Author Topic: Summer League Discussion Thread  (Read 18265 times)

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Re: Summer League Discussion Thread
« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2010, 05:33:14 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I'm at the office...couldn't watch.  But how did Erden look today?  It appears he was the invisible man on the boards...
Disoriented. He doesn't seem to go after rebounds hard in 90% of the time, and is getting pushed off of position.

He had a couple of nice passes, but as a whole his summer league has been an up and down affair. If he ends up staying on the season roster, he's not getting off the pine this season.
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Re: Summer League Discussion Thread
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2010, 08:47:59 PM »

Offline Andy Jick

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I'm at the office...couldn't watch.  But how did Erden look today?  It appears he was the invisible man on the boards...
Disoriented. He doesn't seem to go after rebounds hard in 90% of the time, and is getting pushed off of position.

He had a couple of nice passes, but as a whole his summer league has been an up and down affair. If he ends up staying on the season roster, he's not getting off the pine this season.

Thanks (TP!)...  Apparently that jet lag can be rough...
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Re: Summer League Discussion Thread
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2010, 08:53:29 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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Caroll has sweet shot and knows how to score; but was totally abused on defensive end. Real matador.

Carroll absolutely collapsed under the Pacers' pressure in the 4th.
Back to Europe for him, mostly likely. 

Re: Summer League Discussion Thread
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2010, 08:56:42 PM »

Offline lon3lytoaster

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Caroll has sweet shot and knows how to score; but was totally abused on defensive end. Real matador.

Carroll absolutely collapsed under the Pacers' pressure in the 4th.
Back to Europe for him, mostly likely. 

I'd imagine so. He's getting his scoring numbers but can't do much else at all. He seems to like to dominate the ball, too.

Re: Summer League Discussion Thread
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2010, 01:55:15 PM »

Offline Eeyore III

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Now that all our summer league games are over, and having read all the preceding posts, I thought I'd try to resurrect this thread.  My thoughts:

Lafayette stinks.  I disagree with everyone about Lafayette. I thought he played selfish, me-first ball, which totally screwed the team concept, and prevented a decent assessment of the bigs.  Lafayette failed repeatedly to hit an open big on the pick and roll.  He almost never ran progressions to the point where the shooter waiting on the weak side got the ball, which left usually Gaffney standing there waiting perpetually.  He turned the ball over a ton.  If I'm DA, that was Lafayette's swan song on the Cs.

Harangody rules. What more could anyone possibly ask?  He really was the proverbial poor man's Larry Bird.  He can score in numerous ways, from almost everywhere on the floor.  He rebounds great for his size, and gets tons of out-of-area rebounds.  He sees the floor like a PG.  He is going to make 29 GMs look awfully  stupid.  He has some physical limitations, true, but on the second unit where he'll be playing (20+ minutes a game), none of that will matter.  But can he play the 3?  We still don't know, but I'm not betting against Harangody ever again!

The bigs deserve a longer look.  Given Lafayette's selfish play, it is impossible to tell whether the bigs are promising or not.  I personally liked what I saw from Erden: he's big and mobile, and has surprisingly soft hands/touch on his shot.  He's where a project big is, at the start of the project?--I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  The best of the big bunch.

I liked Parakhouski too.  Very big, muscles like Atlas.  Soft hands, soft shot.  I'd love to see him on the pick and roll with a decent PG--he was in position many times, but Oliver "Get Mine" Lafayette failed to deliver the ball, usually driving into a crowd himself and turning the ball over.  I am disappointed to see Art's not on anyone's Vegas team; I thought he might be a late second-round pick.

Intriguing players.  We only saw a bit of Janney, but he looked good last night for Phoenix; I like what I see so far.  I also liked Sims; not sure if he's on a Vegas team or not. And I am not prepared to rule out the possibility that Gaffney might not be a "run with Rondo" kind of guy.  But he doesn't shine as a floor-spacer on a team whose PG never runs the offense to the point where he gets the ball.

 
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Re: Summer League Discussion Thread
« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2010, 02:13:37 PM »

Offline wiley

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Now that all our summer league games are over, and having read all the preceding posts, I thought I'd try to resurrect this thread.  My thoughts:

Lafayette stinks.  I disagree with everyone about Lafayette. I thought he played selfish, me-first ball, which totally screwed the team concept, and prevented a decent assessment of the bigs.  Lafayette failed repeatedly to hit an open big on the pick and roll.  He almost never ran progressions to the point where the shooter waiting on the weak side got the ball, which left usually Gaffney standing there waiting perpetually.  He turned the ball over a ton.  If I'm DA, that was Lafayette's swan song on the Cs.

Harangody rules. What more could anyone possibly ask?  He really was the proverbial poor man's Larry Bird.  He can score in numerous ways, from almost everywhere on the floor.  He rebounds great for his size, and gets tons of out-of-area rebounds.  He sees the floor like a PG.  He is going to make 29 GMs look awfully  stupid.  He has some physical limitations, true, but on the second unit where he'll be playing (20+ minutes a game), none of that will matter.  But can he play the 3?  We still don't know, but I'm not betting against Harangody ever again!

The bigs deserve a longer look.  Given Lafayette's selfish play, it is impossible to tell whether the bigs are promising or not.  I personally liked what I saw from Erden: he's big and mobile, and has surprisingly soft hands/touch on his shot.  He's where a project big is, at the start of the project?--I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  The best of the big bunch.

I liked Parakhouski too.  Very big, muscles like Atlas.  Soft hands, soft shot.  I'd love to see him on the pick and roll with a decent PG--he was in position many times, but Oliver "Get Mine" Lafayette failed to deliver the ball, usually driving into a crowd himself and turning the ball over.  I am disappointed to see Art's not on anyone's Vegas team; I thought he might be a late second-round pick.

Intriguing players.  We only saw a bit of Janney, but he looked good last night for Phoenix; I like what I see so far.  I also liked Sims; not sure if he's on a Vegas team or not. And I am not prepared to rule out the possibility that Gaffney might not be a "run with Rondo" kind of guy.  But he doesn't shine as a floor-spacer on a team whose PG never runs the offense to the point where he gets the ball.

 

Thanks Eyesore!  I'm wondering if you saw any summer leaguers from other teams who stood out but won't make their team due that team being stocked at that player's particular position......in other words, a surprisingly good summer leaguer who still won't make his team?

And or possible good Vegas players owned by no one.....?

Re: Summer League Discussion Thread
« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2010, 03:41:16 PM »

Offline Andy Jick

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Now that all our summer league games are over, and having read all the preceding posts, I thought I'd try to resurrect this thread.  My thoughts:

Lafayette stinks.  I disagree with everyone about Lafayette. I thought he played selfish, me-first ball, which totally screwed the team concept, and prevented a decent assessment of the bigs.  Lafayette failed repeatedly to hit an open big on the pick and roll.  He almost never ran progressions to the point where the shooter waiting on the weak side got the ball, which left usually Gaffney standing there waiting perpetually.  He turned the ball over a ton.  If I'm DA, that was Lafayette's swan song on the Cs.

Harangody rules. What more could anyone possibly ask?  He really was the proverbial poor man's Larry Bird.  He can score in numerous ways, from almost everywhere on the floor.  He rebounds great for his size, and gets tons of out-of-area rebounds.  He sees the floor like a PG.  He is going to make 29 GMs look awfully  stupid.  He has some physical limitations, true, but on the second unit where he'll be playing (20+ minutes a game), none of that will matter.  But can he play the 3?  We still don't know, but I'm not betting against Harangody ever again!

The bigs deserve a longer look.  Given Lafayette's selfish play, it is impossible to tell whether the bigs are promising or not.  I personally liked what I saw from Erden: he's big and mobile, and has surprisingly soft hands/touch on his shot.  He's where a project big is, at the start of the project?--I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  The best of the big bunch.

I liked Parakhouski too.  Very big, muscles like Atlas.  Soft hands, soft shot.  I'd love to see him on the pick and roll with a decent PG--he was in position many times, but Oliver "Get Mine" Lafayette failed to deliver the ball, usually driving into a crowd himself and turning the ball over.  I am disappointed to see Art's not on anyone's Vegas team; I thought he might be a late second-round pick.

Intriguing players.  We only saw a bit of Janney, but he looked good last night for Phoenix; I like what I see so far.  I also liked Sims; not sure if he's on a Vegas team or not. And I am not prepared to rule out the possibility that Gaffney might not be a "run with Rondo" kind of guy.  But he doesn't shine as a floor-spacer on a team whose PG never runs the offense to the point where he gets the ball.

 

Nice review!  TP.  I agree with your thoughts, especially on Lafayette.  I'd bring back Nate (or Eddie House, if Nate can't get worked out) and wouldn't even invite Lafayette to camp. 

Erden deserves a look and should be a nice 12th man.  Harangody can make a 4-6 minute contribution to the real team this season.
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Re: Summer League Discussion Thread
« Reply #82 on: July 10, 2010, 04:22:01 PM »

Offline bballee

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Eeyore, I thought you nailed it!  I only disagree with your tepid response to Janning.  The second and third times I watched the games I began to see more and more little things he did well.  Anyway here is my writeup from last Wednesday:

Keepers?

While you always have to take Summer League production with a raised eyebrow, there have been some promising signs with this years group.  While they lost the early leads, and the games, to the Thunder and Sixers, these teams sported 5-7 draft picks each, some quite high.  Most of the opposing starters logged significant minutes in the league last year.  The Green counter with exactly two drafted players, and those in the last 8 picks made, but already exhibit some of the trademark signs of the Celtics—help defense, ball movement, unselfish passes, and smart play.  These are good signs in general and, in my opinion, a surprising number of the players look competitive to make the squad.  Enough so that I would offer make-good contracts to half a dozen.

From the roster:
Jaycee Carroll G, 6-2, 180, Utah State
Semih Erden C, 7-0, 240, Turkey
Tony Gaffney F, 6-8, 215, UMass
Rodney Green G, 6-5, 190, La Salle
Luke Harangody F, 6-8, 255, Notre Dame
Matt Janning G, 6-4, 198, Northeastern
Vyacheslav Kravstov C, 7-0, 270, Ukraine
Oliver Lafayette G, 6-2, 190, Houston
Art Parakhouski C, 6-11, 260, Radford
DeShawn Sims F, 6-8, 225, Michigan
Ryan Thompson G, 6-6, 220, Rider
Ryan Whitman F, 6-7, 215, Cornell

Contrary to the opinions of many bloggers who panned Erden and Gaffney, I have liked their play—more and more each passing day.  These two are already signed as is Oliver Lafayette although at least Oliver and Tony have non-guaranteed contracts.  On the other hand many bloggers loved Lafayette who has speed, a good handle, and seems to shoot pretty well—but hasn’t a clue of how to run an offense, constantly dribbles and passes into trouble, and does nothing to enable his teammates.  We have no idea of how well complementary players can contribute because they were basically shut out of the action.  This is especially applicable to Gaffney since he is not a one-on-one player.   He covered some tough offensive threats and rather well I thought.  His shot is horribly flat but I can see him as a much longer Tony Allen with at least as good a jumper and dangerous with off-the-ball movement and on the break.  I think this spider man may be just the ticket to stifle some of the potent swing men in the league.

Harangody continues to score and haul in rebounds in spite of lack of height and provides the hardnosed lunch pail attitude any team can use.  To these I would add Sims who has a lively body and if he can cover SF’s could be the power three Danny has long sought.  He hasn’t gotten as much court time as others but has made use of it, perhaps too much since he more than any other has been a get-pass/shoot-ball player.  At least he shot well as the week wore on and has a good release and arc.  My pleasant surprises have been Janning and Parakhouski.  Janning has a very good handle and beautiful shot.  He would have difficulty staying in front of quick point guards but might do just fine against backups.  Whether at the 1 or 2 his outside shot would demand respect opening up the court for our other scorers.  He actually had a much smaller percentage of his passes deflected than either of the “point guards” or Carroll who played some point but seldom made a productive pass.  Parakhouski seems a magnet for rebounds and I would welcome the opportunity for Clifford Ray to work on the big man skills of both he and Erden.  As for Erden he looked both jet-lagged and rusty Monday but I like his energy.  The rap on him is uneven focus but I thought he hustled and battled well if awkwardly.  Often when I backed up the recording to see who was second or third man getting down court on a turnover, it proved to be this seven-footer who was the cavalry coming to the rescue.  He showed on the pick and roll, and recovered.  He helped from the weak side.  Considering he had exactly one practice, almost no command of the English language, and was a late arrival, I thought he showed excellent court awareness and understanding of the game.

As for the rest. Carroll is certainly unafraid to shoot but seems to lack the handle to be a primary ball handler, and seems to have had trouble adapting to the increased size and speed at this level.  Rodney Green has a good handle for a large guard and is an aggressive driver.  Unfortunately he displays a lack of recognition between good and bad opportunities and is too often out of control.  He seems to lack the shooting eye to play the 2 and the judgment to play the 1.  The good news is that Kravstov has 6 fouls, doesn’t mind using them, and usually levies a toll on the party invading his lane.  The bad news is that those 6 fouls will only keep him on the court for about 5 minutes and he seems to lack any offense at all although with the pathetic point guard play it was hard to tell.  As for Thompson and Whitman, neither seems to have the physical tools, defensive mobility, or the offensive game to make the jump to the next level.

So those are my conclusions after three games of summer play.  Come to think of it if Danny has found 6 players (with the highest draft pick being #52) worthy of competing for a roster slot, that is actually pretty impressive.  I hope to see Erden, Parakhouski, Gaffney, Harangody, Sims, and Janning playing in green in October.

Re: Summer League Discussion Thread
« Reply #83 on: July 10, 2010, 04:27:18 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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Eeyore, I also agreed with every point you made.  TP.  Well thought out and well written, TP.
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Re: Summer League Discussion Thread
« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2010, 04:45:23 PM »

Offline jr_3421

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Now that all our summer league games are over, and having read all the preceding posts, I thought I'd try to resurrect this thread.  My thoughts:

Lafayette stinks.  I disagree with everyone about Lafayette. I thought he played selfish, me-first ball, which totally screwed the team concept, and prevented a decent assessment of the bigs.  Lafayette failed repeatedly to hit an open big on the pick and roll.  He almost never ran progressions to the point where the shooter waiting on the weak side got the ball, which left usually Gaffney standing there waiting perpetually.  He turned the ball over a ton.  If I'm DA, that was Lafayette's swan song on the Cs.

Harangody rules. What more could anyone possibly ask?  He really was the proverbial poor man's Larry Bird.  He can score in numerous ways, from almost everywhere on the floor.  He rebounds great for his size, and gets tons of out-of-area rebounds.  He sees the floor like a PG.  He is going to make 29 GMs look awfully  stupid.  He has some physical limitations, true, but on the second unit where he'll be playing (20+ minutes a game), none of that will matter.  But can he play the 3?  We still don't know, but I'm not betting against Harangody ever again!

The bigs deserve a longer look.  Given Lafayette's selfish play, it is impossible to tell whether the bigs are promising or not.  I personally liked what I saw from Erden: he's big and mobile, and has surprisingly soft hands/touch on his shot.  He's where a project big is, at the start of the project?--I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  The best of the big bunch.

I liked Parakhouski too.  Very big, muscles like Atlas.  Soft hands, soft shot.  I'd love to see him on the pick and roll with a decent PG--he was in position many times, but Oliver "Get Mine" Lafayette failed to deliver the ball, usually driving into a crowd himself and turning the ball over.  I am disappointed to see Art's not on anyone's Vegas team; I thought he might be a late second-round pick.

Intriguing players.  We only saw a bit of Janney, but he looked good last night for Phoenix; I like what I see so far.  I also liked Sims; not sure if he's on a Vegas team or not. And I am not prepared to rule out the possibility that Gaffney might not be a "run with Rondo" kind of guy.  But he doesn't shine as a floor-spacer on a team whose PG never runs the offense to the point where he gets the ball.

 

Good analysis, but I disgree with a few points.

1. Lafayette did not stink, he was great in spurts but overall average most of the time. I think the lack of ball handlers and players who could create their own shot factored into this.

2. I didn't come away really impressed with Parakhouski. His rebounding skills looked above average at best and other than that he didn't have an impact on the game.

Other points:

Most intriguing players to me were Janning and Kravstov. Janning was our best player IMO. He was more athletic than expected and played solid defense. He also ran the point very nicely. I said this in another forum, but I think Danny should sign Kravstov and stash him in Europe for a few years to develop. He has a lot of athleticism and toughness and I would love to see him after a few more years of experience.

Sims looked good offensively but I still got the feeling he was soft.

People were praising Gaffney for the defensive work he did, but I thought Thompson was equally impressive if not more. He also was very effective getting to the foul line and knocked down the open jumper, unlike Gaffney.
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Re: Summer League Discussion Thread
« Reply #85 on: July 10, 2010, 06:07:10 PM »

Offline celticpride07

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Gerald Green is playing on the Lakers summer league team on nba tv right now....what a joke...isn't there a limit of how many times you can play in summer league?
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Re: Summer League Discussion Thread
« Reply #86 on: July 10, 2010, 07:15:13 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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Eeyore, I thought you nailed it!  I only disagree with your tepid response to Janning.  The second and third times I watched the games I began to see more and more little things he did well.  Anyway here is my writeup from last Wednesday:

Keepers?

While you always have to take Summer League production with a raised eyebrow, there have been some promising signs with this years group.  While they lost the early leads, and the games, to the Thunder and Sixers, these teams sported 5-7 draft picks each, some quite high.  Most of the opposing starters logged significant minutes in the league last year.  The Green counter with exactly two drafted players, and those in the last 8 picks made, but already exhibit some of the trademark signs of the Celtics—help defense, ball movement, unselfish passes, and smart play.  These are good signs in general and, in my opinion, a surprising number of the players look competitive to make the squad.  Enough so that I would offer make-good contracts to half a dozen.

From the roster:
Jaycee Carroll G, 6-2, 180, Utah State
Semih Erden C, 7-0, 240, Turkey
Tony Gaffney F, 6-8, 215, UMass
Rodney Green G, 6-5, 190, La Salle
Luke Harangody F, 6-8, 255, Notre Dame
Matt Janning G, 6-4, 198, Northeastern
Vyacheslav Kravstov C, 7-0, 270, Ukraine
Oliver Lafayette G, 6-2, 190, Houston
Art Parakhouski C, 6-11, 260, Radford
DeShawn Sims F, 6-8, 225, Michigan
Ryan Thompson G, 6-6, 220, Rider
Ryan Whitman F, 6-7, 215, Cornell

Contrary to the opinions of many bloggers who panned Erden and Gaffney, I have liked their play—more and more each passing day.  These two are already signed as is Oliver Lafayette although at least Oliver and Tony have non-guaranteed contracts.  On the other hand many bloggers loved Lafayette who has speed, a good handle, and seems to shoot pretty well—but hasn’t a clue of how to run an offense, constantly dribbles and passes into trouble, and does nothing to enable his teammates.  We have no idea of how well complementary players can contribute because they were basically shut out of the action.  This is especially applicable to Gaffney since he is not a one-on-one player.   He covered some tough offensive threats and rather well I thought.  His shot is horribly flat but I can see him as a much longer Tony Allen with at least as good a jumper and dangerous with off-the-ball movement and on the break.  I think this spider man may be just the ticket to stifle some of the potent swing men in the league.

Harangody continues to score and haul in rebounds in spite of lack of height and provides the hardnosed lunch pail attitude any team can use.  To these I would add Sims who has a lively body and if he can cover SF’s could be the power three Danny has long sought.  He hasn’t gotten as much court time as others but has made use of it, perhaps too much since he more than any other has been a get-pass/shoot-ball player.  At least he shot well as the week wore on and has a good release and arc.  My pleasant surprises have been Janning and Parakhouski.  Janning has a very good handle and beautiful shot.  He would have difficulty staying in front of quick point guards but might do just fine against backups.  Whether at the 1 or 2 his outside shot would demand respect opening up the court for our other scorers.  He actually had a much smaller percentage of his passes deflected than either of the “point guards” or Carroll who played some point but seldom made a productive pass.  Parakhouski seems a magnet for rebounds and I would welcome the opportunity for Clifford Ray to work on the big man skills of both he and Erden.  As for Erden he looked both jet-lagged and rusty Monday but I like his energy.  The rap on him is uneven focus but I thought he hustled and battled well if awkwardly.  Often when I backed up the recording to see who was second or third man getting down court on a turnover, it proved to be this seven-footer who was the cavalry coming to the rescue.  He showed on the pick and roll, and recovered.  He helped from the weak side.  Considering he had exactly one practice, almost no command of the English language, and was a late arrival, I thought he showed excellent court awareness and understanding of the game.

As for the rest. Carroll is certainly unafraid to shoot but seems to lack the handle to be a primary ball handler, and seems to have had trouble adapting to the increased size and speed at this level.  Rodney Green has a good handle for a large guard and is an aggressive driver.  Unfortunately he displays a lack of recognition between good and bad opportunities and is too often out of control.  He seems to lack the shooting eye to play the 2 and the judgment to play the 1.  The good news is that Kravstov has 6 fouls, doesn’t mind using them, and usually levies a toll on the party invading his lane.  The bad news is that those 6 fouls will only keep him on the court for about 5 minutes and he seems to lack any offense at all although with the pathetic point guard play it was hard to tell.  As for Thompson and Whitman, neither seems to have the physical tools, defensive mobility, or the offensive game to make the jump to the next level.

So those are my conclusions after three games of summer play.  Come to think of it if Danny has found 6 players (with the highest draft pick being #52) worthy of competing for a roster slot, that is actually pretty impressive.  I hope to see Erden, Parakhouski, Gaffney, Harangody, Sims, and Janning playing in green in October.

Good write-up bballee.  Also, nice work from Eeyore.

I only watched two games all week.  Understanding the limitations of Summer League play is very important when evaluating players.  It is so easy to fall into the trap of being impressed with a "shoot-first ask questions later" player like Lafayette.  Heck I even did myself early in the first game.  What's important to keep in mind is that all these guys are fighting for a big league job and for many of them it could be their only chance.  This puts a lot of pressure on them to do something impressive when they get the ball.  That destroys team play.  They also are not going to go out and play lockdown D since it doesn't show up in the box score.  In any case, TEAM defense, i.e., switching and help-side defesne, are practically non-existent.  They are thrown together with little coaching or team concept.  In this respect, I think the C's squad had a little more semblance of a team than a few of their opponents.

All that said, we have no choice but to make judgements on individual players because this is the reason for being here.  Harangody, to me, showed some promise.  He reminds me of a cross between Ryan Gomes and Matt Harpring.  I see him as potentially carving out a niche for himself as a "glue guy" who won't make big mistakes and is willing to do a lot of little things.  Beyond that, he needs minutes and the only way that will happen is in the D-league.  I just can't imagine Doc taking a chance on a rookie in the playoffs and likely not much during the season either, just not Doc's way.  The other guy that was somewhat intriguing was Tony Gaffney.  He's got extremely long arms and is athletic, but with no offensive game.  I compare him to Dan Gadzuric, but a little smaller in stature.