How many players would you take over James.

[Eja117]

Indeed.... I think my basic assertion or point here is that these guys should have had instant success and were expected to win multiple rings and leave no doubt. They were elite guys. Elite guys dominate. They aren't. 

Therefore I question if they are elite.

You made a good point about Malone, Stockton and Barkey at age 25, but I actually think if those guys had played together in this league (just swap out the current little 3 for those guys on the Heat) and I think they'd be crushing a lot of good teams.

Well I mean..what we're arguing is completely subjective. LeBron's track record is pretty unimpeachable that he is both a successful and elite talent. He's done more with less than anyone in the NBA consistently for the last 4 years.

It is boggling why he is now doing so much less with so much more, but think about what you're saying...either you're saying the team that the Heat beat by almost 30 points last night is a heck of a lot better than anyone ever realized, or what I'm saying is true..that they're kind of sitting around in Miami confused and frustrated..but that it will be a temporary state.

Its kinda like if you handed a monkey a handgun and waited. It'll be a while before he figures out where the safety is and how to fire it, but eventually he'll decide how to point and make it go boom.

Indeed this reminds me of when Krusty the Clown read something and then turned to his monkey at a type writer and said "You call this Shakespear?" and the monkey got made and said in monkey language "I think it's amazing I can write anything at all"

My only other counter thought is that I don't think the modern college game is anywhere near as good as it was in Bird's day.  And it may have been a coked up league, but it's a stoned league now

[Eja117]

if it was so predictable why did the Heat pursue this?   Why wasn't Pat Riley like "IIII don't knooowww.  Putting these guys together might be a mistake. I'm not sure this combination can really win"

  Because he now has those three locked up for years to come and he has time to make whatever trades and/or free agent acquisition are necessary to build a contender. How would he be better off if he'd refused to sign those players?

So you think Spolestra isn't on the ho seat because they have years to build a contender? That was the plan? Put these guys together and wait a few years?

[indeedproceed]

Indeed.... I think my basic assertion or point here is that these guys should have had instant success and were expected to win multiple rings and leave no doubt. They were elite guys. Elite guys dominate. They aren't. 

Therefore I question if they are elite.

You made a good point about Malone, Stockton and Barkey at age 25, but I actually think if those guys had played together in this league (just swap out the current little 3 for those guys on the Heat) and I think they'd be crushing a lot of good teams.

Well I mean..what we're arguing is completely subjective. LeBron's track record is pretty unimpeachable that he is both a successful and elite talent. He's done more with less than anyone in the NBA consistently for the last 4 years.

It is boggling why he is now doing so much less with so much more, but think about what you're saying...either you're saying the team that the Heat beat by almost 30 points last night is a heck of a lot better than anyone ever realized, or what I'm saying is true..that they're kind of sitting around in Miami confused and frustrated..but that it will be a temporary state.

Its kinda like if you handed a monkey a handgun and waited. It'll be a while before he figures out where the safety is and how to fire it, but eventually he'll decide how to point and make it go boom.

Indeed this reminds me of when Krusty the Clown read something and then turned to his monkey at a type writer and said "You call this Shakespear?" and the monkey got made and said in monkey language "I think it's amazing I can write anything at all"

My only other counter thought is that I don't think the modern college game is anywhere near as good as it was in Bird's day.  And it may have been a coked up league, but it's a stoned league now

So you're sayin...I won that round?

[Eja117]

But you should be able to throw together elite players and win.  These guys were supposed to be elite.  The world expected instant success. Not the problems they've had. People shouldn't be revisionist about it.   

  This isn't revisionism, it was fairly predictable. There are probably a lot more from me and plenty from others, but here are a few of the things I said over the summer:

  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=39904.msg803038#msg803038

  "It's also worth noting that the games of PP/RA/KG worked well together, while James and Wade are too similar to complement each other on the offensive end."

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=40243.msg809439#msg809439

  "I don't think that it's a lock that the team won't have chemistry issues. It's one thing to say that James and Wade are great players. It's another thing to say that their games complement each other's well. When one of them has the ball on offense the value of the other is significantly diminished. They might  (and probably will) be great together but there's a good possibility the sum will be less than the parts."

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=41922.msg853040#msg853040

  "It's not so much whether there's friction between Wade and James as whether their styles of play work well together. They're both used to having the ball in their hands almost every play, and creating their own offense off of the dribble. If LeBron dominates the ball Wade is much less effective. If Wade dominates the ball LeBron is less effective."

Hey even I made the top ten list of why they might not win...but I'm not an expert and if it was so predictable why did the Heat pursue this?   Why wasn't Pat Riley like "IIII don't knooowww.  Putting these guys together might be a mistake. I'm not sure this combination can really win"

  You seem to have gone from "the world expected instant success, don't try to be revisionist" to "I'm no expert and even I knew they might not win" in the blink of an eye.

I knew it wasn't against the laws of physics for them to lose and said so. I made a pretty desperate list like "They're only an injury away" (never thought it would be Haslem though) and "Doc says nothing good happens after midnight for these guys. I think they'll be having lots of midnights"

But I definitely expected them to be one of the best teams from the get go and am happy I was wrong about that

[Eja117]

Indeed.... I think my basic assertion or point here is that these guys should have had instant success and were expected to win multiple rings and leave no doubt. They were elite guys. Elite guys dominate. They aren't. 

Therefore I question if they are elite.

You made a good point about Malone, Stockton and Barkey at age 25, but I actually think if those guys had played together in this league (just swap out the current little 3 for those guys on the Heat) and I think they'd be crushing a lot of good teams.

Well I mean..what we're arguing is completely subjective. LeBron's track record is pretty unimpeachable that he is both a successful and elite talent. He's done more with less than anyone in the NBA consistently for the last 4 years.

It is boggling why he is now doing so much less with so much more, but think about what you're saying...either you're saying the team that the Heat beat by almost 30 points last night is a heck of a lot better than anyone ever realized, or what I'm saying is true..that they're kind of sitting around in Miami confused and frustrated..but that it will be a temporary state.

Its kinda like if you handed a monkey a handgun and waited. It'll be a while before he figures out where the safety is and how to fire it, but eventually he'll decide how to point and make it go boom.

Indeed this reminds me of when Krusty the Clown read something and then turned to his monkey at a type writer and said "You call this Shakespear?" and the monkey got made and said in monkey language "I think it's amazing I can write anything at all"

My only other counter thought is that I don't think the modern college game is anywhere near as good as it was in Bird's day.  And it may have been a coked up league, but it's a stoned league now

So you're sayin...I won that round?

Probably. And it wasn't even pyrric.  Now let's all watch the Heat suck and continue making excuses.

[indeedproceed]

Probably. And it wasn't even pyrric.  Now let's all watch the Heat suck and continue making excuses.

Yes, I'm down for that. Every Heat loss is a joy for me. At the end of the day I don't think its arguable that this team right now is a disappointment and a surprise. A dissapprise (copyright 2010, IndeedProceed).

But, I also don't think it is arguable that they'll get a heck of a lot better, and that 1-3 they're more talented than anyone in the NBA, and its not even close. That doesn't mean they're better than everyone else, or that they're for sure going to be better than everyone else one day. I might have more hair gel, but I doubt I'll even get the blowback like Pauly D. It takes more than one core ingredient to make a championship meal..if you're getting where I'm going with this.

EDIT: One more!

Its like their gameplan right now is:

Step 1: Sign LeBron and Bosh
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Title!

The Heat still need a lot to click, but making real judgements about how the core fits together longterm or even how the rest of the season will play out at this point is like just reading the introduction to a book and than doing a report on it.

[BballTim]

if it was so predictable why did the Heat pursue this?   Why wasn't Pat Riley like "IIII don't knooowww.  Putting these guys together might be a mistake. I'm not sure this combination can really win"

  Because he now has those three locked up for years to come and he has time to make whatever trades and/or free agent acquisition are necessary to build a contender. How would he be better off if he'd refused to sign those players?

So you think Spolestra isn't on the ho seat because they have years to build a contender? That was the plan? Put these guys together and wait a few years?

  Do you think Spolestra decided who the Heat were going to sign last summer? And what would he say? "I'd rather you don't sign LeBron. We'll struggle without him but at least it won't be seen as my fault when we lose"?

[BballTim]

But you should be able to throw together elite players and win.  These guys were supposed to be elite.  The world expected instant success. Not the problems they've had. People shouldn't be revisionist about it.   

  This isn't revisionism, it was fairly predictable. There are probably a lot more from me and plenty from others, but here are a few of the things I said over the summer:

  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=39904.msg803038#msg803038

  "It's also worth noting that the games of PP/RA/KG worked well together, while James and Wade are too similar to complement each other on the offensive end."

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=40243.msg809439#msg809439

  "I don't think that it's a lock that the team won't have chemistry issues. It's one thing to say that James and Wade are great players. It's another thing to say that their games complement each other's well. When one of them has the ball on offense the value of the other is significantly diminished. They might  (and probably will) be great together but there's a good possibility the sum will be less than the parts."

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=41922.msg853040#msg853040

  "It's not so much whether there's friction between Wade and James as whether their styles of play work well together. They're both used to having the ball in their hands almost every play, and creating their own offense off of the dribble. If LeBron dominates the ball Wade is much less effective. If Wade dominates the ball LeBron is less effective."

Hey even I made the top ten list of why they might not win...but I'm not an expert and if it was so predictable why did the Heat pursue this?   Why wasn't Pat Riley like "IIII don't knooowww.  Putting these guys together might be a mistake. I'm not sure this combination can really win"

  You seem to have gone from "the world expected instant success, don't try to be revisionist" to "I'm no expert and even I knew they might not win" in the blink of an eye.

I knew it wasn't against the laws of physics for them to lose and said so. I made a pretty desperate list like "They're only an injury away" (never thought it would be Haslem though) and "Doc says nothing good happens after midnight for these guys. I think they'll be having lots of midnights"

But I definitely expected them to be one of the best teams from the get go and am happy I was wrong about that

  But posts like the ones I quoted weren't desperate "maybe something will happen and they won't dominate" posts. They discuss how it's likely that the Heat will struggle on offense, and the Heat are struggling for the reasons listed.

[Witch-King]

The Celtics' starting 5, Kobe, Chris Paul and D. Wade.

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I wonder whether Spoelstra is keeping notes for a tell-all book about this season...