Post Godfather Offers for JB

[PhoSita]

Yeah, there was talk a while ago about Mitchell wanting to play in a bigger market. That he felt he was not getting the credit / respect he deserved -- from fans, the media, award recognition, perhaps sponsorship opportunities.

That seems to be the crux of it for Mitchell = why he is unsettled.

when have we ever seen a guy who is unhappy with being in a smaller market agitate to leave his team and ... come to Boston?

you could point to Gordon Hayward, but I think it's fair to say that the personal connection with Brad Stevens was a big deal there.  also Hayward is from Indiana, so for him Boston perhaps genuinely felt like a big market.  he also probably didn't feel like Boston's lack of diversity was as much of an issue from a cultural standpoint.

Kyrie Irving comes to mind, but I think in retrospect it's especially easy to see that he never really saw Boston as a long term spot, it was just a stepping stone for him to get to New York.


speaking of New York ... Mitchell grew up in New York.  he's a Mets fan.  I doubt very much that Boston seems like a large market to him, even though it is without a doubt a higher profile place than Salt Lake City.

Feels like some serious hair splitting here. It's not hard to imagine Boston being on a list of destinations Mitchell could prefer to Utah if he doesn't like their direction. Might he prefer LA or NY? Sure, but by the time this could come around, the Basketball piece combined with proximity to home may be a solid combo in Boston.

I guess I'm just very skeptical of two key things

(1) that players around the league see the Celtics as a situation conducive to winning (especially when we're talking about a player on a team that is significantly better than the Celts right now)

(2) that players around the league view Boston as a desirable location to live

[PhoSita]

Eh, I don't think Kyrie saw Boston as a stepping stone... at least not at first.  I think he legit wanted to be here during that first year, when the honeymoon phase was still fresh.  Then we hit some adversity, he couldn't handle the Boston media well, fans cooled on him some, kids on the roster didn't step to his rhythm quite the way he wanted, and he decided the grass was greener someplace else.  He's a flake.  But he did like Boston when things were going well. 

it's impossible to prove or disprove. I do recall that Ryen Russillo has been pretty adamant about hearing through the grapevine that Kyrie was never really into the idea of staying in Boston and that he always had his eye on an exit strategy.

that idea is certainly consistent with Kyrie's behavior and eventual decision. 

personally, I think about how Kyrie basically opted out of the playoffs his first season in Boston (getting knee surgery which from what I remember sounded like something that was not necessarily required at the time that he got it) and then very obviously quit in the 2nd round of the 2019 playoffs .... to me that speaks profoundly to the fact that Kyrie was never actually that interested in being "the guy" in Boston. 

maybe if he showed up and the team was immediately awesome, things would've been different. but he had no interest in sticking around unless the team was so good that he had to stay.

[KG Living Legend]

 OG Ananoby and Scottie Barnes and One First for JKJB

Timelord
Scottie Barnes
Tatum
Ananoby
Smart

That looks like an extremely well balanced team on paper. Defensive Monster. And Barnes passing ability and unselfish play would change the dynamic completely.

That is a cool team for Boston. I would enjoy that group.

That is like having two Marcus Smarts in Smart & Anunoby doing elite glue guy type of stuff. Rob Williams as an athletic rim runner and interior defender.

Jayson Tatum as a Carmelo Anthony type scoring star. Scottie Barnes as an Andre Iguodala to Scottie Pippen type star. I like the balance / counter-balancing of that duo.

That would be a great group to build around. Amazing athleticism, tough defense, stick-to-it-iveness. Lots of unselfish players around Tatum. Team first guys.

--------------------------

On second thought, I wonder if it is too much a 90s or 00s type team. Too much defense not enough shooting / offense.

I am thinking back to my previous criticisms of Smart + Rob Williams in the same team being too limited offensively to play together on a title contender - with the exception of having three elite scorer / shooters next to them which this group does not have.

I wonder if at some point you have to upgrade Smart for more of an offensive minded PG be it a scorer or balanced offensive PG (as opposed to a defensive minded PG like Smart).

 Plus one Who I like that team a lot as well

[KG Living Legend]

Logically speaking, if the franchise is in a state where it can't retain Jaylen Brown due to front office and coaching incompetence, there isn't any workaround for that.  If he pushes for a trade, the C's are doomed.

Its hard to see how one trade under such conditions could put enough shine on this thing to keep Tatum the next year.

I don't see how the franchise can entertain going in reverse at this point, and rebuild.

Agreed -- if Brown asks out, Tatum will not be far behind.

No, I disagree. I think it's fine (Jaylen leaving) so long as you can make a lateral move or even better an upgrade.

The odds of being able to make a lateral move are pretty solid because Jaylen is young, established, highly productive and on a great contract. There will be a strong trade market for him. Plus, he fits just about anywhere (unlike guys like Ben Simmons).

I only see this as a "lose Tatum" type situation if the front office decides to trade Jaylen for prospects and/or picks. A future based trade. A rebuilding trade. In this scenario, I do not see Tatum having the patience to wait through it. His contract expires at the wrong moment. He'll be evaluating his options and he'll likely decide he wants to spend his prime playing a Championship not waiting for kids to develop so he'll leave.

But like I said, I am very happy with the trade market for Jaylen Brown and the ability to make a sideways move (lateral trade) should Jaylen ever decide he wants out. I do not view that as a lose Tatum option. This is still "business as normal". Just a different route. Same goal, same timeline, different path forward.

if Jaylen is asking out what sort of team do you think is going to give the Celts a big haul that can then be put to the use of making the Celts competitive in the short term?

Teams that have to trade a core player because that player wants to leave don't typically get better afterward.

While Jaylen will have 2 years left on his deal as of this summer, meaning the Celts aren't in the worst position to negotiate a trade, they're also not in a great spot if Jaylen is asking out. 

You also have to factor in where Jaylen wants to go.  Again, two years left on his deal means he won't technically have much ability to dictate where he ends up. But if you're the Celtics and you've seen all manner of  talent go out the door over the last 5 years, can you really afford to reinforce the idea that you're not a franchise that does right by its players?  Sending Jaylen to some rebuilding team in a small market, if that's not the type of situation he wants to be in, would probably exacerbate that issue.


In short, I think you're glossing over what Jaylen asking out would say about the current state of the Celtics and also the perception of the team around the league that must exist already and will persist / worsen due to him asking out.  I really don't think it's as simple as just going "Oh, well, no biggie, let's just swap him for a comparable talent and see if that mix works better."

 Hear what your saying Pho. However the reason we are talking about this is because it looks like Jaylen will walk out the door when his contract is up at this moment.

[Celtics2021]

Mitchell is unhappy on a winning Jazz team so he wants to go East to a .500 Celtics team in Boston? That strikes me as implausible.

Have you ever lived in Utah in your 20s? Life elements exist.

And would you rather play with Tatum, or Gobert?

Jaylen and Mitchell are pretty close.  Spider would like to play with the J’s is my guess, and not be traded for one of them.

[droopdog7]

Logically speaking, if the franchise is in a state where it can't retain Jaylen Brown due to front office and coaching incompetence, there isn't any workaround for that.  If he pushes for a trade, the C's are doomed.

Its hard to see how one trade under such conditions could put enough shine on this thing to keep Tatum the next year.

I don't see how the franchise can entertain going in reverse at this point, and rebuild.

Agreed -- if Brown asks out, Tatum will not be far behind.

No, I disagree. I think it's fine (Jaylen leaving) so long as you can make a lateral move or even better an upgrade.

The odds of being able to make a lateral move are pretty solid because Jaylen is young, established, highly productive and on a great contract. There will be a strong trade market for him. Plus, he fits just about anywhere (unlike guys like Ben Simmons).

I only see this as a "lose Tatum" type situation if the front office decides to trade Jaylen for prospects and/or picks. A future based trade. A rebuilding trade. In this scenario, I do not see Tatum having the patience to wait through it. His contract expires at the wrong moment. He'll be evaluating his options and he'll likely decide he wants to spend his prime playing a Championship not waiting for kids to develop so he'll leave.

But like I said, I am very happy with the trade market for Jaylen Brown and the ability to make a sideways move (lateral trade) should Jaylen ever decide he wants out. I do not view that as a lose Tatum option. This is still "business as normal". Just a different route. Same goal, same timeline, different path forward.

if Jaylen is asking out what sort of team do you think is going to give the Celts a big haul that can then be put to the use of making the Celts competitive in the short term?

Teams that have to trade a core player because that player wants to leave don't typically get better afterward.

While Jaylen will have 2 years left on his deal as of this summer, meaning the Celts aren't in the worst position to negotiate a trade, they're also not in a great spot if Jaylen is asking out. 

You also have to factor in where Jaylen wants to go.  Again, two years left on his deal means he won't technically have much ability to dictate where he ends up. But if you're the Celtics and you've seen all manner of  talent go out the door over the last 5 years, can you really afford to reinforce the idea that you're not a franchise that does right by its players?  Sending Jaylen to some rebuilding team in a small market, if that's not the type of situation he wants to be in, would probably exacerbate that issue.


In short, I think you're glossing over what Jaylen asking out would say about the current state of the Celtics and also the perception of the team around the league that must exist already and will persist / worsen due to him asking out.  I really don't think it's as simple as just going "Oh, well, no biggie, let's just swap him for a comparable talent and see if that mix works better."

 Hear what your saying Pho. However the reason we are talking about this is because it looks like Jaylen will walk out the door when his contract is up at this moment.

It's still too early to say that it looks like he'll walk out the door.  But make no mistake, we're on the clock.  Make the wrong moves and this thing gonna blow up like Mount Saint Helens.

[PhoSita]

 Hear what your saying Pho. However the reason we are talking about this is because it looks like Jaylen will walk out the door when his contract is up at this moment.

agreed. I don't think we need a report from Bulpett to tell us that, either. 

I assume that if the Celtics continue to flounder around .500 and then lose in the play-in / 1st round, neither Brown nor Tatum will be interested in sticking around long term. in fact I assume both of them will make it clear to ownership that they'd like to be traded before they even hit UFA, if things don't improve.


I also assume that if the Celts end up having to trade Jaylen, a trade request from Tatum will not be long in following. the only exception would be if the Celts manage to get back a haul of players and picks that very quickly turn into a surprising bounceback type season.  So like if the Celts were forced to trade Jaylen this summer and then they have a feel-good / bounceback 55 win season next year with a deeper / younger / more balanced roster, maybe then Tatum is satisfied for the short term.

of course, even then I would assume that if the Celts continue to seem like an also-ran with no obvious prospects for reaching contention, Jayson is going to look at other options once he gets to UFA.

all of this said, I don't think it can be underscored enough -- the Celtics cannot afford to let Jaylen or Jayson reach UFA and leave for nothing.  You're facing a rebuild either way but the pain will be so much greater if they leave for nothing.

[Who]

Another

Brown for Garland, Jarrett Allen and a first

I don't think you can get both Garland and J.Allen for Jaylen. Garland is having a breakout year and is a serious candidate to be an All-Star. He is still young and should only get better.

A one for one trade of Garland for Jaylen sounds reasonable. Perhaps a smaller asset as well like a bench player or a late first.

Jarrett Allen is having a big year as well but I don't believe his trade value is as high. I'd expect to get him and another good starter for Jaylen. Maybe Markkanen ... although that may be stretching things. Sexton, sure. Something like that = J.Allen + a good starter.

[KG Living Legend]

Another

Brown for Garland, Jarrett Allen and a first

I don't think you can get both Garland and J.Allen for Jaylen. Garland is having a breakout year and is a serious candidate to be an All-Star. He is still young and should only get better.

A one for one trade of Garland for Jaylen sounds reasonable. Perhaps a smaller asset as well like a bench player or a late first.

Jarrett Allen is having a big year as well but I don't believe his trade value is as high. I'd expect to get him and another good starter for Jaylen. Maybe Markkanen ... although that may be stretching things. Sexton, sure. Something like that = J.Allen + a good starter.

 I realize that,  the point of the drill was Godfather deals. Deals that really would be hard to turn down.

 Garland for Brown straight up I would not be thrilled.  Toss is Allen and a pick and I really have to think about it if I'm Brad. 

 Even if you flip Allen again , I think Allen's value is fairly high right now.

[GreenlyGreeny]

We have to ship him West or it could blow up in our faces. The dudes who ran the Nets in 2013 are no longer around, so let’s keep it realistic:

Top Preference
BOS In: D. Murray, Young
SAS In: Brown, Schröder

Murray has the potential to be the next John Stockton. I absolutely adore him and think he would elevate Tatum to top fivedom, and improve the game of everyone around him (something Brown clearly does not do for us).
 
Second Preference
BOS In: Giddey, as many 1st round picks as we can get
OKC In: Brown, Schröder

Let’s us have space to sign Beal as our number two with Giddey giving us a Big 3. Giddey has potential to be a poor man’s Magic Johnson, but that’s still an all-star PG who makes everyone around him better.

Third Preference
BOS In: Kawhi
LAC In: Brown, Schröder, 2+ firsts (no way to get Kawhi without them)

Top five players win titles and usually cost a lot to obtain. The injury scares me.

Fourth Preference
BOS In: Halliburton, Mitchell, Barnes, Len
SAC In: Brown, Schröder, Nesmith, Langford

Halliburton has similar potential to Dejounte Murray. Mitchell is basically Smart’s younger brother. Barnes would be solid.

Fifth Preference
BOS In: Zion, Louzda, Satoransky
NOP In: Brown, Schröder, 3+ firsts (no way to get Zion without them)

Zion is a ticket/jersey seller but I’m skeptical. Doubtful we’d have the shot, anyway.

Sixth Preference
BOS In: Towns
MIN In: Brown, Schröder, 2+ picks

Not even sure I’d do this. Towns is kind of the big man version of Brown in my mind: Really, really good, but not great and doesn’t have the it that wins championships.

All of these moves probably give us better balance and better chemistry.

Kawhi is still a top five player and possibly the best come playoffs. If not for his injury, that would still be my preference. Other than choosing Olynyk over Giannis, which is still understandable given how little we knew in 2013, passing on Kawhi when he was probably available for Brown is the one move that drives me bananas. I firmly believe we’d have won a title had we been the ones to trade for Kawhi instead of Toronto. And I’ve got a feeling joining the Bill Russell Celtics Pride would have resulted in him re-signing to have an epic rivalry with LeBron in LA. Frankly, if people wanna know why I want JB out of sight/out of mind, it’s because I know choosing him over Kawhi in 2018-2019 is why the Raptors have more titles in the past dozen years than we do. And I’ve got a feeling Kawhi/Kyrie would have been the enigmatic duo keeping us in title contention for years including today.

The hilarious part if the JKJB crew rule the day for a little over two more years: I bet heavily that JB jumps ship for LA or Miami when his contract is done if he finishes it in Boston (and we’ll still have fewer titles than the Raptors do in the past dozen years). And when that happens, guess who peaces out next: Yep, JT. And we’re left with Smart, Timelord and whoever we draft the next couple years. Real exciting to imagine. Unless Tatum loves Brown and wants to stick with him, we gotta do whatever it takes to make Tatum happy or we’re up a creek in 2.5 years (we’ll be longing for the days when JT/JB kept us consistently around .500 🤣)