Author Topic: The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength  (Read 3351 times)

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The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength
« on: February 25, 2011, 09:48:24 AM »

Offline shiggins

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The Celtics number 1 strength is basically being bigger, badder, and tougher than their opponents.  This team was built on defense, size, and power.

In the beginning of the year, they were just wearing opponents out.  Shaq looked like a beast.  Jermaine looked bad, but was still viable.  He was blocking shots and you were just waiting for his jumper to start falling and really it didnt seem like it wouldnt eventually click.  Semih was contributing.  Baby was banging people around.  If one member was having a rough night, it didnt matter, you would just throw them out there and have them bang away and wear out the opponents front line.  It didnt matter if Shaq had 4 fouls in the first half.  You still had Jermaine, Semih and Baby in there to do the dirty work.  It was almost a positive because it meant he had done that much damage.

The Celts front line was just a relentless juggernaut, continuously banging away at the opponents front line.  Sure Shaq or Jermaine on their own werent better than say Dwight or Al Horford, but the sheer numbers of viable of tough strong big men would just overwhelm you.  Dwight would take a pounding from 4 guys and after a while it wears you down.  I dont think its a coincidence that the Magic have been less successful without Gortat.  Even if he wasnt a talented, front line, blue chip guy, he was a tough SOB and could spell Dwight and knock people around.  I think this fact is being underrated.

This bring us now to Perk.  Admittedly, hes an absolutely brutal offensive player, and this year honestly has looked even worse than previously.  Perk embodies these exact qualities.  Doesnt give up easy buckets.  Makes everybody work for their points.  He brings that swagger to the whole team.  Basketball is not a fantasy league.  There is a time and place for chemistry, toughness, leadership and cohesion.  This is what Perkins brought.  Is there honestly any doubt why Semih was actually a contributor at some point?  He was infused with that Celtic attitude.

Now, this problem would be mitigated if Shaq and Jermaine were healthy.  Thats why I hate this trade so much.  Shaq played great in the beginning of the year, but after that he definitely faded.  In December and January, his points were down about 5 and his rebounds were cut in half.  True he was injured, but thats also part of this equation.  How are you going to count that heavily on Shaq?  When we first signed him, I believe most of us were under the impression hed be a 20 mpg guy at most.  This was working.  Why should we suddenly believe he can give us more?  Hes been hurt this year, hes looked tired at times.  Its unfair to expect much more than he was giving us.  The man will be 39 once the playoffs start and has been injury prone, why should we believe hes going to be healthy throughout what we hopefully should be four playoff series?  Healthy Shaq, yes that would be great.  Current old/fragile Shaq, I'm not so sure.

Now Jermaine.  Hes been banged up all year.  Why should we believe that coming off knee surgery and returning in April he will be able to contribute at all?  He has looked terrible so far.  I would like to attribute that to the injury and lack of reps and pure rustyness.  Sooo, him coming off surgery 3 months later will cure this?  He will be out of shape, even rustier, that much more behind on rotations and defensive and offensive sets.  He never really had time to gel with this team, so why do we believe we can just throw him out there in the middle of the playoffs and have him contribute?

I dont understand why we dumped Semih either.  He was an active 7 foot guy.  If you look, they dont have any of those anymore...Sure he wasnt the next coming of David Robinson, but he played hard, was at least a big guy who could bang for 6 fouls.

Should we bring in Rasheed?  At this point you probably have to.  But whats to make us think he will be any better than last year.  I disagree with many people on his contributions last year.  I thought he was honestly terrible.  He sucked during the reg season, but I didnt really think his playoffs were all that impressive either.  He had a game or two which he was great but overall was fairly mediocre.  6 ppg 3 reb and 41% shooting is nothing to go nuts about.  Also it appeared he got tired at the end of games he was asked to contribute more in.  He clearly seemed out of shape.  Which is embarrassing as a professional athlete, but thats beside the point.  And that is with his playing the whole year, and actually being on this team and practicing.  Whats to make you think he will be in shape after not being on a team?

Which of the buyout candidates will help us?  Troy Murphy?  A career terrible defender who couldnt crack the rotation in New Jersey?  Over Kris Humphries of all people?  Now hes an old guy whose never played defense?  At least he rebounds right? 

Honestly I guess I'd be happy with Dalembert or Pryzbilla?  But who do you take?  Perkins or those two?  Its kind of a no brainer to me...

This trade wouldnt have been nearly as bad if Shaq and Jermaine were healthy and contributing, but where is there any evidence this is even possible?  They are both old and injury prone and injured THIS season.  Not last year, or the year before.  They are hurt NOW.  This is our last opportunity.  This team as constituted was good enough to win the championship this year.  We know this.  They had the best record in the East.  Perkins may have been expendable if we had other options, but you know what?  We dont.  We cant depend on Shaq and Jermaine.  Maybe Danny knew Perk's knee wouldnt hold up.  Dont you think OKC's doctors will check it out?  They dont make the move if Perk is damaged goods.  They are trying to win a championship this year as well.

I really hope there are some other moves in the works, because I dont see how this makes us a better team at all.  You trade your only viable center for a backup neither 3 or 4?  Basically a Marvin Williams?  I dont see it Danny.

Re: The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2011, 09:58:09 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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NEWSFLASH -  We were pretty darn good without Perk earlier this year.

Krstic is better than Erden.   We still have gimps Shaq and Jermaine.  Danny knows about their rehab more than you, I'd wager.  I also think when buyouts happen we will be an attractive destination.

Re: The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2011, 09:58:30 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I agree.  Our biggest strengths were defense, intimidation, and chemistry/cohesion.  This trade weakened all of those areas.  It also weakened us in rebounding, which as we all know was a pretty big part of last season's loss to the Lakers.

The upside is that it made us more athletic off the bench, while hopefully improving the offense somewhat and making us more versatile.


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Re: The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2011, 10:02:18 AM »

Offline shiggins

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NEWSFLASH -  We were pretty darn good without Perk earlier this year.

Krstic is better than Erden.   We still have gimps Shaq and Jermaine.  Danny knows about their rehab more than you, I'd wager.  I also think when buyouts happen we will be an attractive destination.


But that was when Shaq was playing well.  After November Shaq honestly sucked, but you could plug in Jermaine or Baby or whoever.  Now we need to roll the dice and tread water til Shaq and Jermaine are healthy?  Thats going to take time and you will sacrifice wins during that.  If they lose 3 or 4 games, they are all the way down to the 3rd seed...

Also Kristic is brutal defensively, doesnt rebound and stands around shooting jumpers.  This is KG's and Baby's offense...

Re: The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2011, 10:04:05 AM »

Offline rav123

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I guess one of our weaknesses is random periods of offensive stagnation (see numerous examples over the years, including last night at Denver to close the game).

Krstic and Green are both good offensive players, whom we can try to use for points when the Big 3 + Rondo are out of it. So too are Murphy/Powe/Sheed if we get any of them.

Our defense was at a league-leading level without Perk. Didn't somebody (I think it was Zach Lowe) write a piece about how Perkins actually lowered our defensive ratings? If that's, Perk's value to us may only have been in setting screens on the offensive end and guarding low-post superstars on the defensive end.

Re: The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2011, 10:04:47 AM »

Offline vinnie

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The OP makes a great point. Even when Shaq has been playing lately, he has been a mere shadow of what he was the first 20-25 games of the season. I think that is a huge issue. He had no lift and had become a foul machine because he could not move on defense. Part of that probably can be attributed to the injury, but part of it is also because he is old.

Re: The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2011, 10:06:24 AM »

Offline Drucci

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I agree.  Our biggest strengths were defense, intimidation, and chemistry/cohesion.  This trade weakened all of those areas.

I don't know about that. Sure we lost a part of our toughness and a part of our chemistry. But does Perk's departure means the chemistry and the habits between Rondo and the Big 3 will disappear overnight? Of course not. That's overblown in my opinion.

As for the toughness part, Shaq, Rondo, Pierce, Ray and KG are not guys who back down and they are pretty intimidating so I don't know about that "big loss" either.

It also weakened us in rebounding, which as we all know was a pretty big part of last season's loss to the Lakers.

This is my biggest worry along with the integration of the new guys in such a short time.

Re: The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2011, 10:07:14 AM »

Offline Edgar

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Kristic is taller than Perk ( of course C Johnson is too lol)
and we still have 4 roster spots.
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Re: The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2011, 10:11:04 AM »

Offline TBreezy

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I amnot completely sure this trade has made us worse.  On paper yes, but perk hasn't been playing like he has in the past.  I think the big rotations become more flexible and interesting.  I don't think you are hoing to see Nedad versus starting centers once Shaq returns - I bet he holds his own against the backps of the league, and if you pair him with Baby at the four you add that muscle...

I love the thought of KG at the 5 and Jeff Green at the 4, against teams other than orlando.  My hunch is that Jeff Green (who has always been a very intelligent player) adopts to the team defense quickly and effectivley.

The secondary trades are about freeing roster space.  Lets see who fills those spots in before we cry ourselves to sleep.  

I am excited to see what this team will be doing come the end of march.

Re: The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2011, 10:11:07 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I agree.  Our biggest strengths were defense, intimidation, and chemistry/cohesion.  This trade weakened all of those areas.

I don't know about that. Sure we lost a part of our toughness and a part of our chemistry. But does Perk's departure means the chemistry and the habits between Rondo and the Big 3 will disappear overnight? Of course not. That's overblown in my opinion.

As for the toughness part, Shaq, Rondo, Pierce, Ray and KG are not guys who back down and they are pretty intimidating so I don't know about that "big loss" either.


I said weakened, rather than destroyed.  The team didn't lose its identity overnight, but it suffered a blow.


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Re: The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2011, 10:13:32 AM »

Offline TBreezy

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Roy  -

I am Challenging you on that too.  This is and was KG's team.  He sets the tone, perk took queue from him.

I will miss him too.  But he is not the one who set the tone.

Re: The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2011, 10:14:38 AM »

Offline Drucci

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I agree.  Our biggest strengths were defense, intimidation, and chemistry/cohesion.  This trade weakened all of those areas.

I don't know about that. Sure we lost a part of our toughness and a part of our chemistry. But does Perk's departure means the chemistry and the habits between Rondo and the Big 3 will disappear overnight? Of course not. That's overblown in my opinion.

As for the toughness part, Shaq, Rondo, Pierce, Ray and KG are not guys who back down and they are pretty intimidating so I don't know about that "big loss" either.


I said weakened, rather than destroyed.  The team didn't lose its identity overnight, but it suffered a blow.

All right, sorry for the exageration but I meant it hasn't weakened it in such a big way in my opinion, if at all. The chemistry between the Big Four and Shaq was really good if not great at the beginning of the season.

Also I think the fact that Rondo is such a great passer and playmaker will help Green fit in tremendously.

Re: The problem with this trade is it neutralized our main strength
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2011, 10:15:46 AM »

Online Who

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It didn't neutralize it but it did lessen it.