Post Godfather Offers for JB

[todd_days_41]

Mitchell is unhappy on a winning Jazz team so he wants to go East to a .500 Celtics team in Boston? That strikes me as implausible.

Have you ever lived in Utah in your 20s? Life elements exist.

And would you rather play with Tatum, or Gobert?

[Who]

Brown and an asset or two for Donovan Mitchell.

Rumors he may want to leave Utah, and he's an East Coast kid (grew up outside New York, went to my alma mater for grade school in CT, and also HS in CT).

On the other hand, if I am Utah, there is no way I trade Donovan Mitchell for Jaylen Brown. Not unless Mitchell says he wants out. That he is definitely leaving.

I do not like Jaylen in that Utah offense.

They are too reliant on Donovan Mitchell's ball-handling, individual shot creation and facilitation of the offense with his passing. He carries a heavy burden. Jaylen can't do that. And Utah doesn't have enough talent elsewhere on the team to make up the difference. Plus, Mike Conley is old. This would send the team into a semi-rebuild / retooling phase that takes them out of title contention and back into the middle of the pack of the playoff teams in the West. Good but not good enough. Second round and out sorta team.

It could work out in the long run if Utah could replace Conley with a younger PG (Fox?) to make up the playmaking loss. Or if they find a way to add a 4th star to provide some ball-handling, passing and shot-creation in between Conley and Jaylen. A present day version of Jeff Hornacek. That too could put them back in title contention.

But both of those options are unlikely be readily available so I would be extremely reluctant to trade Donovan Mitchell for Jaylen Brown unless I felt I was forced to do so because Mitchell told me he for sure was leaving / wanted out. In that case, Jaylen is a good return for Mitchell and gives me some hope in a semi-rebuild situation.

[Who]

Brown and an asset or two for Donovan Mitchell.

Rumors he may want to leave Utah, and he's an East Coast kid (grew up outside New York, went to my alma mater for grade school in CT, and also HS in CT).

On the other hand, if I am Utah, there is no way I trade Donovan Mitchell for Jaylen Brown. Not unless Mitchell says he wants out. That he is definitely leaving.

I do not like Jaylen in that Utah offense.

They are too reliant on Donovan Mitchell's ball-handling, individual shot creation and facilitation of the offense with his passing. He carries a heavy burden. Jaylen can't do that. And Utah doesn't have enough talent elsewhere on the team to make up the difference. Plus, Mike Conley is old. This would send the team into a semi-rebuild / retooling phase that takes them out of title contention and back into the middle of the pack of the playoff teams in the West. Good but not good enough. Second round and out sorta team.

It could work out in the long run if Utah could replace Conley with a younger PG (Fox?) to make up the playmaking loss. Or if they find a way to add a 4th star to provide some ball-handling, passing and shot-creation in between Conley and Jaylen. A present day version of Jeff Hornacek. That too could put them back in title contention.

But both of those options are unlikely be readily available so I would be extremely reluctant to trade Donovan Mitchell for Jaylen Brown unless I felt I was forced to do so because Mitchell told me he for sure was leaving / wanted out. In that case, Jaylen is a good return for Mitchell and gives me some hope in a semi-rebuild situation.

Interesting compare and contrast opportunity here with what I was saying above about Jaylen Brown.

No, I disagree. I think it's fine (Jaylen leaving) so long as you can make a lateral move or even better an upgrade.

The odds of being able to make a lateral move are pretty solid because Jaylen is young, established, highly productive and on a great contract. There will be a strong trade market for him. Plus, he fits just about anywhere (unlike guys like Ben Simmons).

So I don't view the Utah and Donovan Mitchell situation as the same as Boston and Jaylen Brown at all.

The main reason is that Mitchell is an unusual sort of star. He can carry a huge offensive load for his team but he can't do efficiently enough to be a Grade A superstar. So he doesn't compare to those guys but he also does far more offensively than most Grade B stars like Jaylen Brown.

There are pluses and minuses to this. One criticism of Mitchell is how well would his game adapt to sharing the ball with more talented offensive teammates. But a positive is his ability to carry more offensive responsibility when paired with less talented offensive teammates than other Grade B stars.

That is the scenario I see in Utah and that will be extremely difficult to replace for Utah because it is a rare quality. Nobody is giving up a genuine superstar for Mitchell because he is not good enough and there are very few Grade B stars (if any) who can shoulder as much offensive load as he does. This makes him extremely difficult to replace.

So if faced with losing Mitchell in a trade, it is extremely unlikely in my view that Utah can make a lateral move and hold steady. They are very likely to take a backwards step and lose distance with the top of the Western Conference teams.

Whereas Jaylen Brown has a game that is more easy to replace which gives Boston far more options in the trade market to make a lateral trade.

-------------------------

I mean, Mike Conley is the 2nd best offensive player on that team. What other contender has a 2nd best offensive player who scores 14-16ppg and 5-6apg?

This is how big of a burden Donovan Mitchell is able to carry and why he is so difficult to replace because the only guys who can replace him effectively are far better than because they are far more efficient scorers. His unusual game + Utah's team composition makes Mitchell more difficult to replace than Jaylen Brown is for us.

[todd_days_41]

Brown and an asset or two for Donovan Mitchell.

Rumors he may want to leave Utah, and he's an East Coast kid (grew up outside New York, went to my alma mater for grade school in CT, and also HS in CT).

On the other hand, if I am Utah, there is no way I trade Donovan Mitchell for Jaylen Brown. Not unless Mitchell says he wants out. That he is definitely leaving.

I do not like Jaylen in that Utah offense.

They are too reliant on Donovan Mitchell's ball-handling, individual shot creation and facilitation of the offense with his passing. He carries a heavy burden. Jaylen can't do that. And Utah doesn't have enough talent elsewhere on the team to make up the difference. Plus, Mike Conley is old. This would send the team into a semi-rebuild / retooling phase that takes them out of title contention and back into the middle of the pack of the playoff teams in the West. Good but not good enough. Second round and out sorta team.

It could work out in the long run if Utah could replace Conley with a younger PG (Fox?) to make up the playmaking loss. Or if they find a way to add a 4th star to provide some ball-handling, passing and shot-creation in between Conley and Jaylen. A present day version of Jeff Hornacek. That too could put them back in title contention.

But both of those options are unlikely be readily available so I would be extremely reluctant to trade Donovan Mitchell for Jaylen Brown unless I felt I was forced to do so because Mitchell told me he for sure was leaving / wanted out. In that case, Jaylen is a good return for Mitchell and gives me some hope in a semi-rebuild situation.

Outside of Gobert, what else does Utah have?

This is clearly not happening soon. I'm thinking more as the Jazz trend down (which they are and will), and Mitchell begins to press the front office on a long term plan. Because Utah isn't exactly bursting with your talent and assets.

[Who]

Brown and an asset or two for Donovan Mitchell.

Rumors he may want to leave Utah, and he's an East Coast kid (grew up outside New York, went to my alma mater for grade school in CT, and also HS in CT).

On the other hand, if I am Utah, there is no way I trade Donovan Mitchell for Jaylen Brown. Not unless Mitchell says he wants out. That he is definitely leaving.

I do not like Jaylen in that Utah offense.

They are too reliant on Donovan Mitchell's ball-handling, individual shot creation and facilitation of the offense with his passing. He carries a heavy burden. Jaylen can't do that. And Utah doesn't have enough talent elsewhere on the team to make up the difference. Plus, Mike Conley is old. This would send the team into a semi-rebuild / retooling phase that takes them out of title contention and back into the middle of the pack of the playoff teams in the West. Good but not good enough. Second round and out sorta team.

It could work out in the long run if Utah could replace Conley with a younger PG (Fox?) to make up the playmaking loss. Or if they find a way to add a 4th star to provide some ball-handling, passing and shot-creation in between Conley and Jaylen. A present day version of Jeff Hornacek. That too could put them back in title contention.

But both of those options are unlikely be readily available so I would be extremely reluctant to trade Donovan Mitchell for Jaylen Brown unless I felt I was forced to do so because Mitchell told me he for sure was leaving / wanted out. In that case, Jaylen is a good return for Mitchell and gives me some hope in a semi-rebuild situation.

Outside of Gobert, what else does Utah have?

This is clearly not happening soon. I'm thinking more as the Jazz trend down (which they are and will), and Mitchell begins to press the front office on a long term plan. Because Utah isn't exactly bursting with your talent and assets.

I like Utah in terms of building around / retooling around Gobert & Donovan Mitchell.

Mitchell can carry a huge load offensively and Gobert can carry a huge load defensively. They give the team a solid basis on both ends of the court. A team identity. A style of play.

... I like their capacity to switch players in and out of that roster and maintain high standards so long as they can keep those two guys.

Conley plays an important role as a secondary creator on offense. He is the hardest piece to replace. The rest of their offense is all predicated on filling your roster 1 through 4 with shooters around Gobert -- due to his limited offensive game, a game-plan I would like to see Boston imitate with Rob Williams. Those are all replaceable pieces.

So yeah, even if Utah has a downturn in fortunes and needs to revamp their roster, I would feel good about their prospects so long as they can keep Mitchell + Gobert together. If you lose 1 of those 2 guys, everything falls apart. But if you can keep them together, a lot can chance while keeping standards sky high.

---------------------------

On another note, I'd love to see Utah upgrade Jordan Clarkson. He had a great shooting start to the season last year but he has come back to Earth in the second half of last season and this season. This is the real Clarkson and it is not good enough. Utah needs a better backup guard.

I love the idea of Utah imitating the backcourts of the late 1980s early 90s Pistons or late 70s early 80s Sonics. Where Detroit had Zeke, Dumars and Vinnie Johnson. The Sonics had Gus Williams, Dennis Johnson and Freddie Brown. Three dynamic ball-handling guards who could all score and shouldered most of the offensive burden for their teams.

I love the way those three guards could all play alongside one another and could switch roles from lead guard to off guard playing with or without the basketball.

I see Utah having a similar situation with Conley, Mitchell and Clarkson. That this trio too shoulders most of the offensive responsibility for their team. I like Conley and Mitchell but Clarkson is not good enough for them to win a title.

As Chuck Daly used to say after they lost Vinnie Johnson, paraphrasing here "I used to only 2 of my 3 guards to play well to win. Now I need both of guards two play well every night to have a chance to win." That is what I see happening with Utah. Clarkson's drop-off (reversion to normal) has been like losing a player and has made them over-reliant on their two starting guards in a way that is unhealthy for any team that has playoff dreams. They need to replace Clarkson somehow to make that next step and win a title like those Sonics and Pistons teams did (in how they built their offenses around a 3 guard attack).

[slamtheking]

JKJB.

Ok, I’d accept Luka, Giannis, or Jokic. But since they’re not on the table,

JKJB.

I'd take Durant or Embiid too. still a pretty short list

[Who]

Mitchell is unhappy on a winning Jazz team so he wants to go East to a .500 Celtics team in Boston? That strikes me as implausible.

Have you ever lived in Utah in your 20s? Life elements exist.

And would you rather play with Tatum, or Gobert?

Yeah, there was talk a while ago about Mitchell wanting to play in a bigger market. That he felt he was not getting the credit / respect he deserved -- from fans, the media, award recognition, perhaps sponsorship opportunities.

That seems to be the crux of it for Mitchell = why he is unsettled.

It is not about being unhappy with the Jazz. Nothing to do with basketball. Off the court reasons like todd_days_41 said. Non-basketball reasons. Life reasons.

So to come to Boston and get the opportunity to play with a star like Jayson Tatum, that is a huge opportunity for a guy looking for a fresh start somewhere new. Boston checks that larger market need for him. And Tatum gives him a running mate that makes sure Mitchell doesn't end up on a 25-35 win team that never competes for anything. Build around those two stars and you got a good chance to build a title contender in the near future. That is a highly attractive opportunity.

[LilRip]

Mitchell + Conley for Brown + Smart… Who says no?

[todd_days_41]

Mitchell + Conley for Brown + Smart… Who says no?

Ainge pats Stevens on the head with a smirk and hangs up.

[droopdog7]

 OG Ananoby and Scottie Barnes and One First for JKJB

Timelord
Scottie Barnes
Tatum
Ananoby
Smart

That looks like an extremely well balanced team on paper. Defensive Monster. And Barnes passing ability and unselfish play would change the dynamic completely.

That is an interesting idea. I am not sure what to think of it from Toronto's perspective. Would I rather build around:

(1) VanVleet + Jaylen + Siakam
(2) VanVleet + S.Barnes + Anunoby + Siakam

Strangely enough, I am not sure Jaylen is an upgrade for them. I say strangely because Anunoby is more of an above average starter than a star and Scottie Barnes is an encouraging prospect more than a certified star. Still, though ... something feels off.

I wonder = if I am Toronto and I consolidate by trading those two guys, I expect a bigger star back in return than Jaylen Brown. I want more. Jaylen isn't enough.

I'll tell you right now, Tor fan isn't trading Barnes for Tatum, never mind brown.

[todd_days_41]

Mitchell is unhappy on a winning Jazz team so he wants to go East to a .500 Celtics team in Boston? That strikes me as implausible.

Have you ever lived in Utah in your 20s? Life elements exist.

And would you rather play with Tatum, or Gobert?

Yeah, there was talk a while ago about Mitchell wanting to play in a bigger market. That he felt he was not getting the credit / respect he deserved -- from fans, the media, award recognition, perhaps sponsorship opportunities.

That seems to be the crux of it for Mitchell = why he is unsettled.

It is not about being unhappy with the Jazz. Nothing to do with basketball. Off the court reasons like todd_days_41 said. Non-basketball reasons. Life reasons.

So to come to Boston and get the opportunity to play with a star like Jayson Tatum, that is a huge opportunity for a guy looking for a fresh start somewhere new. Boston checks that larger market need for him. And Tatum gives him a running mate that makes sure Mitchell doesn't end up on a 25-35 win team that never competes for anything. Build around those two stars and you got a good chance to build a title contender in the near future. That is a highly attractive opportunity.

On the basketball part, you said you like the future for Jazz with Gobert and Mitchell -- but does Mitchell? Above I think you're starting to argue the other way.... that Tatum would make a clearly preferential running mate to Gobert.

And one element I like about a Brown-plus-whatever-for-Mitchell swap? Ainge may not insist on Robert Williams, as Rudy is already planted in the middle. Mitchell, Tatum, and Timelord is a legitimate contenting team, no matter how many assets the Cs need to ship to get Donovan.

[PhoSita]

Mitchell is unhappy on a winning Jazz team so he wants to go East to a .500 Celtics team in Boston? That strikes me as implausible.

Have you ever lived in Utah in your 20s? Life elements exist.

And would you rather play with Tatum, or Gobert?

I mean, let's start this by saying that I have no idea what it's like to be an NBA player.  No frame of reference at all.

That said, I think I'd rather play with the guy who has anchored a top defense and whose team has had a really good record for a few years running now.  Say what you will about Gobert but his teams win a lot of games in the regular season.  Tatum has a better track record in the playoffs, but these days his team is not really in the running to be a factor in the playoffs thanks to being a play-in squad ....

So from a competitive standpoint I just don't see how Utah is a worse situation than Boston.  Also, not for nothing but Gobert takes a lot fewer shots than Tatum and doesn't need the ball in his hands as much.  Seems relevant for a ball dominant guard like Mitchell.


As for life stuff, I've never been to Utah but I'm sure it's the pits for a 20-something guy, especially a black guy (Utah being white as the driven snow and very religious).

That said, I don't really see how the fact that Utah is probably a boring place to live would naturally lead to the conclusion that Boston, of all places, would be Mitchell's preferred landing spot.  Boston is also very white and is not known for being a super fun place to spend your 20s.

[PhoSita]

Yeah, there was talk a while ago about Mitchell wanting to play in a bigger market. That he felt he was not getting the credit / respect he deserved -- from fans, the media, award recognition, perhaps sponsorship opportunities.

That seems to be the crux of it for Mitchell = why he is unsettled.

when have we ever seen a guy who is unhappy with being in a smaller market agitate to leave his team and ... come to Boston?

you could point to Gordon Hayward, but I think it's fair to say that the personal connection with Brad Stevens was a big deal there.  also Hayward is from Indiana, so for him Boston perhaps genuinely felt like a big market.  he also probably didn't feel like Boston's lack of diversity was as much of an issue from a cultural standpoint.

Kyrie Irving comes to mind, but I think in retrospect it's especially easy to see that he never really saw Boston as a long term spot, it was just a stepping stone for him to get to New York.


speaking of New York ... Mitchell grew up in New York.  he's a Mets fan.  I doubt very much that Boston seems like a large market to him, even though it is without a doubt a higher profile place than Salt Lake City.

[Atzar]

Yeah, there was talk a while ago about Mitchell wanting to play in a bigger market. That he felt he was not getting the credit / respect he deserved -- from fans, the media, award recognition, perhaps sponsorship opportunities.

That seems to be the crux of it for Mitchell = why he is unsettled.

when have we ever seen a guy who is unhappy with being in a smaller market agitate to leave his team and ... come to Boston?

you could point to Gordon Hayward, but I think it's fair to say that the personal connection with Brad Stevens was a big deal there.  also Hayward is from Indiana, so for him Boston perhaps genuinely felt like a big market.  he also probably didn't feel like Boston's lack of diversity was as much of an issue from a cultural standpoint.

Kyrie Irving comes to mind, but I think in retrospect it's especially easy to see that he never really saw Boston as a long term spot, it was just a stepping stone for him to get to New York.


speaking of New York ... Mitchell grew up in New York.  he's a Mets fan.  I doubt very much that Boston seems like a large market to him, even though it is without a doubt a higher profile place than Salt Lake City.

Eh, I don't think Kyrie saw Boston as a stepping stone... at least not at first.  I think he legit wanted to be here during that first year, when the honeymoon phase was still fresh.  Then we hit some adversity, he couldn't handle the Boston media well, fans cooled on him some, kids on the roster didn't step to his rhythm quite the way he wanted, and he decided the grass was greener someplace else.  He's a flake.  But he did like Boston when things were going well. 

As for Mitchell, apparently he's fairly close to Tatum and Brown.  So if Boston really has a chance with him, that would be the reason.  Trading one of them for him would seem to defeat the purpose from his point of view, but we certainly aren't getting him for anything less. 

[todd_days_41]

Yeah, there was talk a while ago about Mitchell wanting to play in a bigger market. That he felt he was not getting the credit / respect he deserved -- from fans, the media, award recognition, perhaps sponsorship opportunities.

That seems to be the crux of it for Mitchell = why he is unsettled.

when have we ever seen a guy who is unhappy with being in a smaller market agitate to leave his team and ... come to Boston?

you could point to Gordon Hayward, but I think it's fair to say that the personal connection with Brad Stevens was a big deal there.  also Hayward is from Indiana, so for him Boston perhaps genuinely felt like a big market.  he also probably didn't feel like Boston's lack of diversity was as much of an issue from a cultural standpoint.

Kyrie Irving comes to mind, but I think in retrospect it's especially easy to see that he never really saw Boston as a long term spot, it was just a stepping stone for him to get to New York.


speaking of New York ... Mitchell grew up in New York.  he's a Mets fan.  I doubt very much that Boston seems like a large market to him, even though it is without a doubt a higher profile place than Salt Lake City.

Feels like some serious hair splitting here. It's not hard to imagine Boston being on a list of destinations Mitchell could prefer to Utah if he doesn't like their direction. Might he prefer LA or NY? Sure, but by the time this could come around, the Basketball piece combined with proximity to home may be a solid combo in Boston.