Gordon Hayward Substraction by Addition

[Donoghus]

That doesn't validate the notion that he's a net negative on the court, despite his struggles.

Statistics validate that he is a net negative on the court.

Some of them do, that's true.  I think there are confounding variables with things like RPM, for example.

I don't think it's as easy as saying that he's always a positive or always a negative, either.


There are some games where he looks like his old self (e.g. Minnesota).

There are other games where he really struggles to score but does a lot of good things out there that help the team (e.g. last night against the Nets).

There are other games where the team could really use his help and he doesn't provide much (e.g. against the Warriors).


That kind of inconsistency is frustrating.  It means he can't be more than a lesser supporting player if this team wants to do good things this year.  It's also completely within the realm of what you'd expect to see from a player recovering from a major injury.

I think it's overly simplistic to look at minutes played or his +/- to determine how detrimental he is the the team's play. 

Obviously, he's been underwhelming and seems to be a lightning rod but I think its a bit foolish to single him as the cause of the team's woes.  This team's "struggles" can be chalked up to a variety of factors and I don't necessarily agree that Hayward's play is culprit #1. 

People are using him as the whipping boy which is disingenuous.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Do the people hating on Hayward not watch the games?

Serious question.

Last night against the Nets, I thought he was really good, despite not hitting shots.

He moves without the ball, keeps the ball moving, finds other guys with nifty passes, stays in front of guards and wings alike, rebounds, competes for loose balls ...

His inconsistent and at times tentative scoring is an issue, but he's doing good things out there.



I'm curious what the overlap is between people who think Rozier is really good and people who think Hayward is terrible and shouldn't play.

Thank-you for this Phosita. You can tell he is still struggling with his rhythm as a scorer and his place on offense. But he is a really good basketball player that consistently makes offensive plays that puts the defense at a disadvantage, normally resulting in a team score.

[PhoSita]

But his lack of confidence in driving to the hoop with the goal to finish is sad to watch.

I agree that it's sad and frustrating, but I haven't given up hope.

Nothing I've ever heard or read about Hayward makes me think that he's the sort of player who won't be able to come back from this injury.

Worst case scenario, I think, is he never gets back to Utah Hayward but he turns himself into a solid role player swiss-army-knife wing, sort of like what Grant Hill did in the last years of his career.


Grant Hill is actually an interesting comparison given that he also dealt with ankle injuries.  Of course, he was a far superior player to Hayward before his injuries.

[Fafnir]

I'm hopeful because I think his defense has gotten a lot better as the season has gone on. Hopefully his overall game follows.

He's clearly not going to be be what he was this year, team has to adjust add find a winning formula with what reality is. He moved to the bench without complaint and his minutes are likely in the low 20s until he earns more.

The heckling is just silly, I don't understand what makes people so miserable to do crap like that. But then again trolling on twitter and sock puppeting on the internet is rampant in all walks of life so I guess its just a human impulse when you are anonymous.

[ozgod]

Do the people hating on Hayward not watch the games?

Serious question.

Last night against the Nets, I thought he was really good, despite not hitting shots.

He moves without the ball, keeps the ball moving, finds other guys with nifty passes, stays in front of guards and wings alike, rebounds, competes for loose balls ...

His inconsistent and at times tentative scoring is an issue, but he's doing good things out there.



I'm curious what the overlap is between people who think Rozier is really good and people who think Hayward is terrible and shouldn't play.

From some of the comments in the game thread, it looked like some people just looked at the box score and judged him on that.

Others probably saw those good things but keep thinking "but he's costing us $30m we want more than that".

[Hank Finkel]

Is there any doubt we would be better off without him?

I think there is, yeah.

Just removing Hayward in a vaccum we probably arent better, but he does absoluetly kill us some nights. I don't even really blame him, his leg snapped in half and thats gonna take a while to  come back from. I wouldn't trade him, because I don't think you could without giving up assets to move him. But also because I think with a full offseason he will come back next year much closer to what he was in Utah. For this seaosn however he needs his role reduced, he is a good passer but it deosnt help that uch if he can't penetrate the paint, and is scared to shoot. Honestly give more play making to Brown and Tatum, or trade Rozier for a better initiator.

I've said this before, but this year he's been almost identical to Evan Turner his last year in Boston.

Stats

That's not an all-star player, but it's a useful player on a Stevens' team.

It’s amazing that we paid all that money for an Evan Turner clone.  It’s definately disheartening to watch Hayward play.  He is not helping this team right now and the wasted money to boot makes it even harder to swallow.  As good as Horford has been for the money is how bad Hayward has been.  I don’t know the answer right now but my feeling is the young guys deserve the minutes.  They are the future not Hayward. 

[keevsnick]

Is there any doubt we would be better off without him?

I think there is, yeah.

Just removing Hayward in a vaccum we probably arent better, but he does absoluetly kill us some nights. I don't even really blame him, his leg snapped in half and thats gonna take a while to  come back from. I wouldn't trade him, because I don't think you could without giving up assets to move him. But also because I think with a full offseason he will come back next year much closer to what he was in Utah. For this seaosn however he needs his role reduced, he is a good passer but it deosnt help that uch if he can't penetrate the paint, and is scared to shoot. Honestly give more play making to Brown and Tatum, or trade Rozier for a better initiator.

I've said this before, but this year he's been almost identical to Evan Turner his last year in Boston.

Stats

That's not an all-star player, but it's a useful player on a Stevens' team.

Sure, but that really just kind of proves my point. Evan Turner would not be playing much, maybe not at all on this team. Because unlike when he was on this team, we have higher aspirations and better players that require a higher base level of play to get minutes. Gordon is a good player, but he's taking minutes away from guys who are currently playing better than him. And ya, the stats are very similar to Turner. But to me that's kind of damming, because I don't think Evan Turner even in his one "good" year he had in Boston was ever really that good.


Agsin, not syaing we bench him r take him ot of the rotation or anything ebcasue long term its in our interets that he gets minutes and works out the rust, but short term we could make soem tweaks to his role, crunch time minutes, ect.

[jambr380]

I can see Hayward's stats are similar, but his impact on the game just doesn't seem to be the same. Perhaps it's because Turner was a major ball-handler on the team while Hayward doesn't get nearly the same opportunities (I would love to see this change).

Honestly, I think the team's biggest 'issue' is Morris. I realize that sounds outrageous to say as he has been one of our best players, but guys like Hayward, Brown, and even Rozier are not getting the necessary reps to succeed and Morris is one of the main 'culprits'. Who here is genuinely happy to see Morris take shot after shot at the expense of these three? Morris provides a toughness and his ability to hit a contested shot is incredibly impressive, but his ball movement leaves something to be desired on a team that prides itself on it.

[Silky]

I can see Hayward's stats are similar, but his impact on the game just doesn't seem to be the same. Perhaps it's because Turner was a major ball-handler on the team while Hayward doesn't get nearly the same opportunities (I would love to see this change).

Honestly, I think the team's biggest 'issue' is Morris. I realize that sounds outrageous to say as he has been one of our best players, but guys like Hayward, Brown, and even Rozier are not getting the necessary reps to succeed and Morris is one of the main 'culprits'. Who here is genuinely happy to see Morris take shot after shot at the expense of these three? Morris provides a toughness and his ability to hit a contested shot is incredibly impressive, but his ball movement leaves something to be desired on a team that prides itself on it.

Hayward has a higher usage and more dribbles per possession than turner did

[jambr380]

I can see Hayward's stats are similar, but his impact on the game just doesn't seem to be the same. Perhaps it's because Turner was a major ball-handler on the team while Hayward doesn't get nearly the same opportunities (I would love to see this change).

Honestly, I think the team's biggest 'issue' is Morris. I realize that sounds outrageous to say as he has been one of our best players, but guys like Hayward, Brown, and even Rozier are not getting the necessary reps to succeed and Morris is one of the main 'culprits'. Who here is genuinely happy to see Morris take shot after shot at the expense of these three? Morris provides a toughness and his ability to hit a contested shot is incredibly impressive, but his ball movement leaves something to be desired on a team that prides itself on it.

Hayward has a higher usage and more dribbles per possession than turner did

That is crazy! I have watched the vast majority of Celtics games for years and I never would have guessed that. Despite his lack of outside shooting, Evan Turner seemed to have much more control over the Cs offense, especially in his 2nd year when he wasn't starting. Perhaps Evan Turner was just much louder.

I realize I probably hold Hayward to a higher standard due to his enormous contract, but the dude just seems invisible at times. And, to be fair, I feel the same way about (probably my favorite player) Jaylen Brown vs a guy like Marcus Smart who leaves his fingerprints all over an NBA game. I guess Hayward really is a quiet assassin.

[tenn_smoothie]

Is there any doubt we would be better off without him? This year for sure. Probably the next two years as well.

 I absolutely would attach 1 first to Hayward to dump him and possibly two future Celtics firsts for Paul Milsaps expiring contract.

 It's an issue that Stevens is force feeding this guy minutes when other players clearly deserve those minutes and would contribute to winning more than The Gamer Gordon.

Only thing that surpasses the hate for Gordon Hayward around here is the love for Kyrie Irving.
Give the guy time.

[KGBirdBias]

Is there any way Utah would take Hayward back....

To Celtics - Favors, Crowder and Sefolosha (expiring)

To Jazz - Hayward

[Monkhouse]

Is there any way Utah would take Hayward back....

To Celtics - Favors, Crowder and Sefolosha (expiring)

To Jazz - Hayward