Where are we with the "second apron"?

[jordb2k5]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all possible

No, where we end up this season doesn't make a difference regarding next year. 

As a practical matter we're going to be over the second apron pretty much no matter what, so we'll be hit with those penalties anyway.  But, that will be due to our 2025 cap sheet, rather than 2024.

Haha that confuses me just a little more. So when will these restrictions on trades kick in for us? Assuming we stay over this year. Why does the 25 sheet matter more than the 23-24?

Appreciate your help on this I’m trying to learn!

They set these new penalties to only take effect after this season, except for the loss of access to the taxpayer MLE which is $5m, which takes effect this season. So from the point of view of getting penalized, the 2025 cap sheet matters more than this year, because we will actually incur all the penalties for going above the 2nd apron next year.

They're basically trying to give teams who want to stay under the 2nd apron a year to get their affairs in order.

Now I’m more confused because it sounds like you’re saying what I’ve thought all along. If we end up over the apron this season then the 24-25 season the trade restrictions are in place.

[BitterJim]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all possible

No, where we end up this season doesn't make a difference regarding next year. 

As a practical matter we're going to be over the second apron pretty much no matter what, so we'll be hit with those penalties anyway.  But, that will be due to our 2025 cap sheet, rather than 2024.

Haha that confuses me just a little more. So when will these restrictions on trades kick in for us? Assuming we stay over this year. Why does the 25 sheet matter more than the 23-24?

Appreciate your help on this I’m trying to learn!

They set these new penalties to only take effect after this season, except for the loss of access to the taxpayer MLE which is $5m, which takes effect this season. So from the point of view of getting penalized, the 2025 cap sheet matters more than this year, because we will actually incur all the penalties for going above the 2nd apron next year.

They're basically trying to give teams who want to stay under the 2nd apron a year to get their affairs in order.

Now I’m more confused because it sounds like you’re saying what I’ve thought all along. If we end up over the apron this season then the 24-25 season the trade restrictions are in place.

The trade restrictions don't care about where you were the previous season, or where you project to be next season. They only look at the current season.

[BitterJim]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all almost impossible

Other than the trade restrictions not looking at previous/future seasons (which was already addressed), this part isn't true. We wouldn't be able to take in more salary than we sent out, but that wouldn't apply to the team we were trading with. They could still take in more salary than they sent out (based on their own cap situation), so we could still make trades. Those trades would just have to decrease our salary (or keep it the same).

[jordb2k5]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all possible

No, where we end up this season doesn't make a difference regarding next year. 

As a practical matter we're going to be over the second apron pretty much no matter what, so we'll be hit with those penalties anyway.  But, that will be due to our 2025 cap sheet, rather than 2024.

Haha that confuses me just a little more. So when will these restrictions on trades kick in for us? Assuming we stay over this year. Why does the 25 sheet matter more than the 23-24?

Appreciate your help on this I’m trying to learn!

They set these new penalties to only take effect after this season, except for the loss of access to the taxpayer MLE which is $5m, which takes effect this season. So from the point of view of getting penalized, the 2025 cap sheet matters more than this year, because we will actually incur all the penalties for going above the 2nd apron next year.

They're basically trying to give teams who want to stay under the 2nd apron a year to get their affairs in order.

Now I’m more confused because it sounds like you’re saying what I’ve thought all along. If we end up over the apron this season then the 24-25 season the trade restrictions are in place.

The trade restrictions don't care about where you were the previous season, or where you project to be next season. They only look at the current season.

Ok so basically since our cap will be over for the 24-25 season we will be hit with restrictions next summer. If we went over this year but had a large expiring that would not be on our cap for 24/25 we would not have the penalties right?  I am trying to grasp the nuance here.

[jordb2k5]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all almost impossible

Other than the trade restrictions not looking at previous/future seasons (which was already addressed), this part isn't true. We wouldn't be able to take in more salary than we sent out, but that wouldn't apply to the team we were trading with. They could still take in more salary than they sent out (based on their own cap situation), so we could still make trades. Those trades would just have to decrease our salary (or keep it the same).

What would the restrictions be explicitly.

We can’t aggregate
We can’t take in more salary
Would the incoming salary have to be within 10% difference?

[Roy H.]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all possible

No, where we end up this season doesn't make a difference regarding next year. 

As a practical matter we're going to be over the second apron pretty much no matter what, so we'll be hit with those penalties anyway.  But, that will be due to our 2025 cap sheet, rather than 2024.

Haha that confuses me just a little more. So when will these restrictions on trades kick in for us? Assuming we stay over this year. Why does the 25 sheet matter more than the 23-24?

Appreciate your help on this I’m trying to learn!

Basically we're not subject to any penalty until next season. 

As soon as we go over the second apron next season, the penalties go into effect.  And, if a trade would result in us being over the second apron upon consumption of that trade, we can't make it (if it violates a restriction).

[Roy H.]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all almost impossible

Other than the trade restrictions not looking at previous/future seasons (which was already addressed), this part isn't true. We wouldn't be able to take in more salary than we sent out, but that wouldn't apply to the team we were trading with. They could still take in more salary than they sent out (based on their own cap situation), so we could still make trades. Those trades would just have to decrease our salary (or keep it the same).

What would the restrictions be explicitly.

We can’t aggregate
We can’t take in more salary
Would the incoming salary have to be within 10% difference?

No. You can always send out more salary than you take in.  The other team may have its own matching rules, though, due to its cap status.

No TPEs can be used.

[BitterJim]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all almost impossible

Other than the trade restrictions not looking at previous/future seasons (which was already addressed), this part isn't true. We wouldn't be able to take in more salary than we sent out, but that wouldn't apply to the team we were trading with. They could still take in more salary than they sent out (based on their own cap situation), so we could still make trades. Those trades would just have to decrease our salary (or keep it the same).

What would the restrictions be explicitly.

We can’t aggregate
We can’t take in more salary
Would the incoming salary have to be within 10% difference?

No. You can always take in send out more salary than you send out take in.  The other team may have its own matching rules, though, due to its cap status.

No TPEs can be used.

Slight fix to Roy's post

Also, to add to it, the other team could potentially have no restrictions. If they were way under the cap (or had a large TPE, or used the MLE), then we could send them a contract without them sending back any matching salary. It would just get absorbed into their cap space (or exception). Normally a deal like that would generate a TPE for us, but in this case it wouldn't (or it would make one that we couldn't use, so it's essentially the same thing).

Trade rules in the NBA treat the two (or more) sides of the transaction as completely separate entities. As long as each team follows their rules, the trade is legal.

[ozgod]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all possible

No, where we end up this season doesn't make a difference regarding next year. 

As a practical matter we're going to be over the second apron pretty much no matter what, so we'll be hit with those penalties anyway.  But, that will be due to our 2025 cap sheet, rather than 2024.

Haha that confuses me just a little more. So when will these restrictions on trades kick in for us? Assuming we stay over this year. Why does the 25 sheet matter more than the 23-24?

Appreciate your help on this I’m trying to learn!

They set these new penalties to only take effect after this season, except for the loss of access to the taxpayer MLE which is $5m, which takes effect this season. So from the point of view of getting penalized, the 2025 cap sheet matters more than this year, because we will actually incur all the penalties for going above the 2nd apron next year.

They're basically trying to give teams who want to stay under the 2nd apron a year to get their affairs in order.

Now I’m more confused because it sounds like you’re saying what I’ve thought all along. If we end up over the apron this season then the 24-25 season the trade restrictions are in place.

No, if we are over the 2nd apron at any point this season the only penalty is the loss of the TPE. If we are over the 2nd apron at any point next season then we suffer all the penalties until we get back under it. You aren’t being punished next season for the state of your cap this season.

[jordb2k5]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all almost impossible

Other than the trade restrictions not looking at previous/future seasons (which was already addressed), this part isn't true. We wouldn't be able to take in more salary than we sent out, but that wouldn't apply to the team we were trading with. They could still take in more salary than they sent out (based on their own cap situation), so we could still make trades. Those trades would just have to decrease our salary (or keep it the same).

What would the restrictions be explicitly.

We can’t aggregate
We can’t take in more salary
Would the incoming salary have to be within 10% difference?

No. You can always take in send out more salary than you send out take in.  The other team may have its own matching rules, though, due to its cap status.

No TPEs can be used.

Slight fix to Roy's post

Also, to add to it, the other team could potentially have no restrictions. If they were way under the cap (or had a large TPE, or used the MLE), then we could send them a contract without them sending back any matching salary. It would just get absorbed into their cap space (or exception). Normally a deal like that would generate a TPE for us, but in this case it wouldn't (or it would make one that we couldn't use, so it's essentially the same thing).

Trade rules in the NBA treat the two (or more) sides of the transaction as completely separate entities. As long as each team follows their rules, the trade is legal.

Great stuff guys thank you. So I feel much better, we will still be able to make trades if needed. I thought they’d be impossible to pull off. It really seems like it’s as simple as trading for someone making less than who we send out. I had thought salaries had to be identical. The second apron doesn’t seem nearly as scary as I thought it to be. Taxes and stuff well that’s an ownership problem lol.

[ozgod]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all almost impossible

Other than the trade restrictions not looking at previous/future seasons (which was already addressed), this part isn't true. We wouldn't be able to take in more salary than we sent out, but that wouldn't apply to the team we were trading with. They could still take in more salary than they sent out (based on their own cap situation), so we could still make trades. Those trades would just have to decrease our salary (or keep it the same).

What would the restrictions be explicitly.

We can’t aggregate
We can’t take in more salary
Would the incoming salary have to be within 10% difference?

No. You can always take in send out more salary than you send out take in.  The other team may have its own matching rules, though, due to its cap status.

No TPEs can be used.

Slight fix to Roy's post

Also, to add to it, the other team could potentially have no restrictions. If they were way under the cap (or had a large TPE, or used the MLE), then we could send them a contract without them sending back any matching salary. It would just get absorbed into their cap space (or exception). Normally a deal like that would generate a TPE for us, but in this case it wouldn't (or it would make one that we couldn't use, so it's essentially the same thing).

Trade rules in the NBA treat the two (or more) sides of the transaction as completely separate entities. As long as each team follows their rules, the trade is legal.

Great stuff guys thank you. So I feel much better, we will still be able to make trades if needed. I thought they’d be impossible to pull off. It really seems like it’s as simple as trading for someone making less than who we send out. I had thought salaries had to be identical. The second apron doesn’t seem nearly as scary as I thought it to be. Taxes and stuff well that’s an ownership problem lol.

Well it's not that the penalties aren't onerous...they are, intentionally so. They didn't want teams to keep doing what Golden State and the Clippers have been doing, constantly operating significantly over the luxury tax by choice and just paying crazy amounts of tax to have stacked rosters. Being unable to aggregate salaries in a trade means that we can really only trade like-for-like or like-for-less...we can't add up Pritchard, Banton and Brissett to get a guy that would be worth those three salaries for example. Can't use TPEs (we have the GWill exception which is $6.2m, the Justin Jackson which is $1.8m, and the Vonleh one which is $500k)...can't use cash in trades...they all just give us less flexibility. The pick freeze would also be inconvenient.

Brad will have to decide whether the loss of those, and the inflexibility it gives us, is worth keeping the gang we have, along with their big salaries, together next year. But that's why he gets paid the big bucks and we don't 

[cman88]

if we can win a championship no one will care about the penalties. wyc talked about a 6 year window. glad they are putting their money where their mouth is.

winning a championship is hard and you need to go for it when you are close. only 1 in the last 15 years. and yet we've been close so many times. but due to bad luck, injuries etc. you never know what is gonna happen. the kg/pp/ra era should've had more than 1.

[tenn_smoothie]

OK, So all this talk about the Celtics going all in financially to win the title. Fine with me, About time. Along with this development has been a discussion of the CBA salary cap issues looming that will eventually break up our talented roster, thus increasing the pressure to win titles now.

While I agree that banners for this current group are long past due, my question is, why do these new salary cap rules and the dreaded "second apron" that comes with them, make it supposedly impossible to keep a championship roster together. I understand such a scenario gets very expensive, but if the team is winning titles and the owners are willing to continue to support the huge payroll (while still making some profit), is there some CBA rule that absolutely prevents this ? Seems the league has always been healthiest with dominant teams, so why legislate parity ?

[BitterJim]

OK, So all this talk about the Celtics going all in financially to win the title. Fine with me, About time. Along with this development has been a discussion of the CBA salary cap issues looming that will eventually break up our talented roster, thus increasing the pressure to win titles now.

While I agree that banners for this current group are long past due, my question is, why do these new salary cap rules and the dreaded "second apron" that comes with them, make it supposedly impossible to keep a championship roster together. I understand such a scenario gets very expensive, but if the team is winning titles and the owners are willing to continue to support the huge payroll (while still making some profit), is there some CBA rule that absolutely prevents this ? Seems the league has always been healthiest with dominant teams, so why legislate parity ?

The biggest issues are the extremely punitive repeater tax penalties, having some picks moved to the end of the first round, and the trade rules that make it very hard to replace any talent that either leaves in FA or gets old. Between the inability to trade some picks and not being allowed to add or aggregate salaries in trades, we're gonna have a hard time replacing Al

[tazzmaniac]

OK, So all this talk about the Celtics going all in financially to win the title. Fine with me, About time. Along with this development has been a discussion of the CBA salary cap issues looming that will eventually break up our talented roster, thus increasing the pressure to win titles now.

While I agree that banners for this current group are long past due, my question is, why do these new salary cap rules and the dreaded "second apron" that comes with them, make it supposedly impossible to keep a championship roster together. I understand such a scenario gets very expensive, but if the team is winning titles and the owners are willing to continue to support the huge payroll (while still making some profit), is there some CBA rule that absolutely prevents this ? Seems the league has always been healthiest with dominant teams, so why legislate parity ?

The biggest issues are the extremely punitive repeater tax penalties, having some picks moved to the end of the first round, and the trade rules that make it very hard to replace any talent that either leaves in FA or gets old. Between the inability to trade some picks and not being allowed to add or aggregate salaries in trades, we're gonna have a hard time replacing Al

I haven't looked into the new CBA.  However, the repeater tax penalties is just an ownership issue which they are more likely to accept if the team is dominant.  If you're a dominant team, you're going to be picking at the end of the 1st round anyway.  So neither of those seem to be significant impacts as long as the team remains dominant.  Which would seem to promote teams building through the draft  rather than acquiring older star talent.  Certainly don't understand the trade rules to understand how significant an impact those are.  Is there any issue in regards to retaining younger talent as it develops besides ownership being willing to pay up?