Idea: Brogdon for Smart, Timelord, Romeo

[#1P4P]

Brogdon's one of my preferred targets to be the PG of this team and one of the few young players I'd want this team to acquire at this point. I'd replace Smart with Fournier and would seriously consider replacing Romeo for a future 1st and/or TimeLord with 2 future 1sts.

What Smart detractors don't understand about him is that Marcus aside from being elite defensively and the versatility to guard 1-4 well, he is the leader of the team, tone setter, and is reliable to not shrink in the moment regardless of it being the regular season or playoffs, 1st quarter or 4th quarter/overtime, up 20 or down 20. People faun over the Joe Harris and the other nice Regular Season stat players that become borderline unplayable in most playoff games especially on the road and in crunch time; and underestimate the players like Smart that come up big in those same moments.

The Celtics brass understands that about Smart, which is why Stevens and Udoka have mentioned him as part of the core of the team. Rick Carlisle's going to get a shot with this roster unless he deems a player isn't a good fit for his system.

[Muzzy66]

Brogdon doesn't push anyone over the top.
He is a lesser player than Smart.

Man, people really overrate Marcus Smart so much in this city. Brogdon is better at pretty much everything as a basketball player than Marcus Smart outside of defense (and even after Smarts defense letdown last season, that might be questionable now). Brogdon is a solid defender. Maybe not former all nba but he’s not awful. And considering he literally better at everything else (shooting/rebounding/playmaking/FT shooting/3 pt shooting) and is signed longer term to a good deal, I honestly don’t get the hesitation.

Romeo Langford is a nobody and has zero value.

Timelord is an expiring player who is oft injured and not start Lee quality because he literally can’t play more than 20 mins a game or otherwise his body will shatter. I’m not even positive he starts this year with Horford back either. Also don’t think the Cs want to pay him.

he's definitely not.  you may not think much of him but the kid has shown he can play NBA quality D.  I suspect him attending training camp fully healthy for the first time will improve his game noticeably.   He's not a throw in for a deal to dump him --> that would be Edwards.

Based off what? The 10 games he was healthy in two years? The guy can’t shoot. He can’t score. Had some nice defensive glimpses. He’s going on year three. Langford should not be a hold up to getting a better player on the roster lol.

Both the eye test and advanced metrics back the argument that Langford is a really strong defender, and a 50 game sample size is sizeable enough to draw conclusions from.

He still hasn't had a healthy preseason. Assuming he does later this year, I think it could really benefit him. On the other hand, he may never stay healthy enough for it to matter. I'd be happy to trade him, but he doesn't have zero value

Hasn't had a healthy preseason?  He hasn't had a healthy ANY-season.  The guy is a walking injury.  I'd be willing to take a chance on a walking injury if he had sky high potential and actually looked like an NBA player...but he doesn't.  At all. 

Even if you claim he plays quality defence (which I've still yet to see with any kind of consistency) how much value has there ever been for guys in the NBA who play good D and can't do anything else?

The obsession people have with Langford is utterly illogical.  People are clinging to this guy why?  Because there is a CHANCE that if can can stay healthy and get some reps then MAYBE he could develop into a competent one-dimensional role player off the bench?

The guy can't shoot.  His ball handling is horrendous.  He has zero playmaking skills that I've seen.  When has anybody on earth ever placed this much value on a well established one-dimensional bench player in his prime? Let alone a oft-injured prospect who we hope one day might become a one-dimensional bench player.   At the very least to have any significant value al all he would need to add a consistent three point shot to complement his defence - he's shown no indication that he's capable of that so far, as he's shot 22% from three and 35% from the field thus far.  These numbers make Marcus Smart look like Ray Allen.

The kid is a waste of a roster spot, and is hardly irreplaceable.  There are about half a billion other one-dimensional defensive guards that we could very easily replace him with at any price for minimal cost. Send him where he belongs, in the D-League.

If you're responding like this to me I'm not even sure you read my post.

I wrote "he may never stay healthy enough for it to matter" and that I'm happy to move him

Sorry, I should have been more clear.  The part in bold I was responding to your post.  Everything after that I was just an in general response - because a lot of people here seem to be obsessed with the guy and I just don't see it.

I have re-edited my post to make this more clear. 

[Muzzy66]

Brogdon's one of my preferred targets to be the PG of this team and one of the few young players I'd want this team to acquire at this point. I'd replace Smart with Fournier and would seriously consider replacing Romeo for a future 1st and/or TimeLord with 2 future 1sts.

What Smart detractors don't understand about him is that Marcus aside from being elite defensively and the versatility to guard 1-4 well, he is the leader of the team, tone setter, and is reliable to not shrink in the moment regardless of it being the regular season or playoffs, 1st quarter or 4th quarter/overtime, up 20 or down 20. People faun over the Joe Harris and the other nice Regular Season stat players that become borderline unplayable in most playoff games especially on the road and in crunch time; and underestimate the players like Smart that come up big in those same moments.

The Celtics brass understands that about Smart, which is why Stevens and Udoka have mentioned him as part of the core of the team. Rick Carlisle's going to get a shot with this roster unless he deems a player isn't a good fit for his system.

The part in bold I strongly disagree with.

One of my biggest issues with Smart is the amount of critical playoff games he has lost us (or at the very least played a big role in losing us) with his horrendously bad late game decision making.  Be it bad unforced turnovers, stupid fouls or idiotic forced low-percentage shots he's often screwing up in massive ways at crucial points in the games. 

For a guy who's name is "Smart" he really doesn't use his brain a hell of a lot in crucial parts of games.  He plays extremely wrecklessly entirely off impulse - and that makes his style of play extremely volatile.  There is no consistency - he's either making big heroic plays that win you the game or he's making utterly bonehead plays that cost you it.  There is no in between. 

This is why I absolutely CANNOT trust him at the end of meaningful games.  You just don't know what you're going to get.

[Moranis]

No. Why is everyone trying to trade our 3rd and 4th best players ( Rob and Marcus)?  We become much worse defensively.

Since when are Smart and Williams Boston's 3rd and 4th best players.  Horford is still clearly a better player than either of them (and is significantly more valuable as a player).  I think you could pretty reasonably argue that Fournier is better than both of them as well.  Whereas, Brogdon would pretty clearly be the 3rd best player on the Celtics as he is significantly better than either Smart or Williams, he is signed for longer, and is just a better fit given his good shooter, passing, etc. while still playing + defense. 

Boston should do this trade every single day of the week.  Frankly, they should try to get Turner back as well who Indy might not want to pay anyway

Brogdon, Turner for Smart, Thompson, R. Williams, Langford


Boston

PG - Brogdon, Pritchard, Edwards
SG - Brown, Fournier
SF - Tatum, Nesmith, Ojeleye
PF - Horford, Parker, G. Williams
C - Turner, Brown, Kornet

A few minutes in, you bring in Fournier for Horford or Turner and go a bit smaller, but I like the size to start.

My conclusions are based upon projecting forward the next 2-4 years. I project that Rob Williams will continue to get better. I project the same for Romeo Langford.  Romeo is on the cusp of  being our best multi positional defender.  For Rob, it is statistically supported. For Romeo, it is gut/eyeball test. 

As for Smart, I am fine trading him and future picks for Brogdon, but not giving up contract controlled young guys who are just starting to blossom. That is just dumb every day and twice on Sunday.  Horford is at an age where he should not be expected to play more than 20 -25 minutes a game.  You have no other center besides TT if you make that trade (Moses Brown is a joke), and TT just doesn't blend well with our team.

Fournier is not on the roster, he is a free agent. And I am skeptical we will be re-signing him.  But yes, if he came back, he would be better currently than Smart and Rob. Although a case could be made that if Rob Williams is healthy, he would still be our 3rd best player.

No guarantee that any of those players on the roster in the next 2 to 4 years.  And if you stay with the status quo of a mid-tier type playoff team, then there is no guarantee Tatum or Brown will want to stay when their contracts are up.

And I can almost assure you that Brogdon is going to be better than Smart over the next 2 to 4 years as he is significantly better right now and is still in his 20's.  Williams would have to make an incredible leap and actually be able to play more than 20 mpg without getting hurt for him to have any sort of real value as well. 

I keep hearing from this board that Boston is close, that Boston is a contender, yet time and time again, people don't want to make moves like this that actually make the team better.  If the team is close, then getting better next year should be a no brainer, and acquiring Brogdon will absolutely make the team better.

Each poster has their own idea about how close or not close the C's are.  You are one of the strongest voices on the issue of closeness, constantly arguing that the C's are not at all close due to a deficiency in talent.  With that view, do you really think it's wise to jettison Smart, Robert Williams and Romeo for 29 year old Brogdon, with significant injury history? 

I have no issue with the C's trying to attain a PG. Has to be a good deal for both teams though...

fwiw, I am definitely a fan of Brogdon. But to get crazy over him with fit in mind is not wise.

Sure because Brogdon is still young enough and is BY FAR the best player in that trade.  Smart is a role player with an injury history as well.  Williams and Langford are both super injury prone as well.  Trading some role players for a clear upgrade should always be done.

Aren’t the medical prognoses on Brogdon worse than Langford and Williams? Isn’t that why his stock dropped in the draft and why the Bucks dumped him?

The Bucks couldn't afford him with Giannis, Middleton, and Bledsoe so they let him go.  Williams also dropped significantly because of medicals and here we are with him missing half his games.  We've seen Brogdon over several years now.  He will probably miss around 20 games, but that really isn't much different than Smart, Langford, or Williams at this point either, and Brogdon is quite simply a better player than those 3 and it isn't all that close at this point.  It isn't like 50/40/90 players that play + defense grow on trees.  They are hard to find.

I think the Pacers might do it as they need some younger players on the squad and I'm not sure LeVert and Brogdon fit all that well together, whereas Smart is a better fit with LeVert.

[Boss_D]

Timelord for Mo Bamba.. let Mo Bamba to play 4,

[gouki88]

Timelord for Mo Bamba.. let Mo Bamba to play 4,

What else is coming our way?