If we had kept Tony Allen...

[Lucky17]

Hypothetical, somewhat unrelated and possibly completely depressing thought:

Even if we wanted to get TA back from Memphis after this year, we might not be able to trade Jeff Green for him.

True. Salaries don't match. Green's QO is already too high.

Well, that's one reason it's hypothetical. (Another is that if Danny proposed this he would get chased out of Boston by an angry mob).

I'm just making the point that we let someone walk, then to fill his absence traded another (more valuable) asset for someone much worse than the person we let walk.

Unless they can surgically implant KG's brain in Green's body over the offseason, this will go down as DA's worst series of decisions.

I don't agree that Jeff Green is "much worse" than Tony Allen.

[Roy H.]

[dang], that quote really hurts my heart.  He wanted to be hear, be a Celtic.

Moving him and Perk changed this team's entire identity.  Just look at what he's done for Memphis' defense off the bench.  It's incredible

Yeah.  Like I mentioned, I never loved Tony much when he was here.  When Danny said "it wasn't about the money", and Tony came out and said he wanted more of the spotlight, I took that to mean that Tony ditched us. 

To hear that he would have gladly signed here for the same contract, and that he truly was a Celtic at heart kind of stings.  I can't be a total hypocrite and fault Danny too much for passing on Tony, but in hindsight, it hurts.  Tony would have been a huge help this season, and he most likely would have kept Perk in green.

Okay, maybe I am missing something, but how exactly would Tony still being here have caused Perk not to be traded? Is Tony the GM, because if he is then couldn't he have just signed himself?

Sorry, Roy, I don't buy that. Perk's demise here had more to do with contract demands, injury history, current injury and effect to his current game, and Danny's opinion that Shaq and Jermaine would be healthy and a better fit for this team than the need for trading a seemingly indispensable player because we so needed a backup at the wing position. Ultimately Danny was wrong about Shaq and JO but hat doesn't mean if Tony was here Danny wouldn't have still pulled off the trade.

And, while at first I liked the trade I have to say it is probably more the reason for a lackluster second half and mediocre playoff showing than by the C's than Tony Allen not being here is.

Much like in last year's playoffs, Tony could have stepped up and defended small forwards in Marquis' absence; Danny wouldn't have been forced to explore trades for backup small forwards, and wouldn't have outsmarted himself with the Perk trade. 

I just don't think that, if we had Tony on the roster, Danny would have been willing to gamble our championship chances on Shaq's and JO's health.  Maybe he would have, but I don't think so.

[pearljammer10]

Tony Allen is a good defender but he wouldnt be able to stop Wade and James...

Last year he stopped both of them and Kobe Bryant...Kobe shot like 14% with Tony on him

Wade averaged 33 points a game against the C's in last year's playoffs. He averaged 12 points in the 4 previous meetings prior to this series. He has raised his game and it's showing. Gotta slow him down to have a chance.

Exactly.

[nickagneta]

[dang], that quote really hurts my heart.  He wanted to be hear, be a Celtic.

Moving him and Perk changed this team's entire identity.  Just look at what he's done for Memphis' defense off the bench.  It's incredible

Yeah.  Like I mentioned, I never loved Tony much when he was here.  When Danny said "it wasn't about the money", and Tony came out and said he wanted more of the spotlight, I took that to mean that Tony ditched us. 

To hear that he would have gladly signed here for the same contract, and that he truly was a Celtic at heart kind of stings.  I can't be a total hypocrite and fault Danny too much for passing on Tony, but in hindsight, it hurts.  Tony would have been a huge help this season, and he most likely would have kept Perk in green.

Okay, maybe I am missing something, but how exactly would Tony still being here have caused Perk not to be traded? Is Tony the GM, because if he is then couldn't he have just signed himself?

Sorry, Roy, I don't buy that. Perk's demise here had more to do with contract demands, injury history, current injury and effect to his current game, and Danny's opinion that Shaq and Jermaine would be healthy and a better fit for this team than the need for trading a seemingly indispensable player because we so needed a backup at the wing position. Ultimately Danny was wrong about Shaq and JO but hat doesn't mean if Tony was here Danny wouldn't have still pulled off the trade.

And, while at first I liked the trade I have to say it is probably more the reason for a lackluster second half and mediocre playoff showing than by the C's than Tony Allen not being here is.

Much like in last year's playoffs, Tony could have stepped up and defended small forwards in Marquis' absence; Danny wouldn't have been forced to explore trades for backup small forwards, and wouldn't have outsmarted himself with the Perk trade. 

I just don't think that, if we had Tony on the roster, Danny would have been willing to gamble our championship chances on Shaq's and JO's health.  Maybe he would have, but I don't think so.

Yeah, I don't see the Perk trade in that vein. I see it more as trading a player that you were going to lose in free agency the next year and getting SOMETHING for him rather than nothing than I see it as Danny HAVING to trade someone for a backup wing player because the team desperately needed one.

Tomato---tomahto I guess but I see Tony and Perk as two completely different scenarios rather than integrated at all because of a need at a bench position.

[Dante]

Now we want tony Back? Strange wanting  now How come? Didnt he go elsewhere as a free agent cause he was not good enough for us to try to keep him?

[Dante]

No team has the necessary players to stop Wade, Bosh and Lebron at the same time. Only themselves can stop themselves having a bad shooting night. Tony would not have made the difference, I realize that. PP cannot guard all three. And remember, our defense style does not put a single player to guard a specific player. Doc has never done it. Thats why we get killed by good 3 point shooters. We play a practically zone defense. We have done it forever. Nobody guards anybody in particular unless the player gets close to our player. That is why there is so much switching. Every Celtic guards every opponent if they have to, but only for a while, and in the near vicinity.
I do not see us stopping The Heat cause we dont have the players to stop them either on an individual basis or as a blanket defense. We hired the right guns back in 2008 to win and the Heat has just done the same to try to win it this year.
The important difference between us and them is that we bought our three hired guns on their way down and Miami bought theirs in their prime. As a result, is it that hard to understand what is happening?   

[Roy H.]

No team has the necessary players to stop Wade, Bosh and Lebron at the same time. Only themselves can stop themselves having a bad shooting night. Tony would not have made the difference, I realize that. PP cannot guard all three. And remember, our defense style does not put a single player to guard a specific player. Doc has never done it. Thats why we get killed by good 3 point shooters. We play a practically zone defense. We have done it forever. Nobody guards anybody in particular unless the player gets close to our player. That is why there is so much switching. Every Celtic guards every opponent if they have to, but only for a while, and in the near vicinity.
I do not see us stopping The Heat cause we dont have the players to stop them either on an individual basis or as a blanket defense. We hired the right guns back in 2008 to win and the Heat has just done the same to try to win it this year.
The important difference between us and them is that we bought our three hired guns on their way down and Miami bought theirs in their prime. As a result, is it that hard to understand what is happening?   

This argument makes it sound like the Heat are unstoppable, and I just don't buy that.

The Celtics have been playing the Heat evenly with Jermaine O'Neal in the game.  That's in large part because he can help cut off some of Lebron's and Wade's penetration.  One of our problems, though, is that BBD can't bring that physical / shot-blocking presence to the middle.  Shaq did when he was healthy, and Perk did when he was here.  If either player was healthy, we'd look a lot better.

It's the same thing on the perimeter with Tony.  Jeff Green simply can't defend Wade or Lebron James.  Last year, Tony showed that he can.  No, he can't shut them down, but he can make them work harder for their points, and he can limit them.  Increased pressure on the perimeter leads to additional turnovers, which leads to transition offense and easy points.  We need that.

People say offense is the problem.  Well, good defense and rebounding leads to offense.  Tony and Perk are two players who would be helping in that regard.

[mrpoundforpound]

No team has the necessary players to stop Wade, Bosh and Lebron at the same time. Only themselves can stop themselves having a bad shooting night. Tony would not have made the difference, I realize that. PP cannot guard all three. And remember, our defense style does not put a single player to guard a specific player. Doc has never done it. Thats why we get killed by good 3 point shooters. We play a practically zone defense. We have done it forever. Nobody guards anybody in particular unless the player gets close to our player. That is why there is so much switching. Every Celtic guards every opponent if they have to, but only for a while, and in the near vicinity.
I do not see us stopping The Heat cause we dont have the players to stop them either on an individual basis or as a blanket defense. We hired the right guns back in 2008 to win and the Heat has just done the same to try to win it this year.
The important difference between us and them is that we bought our three hired guns on their way down and Miami bought theirs in their prime. As a result, is it that hard to understand what is happening?   

This argument makes it sound like the Heat are unstoppable, and I just don't buy that.

The Celtics have been playing the Heat evenly with Jermaine O'Neal in the game.  That's in large part because he can help cut off some of Lebron's and Wade's penetration.  One of our problems, though, is that BBD can't bring that physical / shot-blocking presence to the middle.  Shaq did when he was healthy, and Perk did when he was here.  If either player was healthy, we'd look a lot better.

It's the same thing on the perimeter with Tony.  Jeff Green simply can't defend Wade or Lebron James.  Last year, Tony showed that he can.  No, he can't shut them down, but he can make them work harder for their points, and he can limit them.  Increased pressure on the perimeter leads to additional turnovers, which leads to transition offense and easy points.  We need that.

People say offense is the problem.  Well, good defense and rebounding leads to offense.  Tony and Perk are two players who would be helping in that regard.

Completely agree with this. Anyone who believes that Jeff Green is a better match up against Lebron because of his size clearly hasn't watched the kid play defense. Being a Thunder fan as well as a Celtics fan I was well aware of Jeff Green's limitations on the defensive end, seeing his man drive right by him or drop a J on him with very little resistence night in and night out.

Needless to say it was bittersweet when he got traded, I was happy the thunder got rid of him, but at the same time sad because the Celtics traded Perk when they had a shot at winning the championship. Hopefully OKC makes it to the finals though or this trade will have sucked!

[Jon]

The offense stagnating and the C's throwing easy passes away are probably even bigger reasons why we lost than anything else. 

Might TA have helped a little?  Yes.  But Tony Allen never truly contained either one them.  They both have had huge games against the Celtics in the past and Tony was never here when they were both on the same team. 

I agree that Tony Allen could've potentially helped a little.  However, anyone suggesting that having him here would change the fact that we're down 2-0 is wildly off-base.   

[Potapenko Boxout]

The offense stagnating and the C's throwing easy passes away are probably even bigger reasons why we lost than anything else. 

Might TA have helped a little?  Yes.  But Tony Allen never truly contained either one them.  They both have had huge games against the Celtics in the past and Tony was never here when they were both on the same team. 

I agree that Tony Allen could've potentially helped a little.  However, anyone suggesting that having him here would change the fact that we're down 2-0 is wildly off-base.   

My main objective in starting this thread was to point out the domino effect of sorts that keeping Tony would have had.

If we had kept TA,

1. One of either Marquis/Von wafer would not have been signed
2. No need to trade Perkins for a backup swingman (Jeff Green)
3. Nate/Delonte, one of them would also likely would not have been signed (a reach possibly)
4. Jermaine O Neal comes off the bench, as a result of still having Perk
5. Big Baby does not play 1 lick at Center during the playoffs

I think the combination of these things would have change the dynamic of this team greatly.


However, if its and buts were soup and nuts we'd all have a nice snack. Danny killed Ubuntu, no two ways about it.

[The DarkPassenger]

We can if ourselves to death but the fact is we do not have Tony Allen and probably did not have a chance at retaining him since it wasn't money that was the issue it was the role he was playing. Ainge and Doc couldn't promise him much more than a 7th man off the bench, since the 6th man would have to relieve KG.

I believe that if we lose in this round then Ainge will have to make a real tough decision or decisions in what he does with the roster. I do not see many coming back at all, maybe Jeff Green comes back but I'm not so sure. If I were him I would not want to wait for a starting job if a another team offers me one today.

[LooseCannon]

I have always suspected that one strong reason for Tony Allen wanting to leave was that he was butthurt playing only 5 minutes in Game 7 last year.  Perhaps Ainge and Rivers had determined that Shaq would start over Perkins in the playoffs if both were healthy and thought that Perk would bolt over the perceived slight. 

I still think they guy the Celtics should have tried to sign for the minimum during the offseason was James Singleton.  (Maybe they did....Singleton was reported to have turned down a few teams for minimum contracts in exchange for more money in China.)

[Cman]

Hypothetical, somewhat unrelated and possibly completely depressing thought:

Even if we wanted to get TA back from Memphis after this year, we might not be able to trade Jeff Green for him.

True. Salaries don't match. Green's QO is already too high.

Well, that's one reason it's hypothetical. (Another is that if Danny proposed this he would get chased out of Boston by an angry mob).

I'm just making the point that we let someone walk, then to fill his absence traded another (more valuable) asset for someone much worse than the person we let walk.

Unless they can surgically implant KG's brain in Green's body over the offseason, this will go down as DA's worst series of decisions.

Yeah, but it all depends on how far back you want to rewind the clock, because the further back you go, the more the counterfactual starts to depend on a whole lot of stuff (eg: maybe if we'd resign Tony Allen, he would would have blown out his knee in a pick up game during preseason).

So, if we want to play the "turn back the clock" game, in retrospect, maybe the Celtics should have pulled the trigger on the reported Ray Allen for Caron Butler + Antawn Jamison trade. 

Maybe we could have beat the Lakers in that game 7 in that case?

In the offseason, Cs would be deep at guard and forward positions, wouldn't have had to sign Marquis, wouldn't have had to rely on BBD as much, wouldn't have had to make the trade for Krstic+Green, etc, etc.