherwise is still leaning on the false narrative that we had multiple all-stars on this team.   

We had 1.  Kyrie Irving.  That's it.  49 wins and a 1st round exit makes perfect sense.

I don't want this to devolve into yet another Kyrie thread - there are more than enough of those already - but he holds blame. Everyone should here because it's clear there were issues from the outset and it seemed no one knew what to do.

Some of what you said is right, though. We didn't have nearly the talent we all thought we had. Tatum didn't make the leap we thought he would, Gordon spent most of the season looking like a poor man's Tyreke Evans, and as steady as Al is he's not a guy who can carry a significant offensive load. We really needed a legitimate offensive 2nd threat that could get us a consistent 17-20 pts per game ala CJ McCollum or Khris Middleton or Jamal Murray or Klay Thompson or even a Pascal Siakam.
Quote
I guess it’s a good thing
That most people around here seem to always be more in love with the future than the present.

Posted  by speeddemonnd  on Jun 18, 2019 | 9:06 PM

Offline Atzar

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I don't really buy this idea that Brad Stevens can't handle a 'big personality'.  He worked just fine with IT, who is a huge personality and has generally been a malcontent at most of his other NBA stops.

I'm mostly inclined to write this season off as a perfect storm.  We had a lot of subplots, and most of them didn't play out well.  Our young group, coming off of an overachieving 2018, thought they deserved larger roles than they got and then rankled when 'their' minutes and assignments went to Hayward.  Brown eventually found his place, but Tatum and especially Rozier never did.  Hayward, for his part, looked like a shell of himself until about 80% of the way through the season.  He showed flashes of the real Hayward, but no consistency.  Kyrie spent a large part of the season practicing his sulk face, and the AD bombshell shook our locker room up hard. 

And yes, Stevens failed.  I agree with that.  I don't think any coach would have succeeded in this circus this year.  It is what it is.  He'll have a shot to make whatever adjustments he needs to make and try this again in a few months.  Kyrie, Tatum, Hayward, same thing.  This chapter isn't our last.

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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I think most Cs fans (including myself) agree that putting Hayward in the starting lineup right way was a big mistake.

I agree with this and had a number of posts saying coming off the bench and easing in seemed like the best thing (often to a chorus of "they aren't going to pay him $30M to come off the bench" replies).  But that said, even if this was a mistake, how much of the problem did this really cause? If he had started out on the bench, what is the difference?

I am still good with Stevens. I suggest we don't give up on him just yet.

I can't say how much of the problems this caused, but even if Hayward wasn't really taking shots from Brown and Tatum and Rozier, the youngsters' egos were getting stepped on.

Now, I put part of the blame on those three, because they weren't mature enough to realize that one good playoff run isn't enough to put them ahead of an all-star-level talent on the depth chart.

That said, it might've been better for everyone involved if Stevens had gradually worked Hayward back into the starting lineup. Because I'm sure the young guys, after watching Hayward struggle mightily for a while, were probably thinking, "Uhhh, what?"
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Offline LarBrd33

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The more you look into this season and the things that went "wrong", the more it's clear Kyrie Irving isn't at fault for any of it.

Mediocre roster that overachieved in 2018.   The fool's gold "success" got to the head of the young guys.  Players were sulking from Day 1, because they weren't "the man" anymore.

At the end of the day, they didn't have nearly enough talent to compete with a team like the Bucks.  Anyone who says otherwise is still leaning on the false narrative that we had multiple all-stars on this team.   

We had 1.  Kyrie Irving.  That's it.  49 wins and a 1st round exit makes perfect sense.


Sure, if you post your exact narrative enough times in enough threads it'll take hold and become truth.
It is true. 

A team of Dame Lillard, Rudy Gay, Marc Gasol and Trevor Ariza isn't beating the Bucks either... so why on earth would people expect a team of Kyrie, Tatum, Horford and Hayward to?

This was a mediocre roster.  It remains a mediocre roster.  If Kyrie leaves, it will be a roster that could win 35 games.   Fans blaming him don't have perspective on this team.  They overreacted to us going on an improbable playoff run, expected the world, and now blame Kyrie because it's easier than accepting reality.

Offline mctyson

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The more you look into this season and the things that went "wrong", the more it's clear Kyrie Irving isn't at fault for any of it.

Mediocre roster that overachieved in 2018.   The fool's gold "success" got to the head of the young guys.  Players were sulking from Day 1, because they weren't "the man" anymore.

At the end of the day, they didn't have nearly enough talent to compete with a team like the Bucks.  Anyone who says otherwise is still leaning on the false narrative that we had multiple all-stars on this team.   

We had 1.  Kyrie Irving.  That's it.  49 wins and a 1st round exit makes perfect sense.

I mean I generally agree with your points but they won 55 games last season.  Mediocre rosters do not win 55 games in the NBA, then win in the 40s.

Offline PhoSita

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The more you look into this season and the things that went "wrong", the more it's clear Kyrie Irving isn't at fault for any of it.

Mediocre roster that overachieved in 2018.   The fool's gold "success" got to the head of the young guys.  Players were sulking from Day 1, because they weren't "the man" anymore.

At the end of the day, they didn't have nearly enough talent to compete with a team like the Bucks.  Anyone who says otherwise is still leaning on the false narrative that we had multiple all-stars on this team.   

We had 1.  Kyrie Irving.  That's it.  49 wins and a 1st round exit makes perfect sense.


Sure, if you post your exact narrative enough times in enough threads it'll take hold and become truth.
It is true. 

A team of Dame Lillard, Rudy Gay, Marc Gasol and Trevor Ariza isn't beating the Bucks either... so why on earth would people expect a team of Kyrie, Tatum, Horford and Hayward to?

This was a mediocre roster.  It remains a mediocre roster.  If Kyrie leaves, it will be a roster that could win 35 games.   Fans blaming him don't have perspective on this team.  They overreacted to us going on an improbable playoff run, expected the world, and now blame Kyrie because it's easier than accepting reality.


We've had this discussion before and I don't feel the need to stand up for the legions of straw man fans you're referencing here.



Suffice it to say that repeatedly stating as fact a series of argumentative premises and then drawing an inflammatory, confrontational conclusion from said premises while calling out an imaginary class of "fans" who had "unrealistic expectations" is more effective on talk radio than it is on message boards.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Offline gift

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I think most Cs fans (including myself) agree that putting Hayward in the starting lineup right way was a big mistake.

I agree with this and had a number of posts saying coming off the bench and easing in seemed like the best thing (often to a chorus of "they aren't going to pay him $30M to come off the bench" replies).  But that said, even if this was a mistake, how much of the problem did this really cause?  If he had started out on the bench, what is the difference?

I am still good with Stevens.  I suggest we don't give up on him just yet.

I really don't see the harm that starting Hayward caused. It's not like he took over the offense and jacked up shots. Even early on, it seemed the problem was that he deferred and played off-ball to Irving, Tatum and Brown. What were their complaints? That they missed shots and defensive assignments because Hayward was on the court? That Hayward was too passive? And when Stevens benched Hayward it didn't solve those problems. Brown was still in a slump off the bench, Tatum still iso'd, Irving was Irving. I just think starting Hayward is a high profile excuse.

From Jackie Mac's piece earlier this season:
Quote
Still, because the Celtics considered Hayward a key cog in their championship aspirations, they determined that the best way to help him rehab was to let him work out the kinks on the court. It was a strategy that backfired miserably. As Hayward faltered early in the season, his play became stilted, hesitant. His teammates observed this, some from the bench, and chafed at their own lack of opportunity.

"I never felt like guys were frustrated with me," Hayward said, "but you could feel that guys were frustrated with their situation. Everyone in the NBA wants a bigger role. It was tough on everybody. We were trying to win basketball games, but at the same time, I was trying to get back to being the player I was, and some of that involved getting reps."

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26131924/the-waiting-gordon-hayward-hardest-part

These issues didn't just recently appear and I don't believe anyone is retconning what happened to redirect blame. This has been an issue.

I'm aware of both of those quotes. I read Jackie's piece at the time. Problem is, it doesn't really answer my questions. In what way did Hayward starting affect those other players? He initially stayed out of Irving, Tatum, Brown's way (people thought he was being too deferential at the time) and he did not take Rozier's, Morris' opportunities and Smart doesn't seem like he was bothered. So who was bothered and how did that affect the team's performance?

I again say that it's an excuse and not a cause. Whether the players are using that excuse or not does not determine whether it is just an easy excuse.

You're asking questions that only those players themselves can answer. Unfortunately, I don't have that type of player access and I don't expect any of those guys to go on record and explain themselves.

My best guess is that Rozier saw a slight reduction in his regular season minutes (and a significant drop from his postseason minutes), and he wasn't happy. That would go with his comments that he felt he sacrificed the most of anyone this season. He's a guy in a contract year and his personal "Scarry Terry" brand took a bit of a hit. Jaylen went from 31 mins per game to 26 minutes despite being our leading scorer in the playoffs a season ago.

And it may have not been starting exactly, but the allotment of minutes he was given. During the first 20 games of the season, he averaged 27 minutes a game. Despite his subpar play, he averaged more minutes per game in the month of December than Terry or Jaylen and never averaged less than 23.8 minutes in a given month. Basically, no matter how badly he played he was always guaranteed minutes at the expense of guys who felt they were better - whether that's justified or not is another conversation.

There's no reason for Rozier to blame the bulk his reduced role on starting Hayward, when the biggest impact by far was that Irving took his minutes/role/starting job. Rozier was never going to start for this team and he was never going to have a huge role with Irving taking up 33 MPG, Smart handling pg duties for part of the back up time, and with Brown and Tatum looking to establish themselves on the offensive end. Hayward could have sat and Rozier would have been in the same situation. Besides, Rozier didn't exactly prove early on that he was worthy of a larger role, shooting 37% for the first tenth of the season while Hayward was shooting 43% over that time. Even if Hayward was responsible for Rozier's reduction, it's hard to blame the coach for playing the less bad of two struggling players.

And Jaylen was starting next to Hayward and averaged more minutes and higher usage rate than Hayward. Through the first 12 games Hayward averaged 25 MPG and Brown averaged 30 MPG. Hayward's USG% was 19.9% while Brown's was 21.1%. Interestingly, they both missed one game each during the first 12 and with Hayward out, Brown had his lowest usage (13.8%) to that point in the season, while Hayward's usage increased from his average to that point in the season slightly to 21.9%.

It does matter whether it was justified that the players felt the way they did, because if it was not justified then the players were making excuses despite the coach making the right decision. And that's my argument, that it is entirely an excuse.

Online gouki88

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I wonder if no longer having Walter made this big of an impact

Offline KGs Knee

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You'd have to either not be paying attention or be related to Brad to not recognize how bad he was this year.  Totally in over his head.  He'll get more opportunities, but I have zero faith in this guy.  His offensive scheme sucks, he doesn't read his player's emotions well, and it's entirely possible he may have already lost a good portion of the lockerroom, which could be a problem if some of those same players return.

Brad has some soul searching to do this summer.

Offline Chief Macho

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You'd have to either not be paying attention or be related to Brad to not recognize how bad he was this year.  Totally in over his head.  He'll get more opportunities, but I have zero faith in this guy.  His offensive scheme sucks, he doesn't read his player's emotions well, and it's entirely possible he may have already lost a good portion of the lockerroom, which could be a problem if some of those same players return.

Brad has some soul searching to do this summer.

total nonsense.   he will learn and improve.   just like he always has. 

Online gouki88

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You'd have to either not be paying attention or be related to Brad to not recognize how bad he was this year.  Totally in over his head.  He'll get more opportunities, but I have zero faith in this guy.  His offensive scheme sucks, he doesn't read his player's emotions well, and it's entirely possible he may have already lost a good portion of the lockerroom, which could be a problem if some of those same players return.

Brad has some soul searching to do this summer.

total nonsense.   he will learn and improve.   just like he always has.
What part of it is nonsense?

 

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