I just do not get it.....Historical significance of a C's win (Kobe Rant)

[Fafnir]

To me, no matter what Kobe does here, he's behind both Michael (overall) and Magic (with the Lakers).  Kobe has four rings, sure, but only one of them were with a team that was "his".  The 2000-era Lakers were dominated by Shaq.

Plus, Kobe's performance in the Finals just hasn't been that good:

2000 NBA Finals

Shaq- 38 PPG, 17 RPG, 2.5 APG, 2.7 BPG, 61% FG 96/157----6 games
Kobe-16 PPG, 5 RPG, 4 APG, 1.4 BPG, 36% FG%, 33/90----5 games

MVP = Shaq.  

2001 NBA Finals

Shaq- 33 PPG, 16 RPG, 5 APG, 3.5 BPG, 63/110 57% FG-----5 games
Kobe- 24 PPG, 8 RPG, 6 APG, 1.4 BPG, 44/106 41% FG------5 games

MVP = Shaq.

2002 NBA Finals

Shaq- 37 PPG, 12.25 RPG, 4 APG, 2.75 BPG, 50/84 60% FG----4 games
Kobe-26 PPG, 5.75 RPG, 5 APG, .75 BPG, 36/70 51% FG-------4 games

MVP = Shaq again.  

Total average stats for 3 championships (15 games)=

Shaq=36 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.7 APG, 3 BPG, 209/351 60% FG
Kobe=20 PPG, 6 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1 BPG, 113/266 42% FG

2004 NBA finals 5 games loss

Shaq= 27 PPG, 11 RPG, 2 APG, .6 BPG, 53/84 63% FG
Kobe=22 PPG, 3 RPG, 4 APG, .6 BPG, 43/113 38% FG

2008 NBA finals 6 games loss
Kobe= 25 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 5 APG, .16 BPG, 53/131 40% FG

2009 NBA finals 5 games win
Kobe= 32 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 7.4 AGP, 58/135, 42% FG

Those are good stats, but they're certainly not other-worldly.

Another link, for the playoffs overall Kobe/KG/Pierce are all about the same level.

Magic is a step above them all, at least as far as win score.

[goz421]

Revenge or not one thing that is still in the minds of LA is Boston man handled them.  Confidence is key, more so then revenge.

Second The Lakers are stagnant at times when they stand around and watch Kobe.  Even Jordan got others into it.

[twinbree]

Yeah I don't know about the whole will to win thing. It's an intangible thing and there's no way to tell who wants it the most. Especially with Kobe whose vaunted will to win I actually question. Because a player who wants to win but only as the top dog IMO cannot want to win nearly as much as the players who are willing to sacrifice and do whatever it takes to win.

Also don't get the whole 5 rings thing. # of rings should be a tie-breaker when players are evenly matched not a determinant of who is better. Besides Shaq was clearly in the driver's seat for the 1st 3 and a good case can be made for Gasol being equally valuable in last year's run.

[FatKidsDad]

3) Getting #5 puts Kobe above Shaq and Duncan

Using that logic Scal is better than LeBron

[Mr October]

As far as will to win goes, I give the edge to the Celtics.

The Lakers had crazy hunger a year ago. Then they got their title. Who on that team will still run through walls for a title? Kobe, Fisher and Artest. Thats it.

The Celtics have been dying to get back to the finals, especially after last season's results. And who's going to run through walls on the Celtics? Garnett, Pierce, Allen, Rondo, Perkins, Davis, Wallace, Allen, Robinson. Pretty much the whole team.

1,2,3... Ubuntu!

[guava_wrench]

3) Getting #5 puts Kobe above Shaq and Duncan

Using that logic Scal is better than LeBron

See Twinbree's tiebreaker comment.

When we talk about Russell's greatness, it always comes back to rings. What is assumed in that discussion is that he was a great player and the main guy on his team. Scal isn't even in the discussion of greatest players.

[FatKidsDad]

3) Getting #5 puts Kobe above Shaq and Duncan

Using that logic Scal is better than LeBron

See Twinbree's tiebreaker comment.

When we talk about Russell's greatness, it always comes back to rings. What is assumed in that discussion is that he was a great player and the main guy on his team. Scal isn't even in the discussion of greatest players.

I agree with Twinbree's comment, and yours.

I just don't think that Bynum4MVP's comment holds water.

[slamtheking]

3) Getting #5 puts Kobe above Shaq and Duncan

Using that logic Scal is better than LeBron

See Twinbree's tiebreaker comment.

When we talk about Russell's greatness, it always comes back to rings. What is assumed in that discussion is that he was a great player and the main guy on his team. Scal isn't even in the discussion of greatest players.

I agree with Twinbree's comment, and yours.

I just don't think that Bynum4MVP's comment holds water.

but your statement using that same measuring stick to say Scal was better than Bron put a big smile on my face.  TP for you!

[Bynum4MVP]

3) Getting #5 puts Kobe above Shaq and Duncan

Using that logic Scal is better than LeBron

See Twinbree's tiebreaker comment.

When we talk about Russell's greatness, it always comes back to rings. What is assumed in that discussion is that he was a great player and the main guy on his team. Scal isn't even in the discussion of greatest players.

I agree with Twinbree's comment, and yours.

I just don't think that Bynum4MVP's comment holds water.

It's common to say # of rings don't matter.  Horry would be greater then Jordan, etc, etc.

Difference is you have to at least have a Finals MVP.  All the greats have had a Finals MVP outside of Russell; but they've named it after him now.

So Horry, Scal, Fisher, Adam Morrison, Sasha Vujacic, Leon Powe, James Posey don't qualify.  If Pau Gasol someday gets a Finals MVP, sure we can start debating it.

If Shaq made his free throws, he could claim he didn't need Kobe.  But Shaq's poor free throws made Kobe the man in 4th quarters during their 3 peat.  Shaq needed Kobe in the 4th quarter just as much as Kobe needed Shaq in the first 3 quarters.

Guys like Lebron, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley will always be behind guys like Kobe and Shaq who actually have rings to go with their Finals MVP.  

But you all don't have to take my word for it, I've already seen your boy Bill Simmons putting Kobe in Magic's company and debating Duncan's #7 All Time spot if he gets #5 over the Celtics.

You'll never see (Celtics fan) Bill Simmons trying to drop Kobe on his All time list just because Robert Horry has 8 rings.  He knows that you have to qualify the ring of a guy who has never sniffed a Finals MVP.

Rings matter.