Where are we with the "second apron"?

[BitterJim]

What a mess this CBA has become. Has it achieved its goals ? Exactly what were the goals of this thing when it started ?

The goal of the players and owners coming to an agreement so they all make money and we get to watch basketball? Yes, I would say it's been very successful

[jordb2k5]

Alright so to recap the Celtics are still at a crossroads with the second apron. They are currently over but viable path to duck under would be moving Svi & Banton with cash & 2nds. Later signing players pro rated vet minimum. Is this still accurate?

They could go vastly over the second apron by using the grant TPE. I believe Otto Porter fits and only has one year left. I think that’s the guy to go for and do it soon. He can be aggregated later in the year in a deal. It costs more in luxury tax but also gives us a solid trade ballast combined with NGTD guys. Also my understanding is Pritchard can still be traded even after extension, he even is able to be moved for someone making 6.6M. I don’t think they are trading him but I’m merely laying out the possibilities based on my understanding of the cap.

I continue to insist I don’t want to see a middle of the road approach. A part of me still leans that it might be preferable to try to duck it this year. It depends on if we really can acquire a difference maker with the TPE aggregated. The TPE on its own I don’t see much available unless we attach picks for guys on rookie deals. Either go for it all the way or duck the apron one more year.

Why duck it?

I’m torn but the main reason being how impossible it will be for us to make trades at the second apron. If they win it all this year it doesn’t matter. We just won’t have any viable paths for adding talent anymore. Only vet minimum and late draft picks. How will we replace Horford? These are the issues that run through my head

I still ultimately think they need to go all in and use the TPE to aggregate with non GTD guys. I think you can get enough salary together to get a good player. Otherwise it’s not worth much on its own from what I’ve seen.

[Roy H.]

Alright so to recap the Celtics are still at a crossroads with the second apron. They are currently over but viable path to duck under would be moving Svi & Banton with cash & 2nds. Later signing players pro rated vet minimum. Is this still accurate?

They could go vastly over the second apron by using the grant TPE. I believe Otto Porter fits and only has one year left. I think that’s the guy to go for and do it soon. He can be aggregated later in the year in a deal. It costs more in luxury tax but also gives us a solid trade ballast combined with NGTD guys. Also my understanding is Pritchard can still be traded even after extension, he even is able to be moved for someone making 6.6M. I don’t think they are trading him but I’m merely laying out the possibilities based on my understanding of the cap.

I continue to insist I don’t want to see a middle of the road approach. A part of me still leans that it might be preferable to try to duck it this year. It depends on if we really can acquire a difference maker with the TPE aggregated. The TPE on its own I don’t see much available unless we attach picks for guys on rookie deals. Either go for it all the way or duck the apron one more year.

Why duck it?

I’m torn but the main reason being how impossible it will be for us to make trades at the second apron. If they win it all this year it doesn’t matter. We just won’t have any viable paths for adding talent anymore. Only vet minimum and late draft picks. How will we replace Horford? These are the issues that run through my head

I still ultimately think they need to go all in and use the TPE to aggregate with non GTD guys. I think you can get enough salary together to get a good player. Otherwise it’s not worth much on its own from what I’ve seen.

It's possible to exceed it this year without taking on salary that affects next year's cap, though.  I think that's the ideal for right now.

[Vermont Green]

Alright so to recap the Celtics are still at a crossroads with the second apron. They are currently over but viable path to duck under would be moving Svi & Banton with cash & 2nds. Later signing players pro rated vet minimum. Is this still accurate?

They could go vastly over the second apron by using the grant TPE. I believe Otto Porter fits and only has one year left. I think that’s the guy to go for and do it soon. He can be aggregated later in the year in a deal. It costs more in luxury tax but also gives us a solid trade ballast combined with NGTD guys. Also my understanding is Pritchard can still be traded even after extension, he even is able to be moved for someone making 6.6M. I don’t think they are trading him but I’m merely laying out the possibilities based on my understanding of the cap.

I continue to insist I don’t want to see a middle of the road approach. A part of me still leans that it might be preferable to try to duck it this year. It depends on if we really can acquire a difference maker with the TPE aggregated. The TPE on its own I don’t see much available unless we attach picks for guys on rookie deals. Either go for it all the way or duck the apron one more year.

Not quite, Svi Mykhailuik and Banton are both essentially non-guaranteed until the first day of the season so there is no need to attach anything to them and trade them, at least until the start of the season.  All the Celtics need to do is waive them, which I am sure they would do if a better opportunity presented itself.  Once the season starts and they are partially guaranteed, then yes, maybe they become part of a trade to open a spot on the roster and/or cut some salary.

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

I suspect that they are going to let the tail end of the off season play out and see who becomes available.  There are teams that will need to make roster adjustments.  Players will become available either waived or via a trade with the TPE (no player going back to the other team).  If something you like becomes available, great, grab the player.  If not, so be it, start the season with what you have and look for an in season trade.  Worst case, make the best deal you can at the trade dead line.

[Roy H.]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

[jordb2k5]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline. 

[Vermont Green]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

[Roy H.]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

[jordb2k5]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all next year. The draft picks being frozen is meh and the tax dollars aren’t mine. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

[Roy H.]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

[ozgod]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

The way I see it the only negative would be that if you significantly exceed it (blow the bank in other words) to the point where it would make it heard to pull it back next year, if the goal was then to stay below it to not suffer those roster building penalties. If you look at our cap next year we're already going to be over the 2nd apron just with the 11 players we would have on the roster:



I also put together a chart for those who are more visual than numeric 



We would have an active roster cap of $197m, vs the 2nd apron of $192m. If we renounced the non guaranteed ones and didn't take up Hauser's club option that would be $6.1m which would come off the books, so we would be on the hook for $191.4m in guaranteed salaries and player options which would get us just under the 2nd apron, with 8 players on the roster.

I think they're prepared to be an over the 2nd apron team for the next few years...remember that after next season Tatum will probably get a supermax and we will have two guys that will be taking up 70% of the cap. I can't see any way around it unless they can renegotiate Jrue's extension and shave $10m a year off that. That would give them $4-5m to spend to fill out the rest of the roster. Or they trade PP somewhere else to not have to bear his $6.6m a year. The point being that they don't want to be so far over it (blow the bank in other words) that they put themselves in such a financially inflexible position that they reduce their options because they end up on the hook for too many contracts.

As Vermont Green said earlier, I think Wyc and Brad have shown they will swing for the fences when it comes to the right deal, but they're not going to blow past the 2nd apron just for "maybe" players or insurance guys to fill out the end of the bench to make us fans and Felger and MAzz feel good. It's going to have to be a compelling need that makes itself apparent over the course of the season or a really good opportunity that comes up. So I think next season we will have to get used to those roster penalties because they will be levied upon us.

[jordb2k5]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all almost impossible

[Roy H.]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all possible

No, where we end up this season doesn't make a difference regarding next year. 

As a practical matter we're going to be over the second apron pretty much no matter what, so we'll be hit with those penalties anyway.  But, that will be due to our 2025 cap sheet, rather than 2024.

[jordb2k5]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all possible

No, where we end up this season doesn't make a difference regarding next year. 

As a practical matter we're going to be over the second apron pretty much no matter what, so we'll be hit with those penalties anyway.  But, that will be due to our 2025 cap sheet, rather than 2024.

Haha that confuses me just a little more. So when will these restrictions on trades kick in for us? Assuming we stay over this year. Why does the 25 sheet matter more than the 23-24?

Appreciate your help on this I’m trying to learn!

[ozgod]

As to "ducking" the second apron, I believe the Celtics would go over it for the right deal but they are not going to do a deal just to do a deal.  There are implications if you go over and I am sure they will weigh that, but for the right deal, I think they will go over, and should go over.

A lot of people are saying the same thing.  What implications are there for exceeding the apron this year?  What incentive is there to avoid the second apron this year?

I don't think people realize that there are no penalties for being over the second apron this year, and the repeater clock doesn't start running, either.

The incentive would be to not be penalized next year with trades. However I completely agree that if we are set and going to be over it's not our money. Let's trade for Otto Porter Jr soon and then aggregate him with Non GTD guys. We can def get a real rotation player with that amount of salary by adding picks around the deadline.

Yeah, I could be wrong, I will be the first to admit I do not fully understand all of the new rules, but I thought that at a minimum, it was a start the clock thing.  That there would be an advantage to delaying going over the apron if the Celtics can.  They are likely to be over next season with Brown's contact kicking in.

It doesn't start the clock.

Any salary we carry over into next year obviously makes it harder to get under the apron next year -- when there are penalties -- but there's literally no reason not to exceed the apron this year.

Even using the TPE and aggregating additional salaries to bring in an impact player doesn't bring any penalty with it.  If the player we acquire has a long-term contract, that's one more salary pushing us above the tax *next year*, but there's no penalty this year.

Yes there is. The trade restrictions are hugely negative, we won’t be able to make trades at all. To be clear I would rather we just go all in as I’ve said but we can’t pretend there’s no reason to not exceed the apron.

What trade restrictions are you referring to?

There are trade restrictions if we exceed the apron next season, but there's no penalty that carries over from this season into next.

And, even second apron teams can makes trades.  They have to send out more than they bring in and cannot aggregate salaries or use TPEs.  But, those aren't related to our 2024 cap sheet.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. If we are over the second apron this year, then next season trades have to match dollar for dollar do they not? Also the not being able to aggregate salaries. If I have it correct these are severe restrictions that make making nearly any trade at all possible

No, where we end up this season doesn't make a difference regarding next year. 

As a practical matter we're going to be over the second apron pretty much no matter what, so we'll be hit with those penalties anyway.  But, that will be due to our 2025 cap sheet, rather than 2024.

Haha that confuses me just a little more. So when will these restrictions on trades kick in for us? Assuming we stay over this year. Why does the 25 sheet matter more than the 23-24?

Appreciate your help on this I’m trying to learn!

They set these new penalties to only take effect after this season, except for the loss of access to the taxpayer MLE which is $5m, which takes effect this season. So from the point of view of getting penalized, the 2025 cap sheet matters more than this year, because we will actually incur all the penalties for going above the 2nd apron next year.

They're basically trying to give teams who want to stay under the 2nd apron a year to get their affairs in order.