Woj: No one wants Love more than Ainge

[flybono]

The talk of Olynyk becoming a potential dominate player is absurd.
Quality backup at best.

Celtics need a dominate bigman in the paint who can play D and score in the post much like McHale.

If KO is the hangup in any deal to bring back such a player, Ainge should be fired..

[hwangjini_1]

Sullinger, Lee, Jerebko and Draft considerations (not Brooklyn's picks)

Sully would be a good fit there I think and swapping him out for Love cancels out the rebounding loss.  So maybe you start there, but I don't like the idea of losing Crowder.  Lee and Jerebko are throw ins from their standpoint.  You'd probably have to give up one of the 'good' #1's.

Problem is though, they'd have to sign Sully.

That's true. 

Sully has a bad attitude, plays defense well but only when he feels like it, likes to complain on every call.  He'd be a perfect with Lebron in Cleveland!

lol jokes aside though, Sully does replace a lot of what Love gives them (except three point shooting..which was proably loves biggest asset really).  On his own he's obviously no compensation for Love, but in a package it might work.

I'd be willing to offer Sully, Lee (salary matching) and the 2018 Brooklyn pick.   Way i see it is this:

1) Sully probably has no future here anyway, and Love is an obvious upgrde

2) Lee wouldn't get playing time, but he seemed OK with that in Golden State while he was on a title contender - and Cleveland could probably use the extra veteran leadership, since the only real proper leader they have right now is Lebron.

3) Brooklyn will suck in 2016 and 2017, but with the massive cap in place and Joe Johnson nearing the end of his deal, there's a good chance they could be competitive again by the 2018 draft. 

It would sadden me to see us waste Lee's nice big expiring contract (I would have liked to see that cap space available in the offseason), but then our chances of signing a FA better than love in this offseason would probably be fairly slim...and if we had him it might help us bring in a third big name. 

So I guess I'd give that a shot...though I don't think I'd offer any more than that.

i see your logic behind this trade. yet, i dont think enough emphasis is placed on cleveland's decision to go all in now, today, this year, immediately. they traded away a future star in wiggins in order to get a star today. now i see trades on cb that neither match wiggins' talent nor addresses the immediacy of cleveland's thinking.

i dont think most trades that involve a future draft pick is very tempting to cleveland. if they trade love it will be because the are getting some better, or similar, to help them in the here and now.

cleveland doesnt want to wait 2-4 years for a player to develop. by then, lebron's ability to lead a team to a championship will be in question.

[KG Living Legend]

having a 5KG gold nugget.

The day Crowder became a consistent three point threat, everything changed.  Trading him for Love right now might not give much (if any) improvement to the team, despite the fact that you'd be paying Love roughly 3x more money.
 


 Great post Crimson Tp. Crowder out of nowhere.

[D Dub]

While I agree with hwangjini that Cleveland is all in for the present, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up letting draft picks hold this up.   Straight up, you could package either Lee & Crowder or Lee & AB for Love.   Either should be enough to satisfy their need for a savvy defensive wing, but after overpaying so hard for Love I could see them demanding BKL picks out of shear principle.

[ScoobyDoo]

Sullinger, Lee, Jerebko and Draft considerations (not Brooklyn's picks)

1.   I think Sullinger might actually be a better fit for Cleveland than Love because he actually plays haalf decent defense and can definitly bang much better with some very big boys down low. Therefore, if you wanted to go big with Mosgov, Sully and LeBron great. If you wanted to go small with Sully, Thompson and LeBron that also works. Love is a real problem defensively for Cleveland.

2.  Also, having the two expiring contracts of Mosgov and David Lee is not insiginificant for Cleveland this off season. This allows Cleveland to unlock itself from a very burdensome (assuming their are chemistry/compatibility issues, which I think are likely), 5 year contract with Love.

3. Jerebko may not be Crowder at this point, but he can play the SF or PF spot, much like Lee and Sully can play the PF and Center spot in the right situations, so it gives Cleveland versatility acorss their front line. Jerebko also works hard on D and can hit threes.

If I'm Cleveland I would take that deal, it's an underrated return for Love that probably makes them much more compettive due to the versatility they gain.

If the game slows to a grind in the playoffs, try guarding Mosgov, Sullinger and LeBron. If they want small ball, go Sullinger, LeBron and Jerebko.

But again, the key selling point for Cleveland, if you assume A) they want to make a five year run with LeBron; and B) Love isn't the best fit, is the Cap they gain by losing Mosgov and Lee.

They could sign some other major player and then sign Sullinger after the fact if needed,wanted. 
   
I'm not a huge Love fan, but if I could get him for that package I "might" do it, with the hope that Stevens system is the perfect fit for him.

[crimson_stallion]

Sullinger, Lee, Jerebko and Draft considerations (not Brooklyn's picks)

Sully would be a good fit there I think and swapping him out for Love cancels out the rebounding loss.  So maybe you start there, but I don't like the idea of losing Crowder.  Lee and Jerebko are throw ins from their standpoint.  You'd probably have to give up one of the 'good' #1's.

Problem is though, they'd have to sign Sully.

That's true. 

Sully has a bad attitude, plays defense well but only when he feels like it, likes to complain on every call.  He'd be a perfect with Lebron in Cleveland!

lol jokes aside though, Sully does replace a lot of what Love gives them (except three point shooting..which was proably loves biggest asset really).  On his own he's obviously no compensation for Love, but in a package it might work.

I'd be willing to offer Sully, Lee (salary matching) and the 2018 Brooklyn pick.   Way i see it is this:

1) Sully probably has no future here anyway, and Love is an obvious upgrde

2) Lee wouldn't get playing time, but he seemed OK with that in Golden State while he was on a title contender - and Cleveland could probably use the extra veteran leadership, since the only real proper leader they have right now is Lebron.

3) Brooklyn will suck in 2016 and 2017, but with the massive cap in place and Joe Johnson nearing the end of his deal, there's a good chance they could be competitive again by the 2018 draft. 

It would sadden me to see us waste Lee's nice big expiring contract (I would have liked to see that cap space available in the offseason), but then our chances of signing a FA better than love in this offseason would probably be fairly slim...and if we had him it might help us bring in a third big name. 

So I guess I'd give that a shot...though I don't think I'd offer any more than that.

i see your logic behind this trade. yet, i dont think enough emphasis is placed on cleveland's decision to go all in now, today, this year, immediately. they traded away a future star in wiggins in order to get a star today. now i see trades on cb that neither match wiggins' talent nor addresses the immediacy of cleveland's thinking.

i dont think most trades that involve a future draft pick is very tempting to cleveland. if they trade love it will be because the are getting some better, or similar, to help them in the here and now.

cleveland doesnt want to wait 2-4 years for a player to develop. by then, lebron's ability to lead a team to a championship will be in question.

I totally understand that, and I'm not saying that this offer is by any means desirable enough to make Cleveland agree to the deal.

I'm just saying that if I am Danny Ainge, that's all a current day Kevin Love is worth to me.

On talent alone Love is worth significantly more, but you need to consider other factors like:

* His 5 year $100M contract (certain liablity)
* His injury history (potential liability)
* His defensive limitations (certain liability, as it impacts who you can play next to him)
* The fact that he's still yet to prove he's capable of carrying a team (potential liability). 

All of these factors bring his value down significantly, to the point where he's net value as an asset is nowhere near as great as his pure talent level.

Is it worth trading a very young and healthy player with huge upside who is on a brilliant contract (Crowder), for a somewhat young and not so healthy player with no upside who is on a massive albatross contract?

Everything has to be looked at in terms of production per dollar, and right now Kevin Love's "production per dollar" value is really very average.  On the other hand Crowder's "production per dollar" value is incredibly high.

This is why I wouldn't trade somebody like Crowder in a deal for Love. 

I'm willing to give up something that I consider quite valuable to me (in this case, the 2018 Nets pick and Lee's $15M expiring contract), but I'm not willing to give up pieces of outstanding value that could potentially form the core of my team.

Hence I offer them Sully, Lee and Brooklyn 2018 pick - take it or leave it.  If they choose to leave it then that's fine.  I don't see Lee as "the piece" anyway, so it doesn't phase me if they say no.  But if I can take a shot at getting him at a bargain, why not.

[crimson_stallion]

The talk of Olynyk becoming a potential dominate player is absurd.
Quality backup at best.

Celtics need a dominate bigman in the paint who can play D and score in the post much like McHale.

If KO is the hangup in any deal to bring back such a player, Ainge should be fired..

1) We do not yet know what Olynyk can be.  He's shown a great deal of promise, and has shown major improvement this year, and he's still very young. I suspect he will be a good starter at the very least, maybe a borderline all star one day.  Not sure he'd have potential to be more than that, but who knows.  He's one of those guys who can put points on the board in a hurry when he's feeling confident, so with the right push he could be a 20 PPG scorer.

2) Kevin Love is not the player you just described.  He's not dominant in the paint (22% of FGA taken inside three feet, and making them at only 52%) and he has limitations defensively.  So I'm not sure who you are describing there, but it's not Kevin Love. 

[crimson_stallion]

If the Cavs do decide to trade Love, I think they'll struggle to get value for him. There's just not enough teams where the risk of putting real assets towards a deal outweighs the upgrade he's going to provide.

Plus there is the simple matter of the contract.

Boston is lucky because we have Lee's $15M expiring contract, which basically becomes pure gold in any scenario that involves a team giving up on a disgruntled (and probably highly paid) star player.

Most teams out there are not nearly so luck, and very few teams have disposable $15M - $20M contracts that they can just throw in to any trade to make things work.  That on it's own eliminates a LOT of teams from going after a guy like Love, Cousins, etc.

Most teams who would want a guy like Love will be teams who are playoff contenders - but most such teams don't have large disposable contracts, which means trading for somebody like Love would mean having to give up some of their own core pieces - which introduces risk of things falling apart if Love doesn't fit in.

Most teams who have cap space and disposable vet contracts are going to be teams who are tanking and/or lottery teams - and those teams probably won't want to go after a guy like Love.

We are in an amazing position because we are a playoff contender that also happens to have lots of draft picks, and a nice juicy disposable contract, that we can auction off to the highest bidder in the hope of strengthening our team for a strong playoff run.  We are in a pretty unique position in that regards, really.

David Lee is a brilliant asset right now.  As long as he is on the team, he gives Boston the potential to make big deals happen.  If the end of the year comes and no deals happen, then we can let him walk and enjoy $15M in extra cap space.  He's like a trade exception, but one that you can use pretty much however you want.

[chambers]

Sullinger, Lee, Jerebko and Draft considerations (not Brooklyn's picks)

Sully would be a good fit there I think and swapping him out for Love cancels out the rebounding loss.  So maybe you start there, but I don't like the idea of losing Crowder.  Lee and Jerebko are throw ins from their standpoint.  You'd probably have to give up one of the 'good' #1's.

Problem is though, they'd have to sign Sully.

That's true. 

Sully has a bad attitude, plays defense well but only when he feels like it, likes to complain on every call.  He'd be a perfect with Lebron in Cleveland!

lol jokes aside though, Sully does replace a lot of what Love gives them (except three point shooting..which was proably loves biggest asset really).  On his own he's obviously no compensation for Love, but in a package it might work.

I'd be willing to offer Sully, Lee (salary matching) and the 2018 Brooklyn pick.   Way i see it is this:

1) Sully probably has no future here anyway, and Love is an obvious upgrde

2) Lee wouldn't get playing time, but he seemed OK with that in Golden State while he was on a title contender - and Cleveland could probably use the extra veteran leadership, since the only real proper leader they have right now is Lebron.

3) Brooklyn will suck in 2016 and 2017, but with the massive cap in place and Joe Johnson nearing the end of his deal, there's a good chance they could be competitive again by the 2018 draft. 

It would sadden me to see us waste Lee's nice big expiring contract (I would have liked to see that cap space available in the offseason), but then our chances of signing a FA better than love in this offseason would probably be fairly slim...and if we had him it might help us bring in a third big name. 

So I guess I'd give that a shot...though I don't think I'd offer any more than that.

i see your logic behind this trade. yet, i dont think enough emphasis is placed on cleveland's decision to go all in now, today, this year, immediately. they traded away a future star in wiggins in order to get a star today. now i see trades on cb that neither match wiggins' talent nor addresses the immediacy of cleveland's thinking.

i dont think most trades that involve a future draft pick is very tempting to cleveland. if they trade love it will be because the are getting some better, or similar, to help them in the here and now.

cleveland doesnt want to wait 2-4 years for a player to develop. by then, lebron's ability to lead a team to a championship will be in question.

Hwang is spot on.
We can make hypothetical trade scenarios where we send them our unwanted scraps and expirings with a potentially nice pick thrown in as the main piece, but the reality is that Cleveland doesn't even pick up the phone for offers like that.

The goal of this franchise right now is to acquire top 20 NBA talent.
Kebin Love has that talent. Jae crowder doesn't.  He's a fantastic player that's easily a starter in the NBA, but he's not kwahi Leonard or Jimmy Butler. He's also not Kevin Love.

Jae Crowder is in the perfect situation right now.
Rebuilding team, no competition for minutes and his three point shot is falling.
Kevin Love is in the opposite scenario right now and it's making his value highly diminished which is the perfect situation that we want to acquire him.

Of course the Jae Crowder for Love debate is a matter of opinion. We all know Danny will offer everything but Crowder or Smart - he'd even offer IT if it came to it.
He'll try to send Bradley, Turner and Lee, but the reality is that Cleveland wants more for a guy that can still be a top 20 NBA player in the right situation and they know he's handicapped in this current situation.

In my opinion if it comes down to the crunch, Danny will send out Crowder for Love because Love is the better player and is the top 20 NBA player he's looking for.  He's also one of the 'cheapest' stars in a long time and he would absolutely thrive in Boston. Locked up long term, only 27 years old and below real value.

I hope we don't have to give up Jae but if we have to then I completely understand.

[LarBrd33]

Sullinger, Lee, Jerebko and Draft considerations (not Brooklyn's picks)

Sully would be a good fit there I think and swapping him out for Love cancels out the rebounding loss.  So maybe you start there, but I don't like the idea of losing Crowder.  Lee and Jerebko are throw ins from their standpoint.  You'd probably have to give up one of the 'good' #1's.

Problem is though, they'd have to sign Sully.

That's true. 

Sully has a bad attitude, plays defense well but only when he feels like it, likes to complain on every call.  He'd be a perfect with Lebron in Cleveland!

lol jokes aside though, Sully does replace a lot of what Love gives them (except three point shooting..which was proably loves biggest asset really).  On his own he's obviously no compensation for Love, but in a package it might work.

I'd be willing to offer Sully, Lee (salary matching) and the 2018 Brooklyn pick.   Way i see it is this:

1) Sully probably has no future here anyway, and Love is an obvious upgrde

2) Lee wouldn't get playing time, but he seemed OK with that in Golden State while he was on a title contender - and Cleveland could probably use the extra veteran leadership, since the only real proper leader they have right now is Lebron.

3) Brooklyn will suck in 2016 and 2017, but with the massive cap in place and Joe Johnson nearing the end of his deal, there's a good chance they could be competitive again by the 2018 draft. 

It would sadden me to see us waste Lee's nice big expiring contract (I would have liked to see that cap space available in the offseason), but then our chances of signing a FA better than love in this offseason would probably be fairly slim...and if we had him it might help us bring in a third big name. 

So I guess I'd give that a shot...though I don't think I'd offer any more than that.

i see your logic behind this trade. yet, i dont think enough emphasis is placed on cleveland's decision to go all in now, today, this year, immediately. they traded away a future star in wiggins in order to get a star today. now i see trades on cb that neither match wiggins' talent nor addresses the immediacy of cleveland's thinking.

i dont think most trades that involve a future draft pick is very tempting to cleveland. if they trade love it will be because the are getting some better, or similar, to help them in the here and now.

cleveland doesnt want to wait 2-4 years for a player to develop. by then, lebron's ability to lead a team to a championship will be in question.

Hwang is spot on.
We can make hypothetical trade scenarios where we send them our unwanted scraps and expirings with a potentially nice pick thrown in as the main piece, but the reality is that Cleveland doesn't even pick up the phone for offers like that.

The goal of this franchise right now is to acquire top 20 NBA talent.
Kebin Love has that talent. Jae crowder doesn't.  He's a fantastic player that's easily a starter in the NBA, but he's not kwahi Leonard or Jimmy Butler. He's also not Kevin Love.

Jae Crowder is in the perfect situation right now.
Rebuilding team, no competition for minutes and his three point shot is falling.
Kevin Love is in the opposite scenario right now and it's making his value highly diminished which is the perfect situation that we want to acquire him.

Of course the Jae Crowder for Love debate is a matter of opinion. We all know Danny will offer everything but Crowder or Smart - he'd even offer IT if it came to it.
He'll try to send Bradley, Turner and Lee, but the reality is that Cleveland wants more for a guy that can still be a top 20 NBA player in the right situation and they know he's handicapped in this current situation.

In my opinion if it comes down to the crunch, Danny will send out Crowder for Love because Love is the better player and is the top 20 NBA player he's looking for.  He's also one of the 'cheapest' stars in a long time and he would absolutely thrive in Boston. Locked up long term, only 27 years old and below real value.

I hope we don't have to give up Jae but if we have to then I completely understand.

I agree entirely.  I think Crowder is playing admirably, but if that's the price for Kevin Love, sign me up.

[ThePaintedArea]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-vertical-podcast-with-woj--clippers-guard-j-j--redick-142520273.html

50:55 mark Woj and Mannix talk about the Celtics.

Mannix: I think it's too early, but Crowder is someone Griffin would salivate over. I'm not saying I wouldn't trade Crowder for Love, but I wouldn't give much more.

 I don't think it's too early - but I would not give up any core players, unless the deal were unrefuseable.   Boston is in the rare position of being able to deal prospects and especially picks, while keeping their developing core intact.

To get Love, better to involve a third team that is rebuilding. Phoenix? Or maybe Cleveland would like Noel.. no, not really, Cavs are in win-now mode.

How about a first-rounder for Bledsoe, talking of Phoenix?