The effect of carrying Hayward

[Eddie20]

From Tomek Kordylewski :

Let's put Gordon Hayward's 30/9/8 in 30 minutes into perspective. He is:

🔘 the first Celtics player ever to get that off the bench,
🔘 the first NBA player since 1993 to get that off the bench,
🔘 only the third player in NBA history to get that in 30 minutes of less.


The last stat is not just off the bench. That’s 3rd player, period. The other two are Giannis and Westbrook.

Interesting, but I’m curious, too. Havlicek did it 13 times, as early as 1968. He didn’t come off the bench in any of those games?

Havlicek played a ton of minutes so I’m not sure he had many opportunities to accomplish that in 30 minutes of less.


Also, when are we going to give Hayward credit? It appears that now we’re praising Irving’s pep talk, passes, and willing Hayward’s shots to go in, as well as Smart and Morris giving him a hard practice and Stevens’ playcalling more than the player. So when Hayward plays bad he’s killing the team, when he plays well others deserve the accolades. Got it.

Are we really ready to proclaim that Hayward is totally back after one game? I think a lot of people will be disappointed if that performance is expected every game.

Hayward deserved all the criticism he was getting to start the year. Yes, he was coming back from injury, but he was pretty terrible, wasn't meshing with anybody, and we were losing. If Hayward consistently begins putting up 20/5/5 on solid percentages, I think all of Celtics nation will breathe a huge sigh of relief. We have a lot of money invested in him and have already lost an important year. He needs to be at least our 2nd best player.

I don’t think anybody said he was totally back. To suggest that would be nearly as ridiculous as expecting him to perform at his Utah Jazz level during his first 20 games this year after sustaining  his injury and only playing 5 minutes of high level basketball since early May of 2017.

As for the 20/5/5 on solid percentages...he’s at 5.5 rpg and 3.5 apg for the year, so that part is a lock. Since coming off the bench for 6 games (which is 28.6% of his total games played) he’s at 47.1/39.1/1.000, so that’s 2 out of the 3 things you’ve asked of him.

Now to the scoring...he’s not going to average 20 ppg. Our team is way too talented, his usage is going to be much lower than it was in Utah, and he’s just not going to have the attempts to get 20 ppg. But you know what? That’s perfectly fine. He doesn’t need to score 20 ppg for us to be a title contender. He’s at 13.8 ppg as a reserve and I expect that number to slowly rise to around 16-18 ppg. Look at the scoring numbers of KG (-3.6), Pierce (-5.4), and Allen (-9.0) during their first season in Boston together vs what they did the year prior as the blueprint that sacrificing individual scoring numbers for the benefit of the team pays dividends.

[jambr380]

From Tomek Kordylewski :

Let's put Gordon Hayward's 30/9/8 in 30 minutes into perspective. He is:

🔘 the first Celtics player ever to get that off the bench,
🔘 the first NBA player since 1993 to get that off the bench,
🔘 only the third player in NBA history to get that in 30 minutes of less.


The last stat is not just off the bench. That’s 3rd player, period. The other two are Giannis and Westbrook.

Interesting, but I’m curious, too. Havlicek did it 13 times, as early as 1968. He didn’t come off the bench in any of those games?

Havlicek played a ton of minutes so I’m not sure he had many opportunities to accomplish that in 30 minutes of less.


Also, when are we going to give Hayward credit? It appears that now we’re praising Irving’s pep talk, passes, and willing Hayward’s shots to go in, as well as Smart and Morris giving him a hard practice and Stevens’ playcalling more than the player. So when Hayward plays bad he’s killing the team, when he plays well others deserve the accolades. Got it.

Are we really ready to proclaim that Hayward is totally back after one game? I think a lot of people will be disappointed if that performance is expected every game.

Hayward deserved all the criticism he was getting to start the year. Yes, he was coming back from injury, but he was pretty terrible, wasn't meshing with anybody, and we were losing. If Hayward consistently begins putting up 20/5/5 on solid percentages, I think all of Celtics nation will breathe a huge sigh of relief. We have a lot of money invested in him and have already lost an important year. He needs to be at least our 2nd best player.

I don’t think anybody said he was totally back. To suggest that would be nearly as ridiculous as expecting him to perform at his Utah Jazz level during his first 20 games this year after sustaining  his injury and only playing 5 minutes of high level basketball since early May of 2017.

As for the 20/5/5 on solid percentages...he’s at 5.5 rpg and 3.5 apg for the year, so that part is a lock. Since coming off the bench for 6 games (which is 28.6% of his total games played) he’s at 47.1/39.1/1.000, so that’s 2 out of the 3 things you’ve asked of him.

Now to the scoring...he’s not going to average 20 ppg. Our team is way too talented, his usage is going to be much lower than it was in Utah, and he’s just not going to have the attempts to get 20 ppg. But you know what? That’s perfectly fine. He doesn’t need to score 20 ppg for us to be a title contender. He’s at 13.8 ppg as a reserve and I expect that number to slowly rise to around 16-18 ppg. Look at the scoring numbers of KG (-3.6), Pierce (-5.4), and Allen (-9.0) during their first season in Boston together vs what they did the year prior as the blueprint that sacrificing individual scoring numbers for the benefit of the team pays dividends.

I'm certainly not here to throw Hayward under the bus - of course I want him to be the all-star he once was. I just think we may be prematurely celebrating his grand return.

Obviously scoring isn't everything (or even the main thing for a number of players), but he is still only a shade above 11 ppg on the year. As you note, players often need to make sacrifices for the good of the team, but this isn't the 07-08 Cs; Hayward was given an opportunity and frankly blew it (and dragged Brown down with him). He literally just scored above 20 points for the first time this season. While it was a great game, the hope when we signed him was that he would be a Paul George/Jimmy Butler level player. While he showed that production in one game, we are going to need a lot more from him.

I noted in another thread that Hayward had one rebound last game where he jumped over everybody in the lane, grabbed the ball with force, and showed no fear in landing. It was the highest I had seen him jump. That was the moment I knew he was finally feeling more comfortable. And, to be our best, we need the return of All-Star Hayward, not just pretty good Hayward. It's fantastic that he appears to still have it in him!

[ozgod]

From Tomek Kordylewski :

Let's put Gordon Hayward's 30/9/8 in 30 minutes into perspective. He is:

🔘 the first Celtics player ever to get that off the bench,
🔘 the first NBA player since 1993 to get that off the bench,
🔘 only the third player in NBA history to get that in 30 minutes of less.


The last stat is not just off the bench. That’s 3rd player, period. The other two are Giannis and Westbrook.

Interesting, but I’m curious, too. Havlicek did it 13 times, as early as 1968. He didn’t come off the bench in any of those games?

Havlicek played a ton of minutes so I’m not sure he had many opportunities to accomplish that in 30 minutes of less.


Also, when are we going to give Hayward credit? It appears that now we’re praising Irving’s pep talk, passes, and willing Hayward’s shots to go in, as well as Smart and Morris giving him a hard practice and Stevens’ playcalling more than the player. So when Hayward plays bad he’s killing the team, when he plays well others deserve the accolades. Got it.

Are we really ready to proclaim that Hayward is totally back after one game? I think a lot of people will be disappointed if that performance is expected every game.

Hayward deserved all the criticism he was getting to start the year. Yes, he was coming back from injury, but he was pretty terrible, wasn't meshing with anybody, and we were losing. If Hayward consistently begins putting up 20/5/5 on solid percentages, I think all of Celtics nation will breathe a huge sigh of relief. We have a lot of money invested in him and have already lost an important year. He needs to be at least our 2nd best player.

I don’t think anybody said he was totally back. To suggest that would be nearly as ridiculous as expecting him to perform at his Utah Jazz level during his first 20 games this year after sustaining  his injury and only playing 5 minutes of high level basketball since early May of 2017.

As for the 20/5/5 on solid percentages...he’s at 5.5 rpg and 3.5 apg for the year, so that part is a lock. Since coming off the bench for 6 games (which is 28.6% of his total games played) he’s at 47.1/39.1/1.000, so that’s 2 out of the 3 things you’ve asked of him.

Now to the scoring...he’s not going to average 20 ppg. Our team is way too talented, his usage is going to be much lower than it was in Utah, and he’s just not going to have the attempts to get 20 ppg. But you know what? That’s perfectly fine. He doesn’t need to score 20 ppg for us to be a title contender. He’s at 13.8 ppg as a reserve and I expect that number to slowly rise to around 16-18 ppg. Look at the scoring numbers of KG (-3.6), Pierce (-5.4), and Allen (-9.0) during their first season in Boston together vs what they did the year prior as the blueprint that sacrificing individual scoring numbers for the benefit of the team pays dividends.

Agree. I've been saying this for a while, you can't look at their stat lines and compare them from the year before because there's too many scorers on this team. Everyone is going to regress (except maybe Kyrie since he's our biggest volume shooter) if everyone is to get an opportunity.

You mention Garnett, Pierce and Allen, here's their stats from 2007-08 when they won the championship compared to their individual stats from the year before when they played for different teams:

Code: [Select]

Paul Pierce
Team Season Min PPG FGA Usage
BOS 2006-07 37.0 25.0 18.5 30.7%
BOS 2007-08 35.9 19.6 13.7 24.8%

Kevin Garnett
Team Season Min PPG FGA Usage
MIN 2006-07 39.4 22.4 17.6 27.4%
BOS 2007-08 32.8 18.8 13.8 25.5%

Ray Allen
Team Season Min PPG FGA Usage
SEA 2006-07 40.3 26.4 21.0 29.5%
BOS 2007-08 35.9 17.4 13.5 21.6%
This is what sacrificing for the greater good looks like. Pierce, Garnett and Allen all sacrificed their usage %, their minutes, their FGA because they had to, if they were to win a championship they had to be a champion team, not a team of champions. Ray's ppg went from 26 to 17 and he took 8 less shots than he previously did.

That's UBUNTU. That's what our players (and fans) need to accept. Don't compare their average and total stat lines from last year to this year. Look at their efficiency, shooting %s, etc. to see if they are making the most of the touches they have. They're not all going to average 20-5-5, our team is way more loaded this year than last year. This will be more like San Antonio in 2014 where their scoring averages were Parker 16, Duncan 15, Kawhi 13, Ginobili 12, Belinelli 11, Mills 10, and Diaw and Green 9 each.

Also keep in mind that when we signed Hayward the expectation was he was going to be the second scoring option behind IT on a team where our other scorers, other than Al, were Avery Bradley and Jae Crowder. He's got a lot more competition for touches on this team, Morris, Tatum, Brown, Rozier all want/need shots. Certainly he can do better than 10.3ppg but look at his contribution within the flow of the offense. Some nights he's going to be the 30ppg guy, other nights it might be Tatum, or Morris, or Brown.

[mmmmm]

From Tomek Kordylewski :

Let's put Gordon Hayward's 30/9/8 in 30 minutes into perspective. He is:

🔘 the first Celtics player ever to get that off the bench,
🔘 the first NBA player since 1993 to get that off the bench,
🔘 only the third player in NBA history to get that in 30 minutes of less.


The last stat is not just off the bench. That’s 3rd player, period. The other two are Giannis and Westbrook.

Interesting, but I’m curious, too. Havlicek did it 13 times, as early as 1968. He didn’t come off the bench in any of those games?

Havlicek played a ton of minutes so I’m not sure he had many opportunities to accomplish that in 30 minutes of less.


Also, when are we going to give Hayward credit? It appears that now we’re praising Irving’s pep talk, passes, and willing Hayward’s shots to go in, as well as Smart and Morris giving him a hard practice and Stevens’ playcalling more than the player. So when Hayward plays bad he’s killing the team, when he plays well others deserve the accolades. Got it.

Are we really ready to proclaim that Hayward is totally back after one game? I think a lot of people will be disappointed if that performance is expected every game.

Hayward deserved all the criticism he was getting to start the year. Yes, he was coming back from injury, but he was pretty terrible, wasn't meshing with anybody, and we were losing. If Hayward consistently begins putting up 20/5/5 on solid percentages, I think all of Celtics nation will breathe a huge sigh of relief. We have a lot of money invested in him and have already lost an important year. He needs to be at least our 2nd best player.

I don’t think anybody said he was totally back. To suggest that would be nearly as ridiculous as expecting him to perform at his Utah Jazz level during his first 20 games this year after sustaining  his injury and only playing 5 minutes of high level basketball since early May of 2017.

As for the 20/5/5 on solid percentages...he’s at 5.5 rpg and 3.5 apg for the year, so that part is a lock. Since coming off the bench for 6 games (which is 28.6% of his total games played) he’s at 47.1/39.1/1.000, so that’s 2 out of the 3 things you’ve asked of him.

Now to the scoring...he’s not going to average 20 ppg. Our team is way too talented, his usage is going to be much lower than it was in Utah, and he’s just not going to have the attempts to get 20 ppg. But you know what? That’s perfectly fine. He doesn’t need to score 20 ppg for us to be a title contender. He’s at 13.8 ppg as a reserve and I expect that number to slowly rise to around 16-18 ppg. Look at the scoring numbers of KG (-3.6), Pierce (-5.4), and Allen (-9.0) during their first season in Boston together vs what they did the year prior as the blueprint that sacrificing individual scoring numbers for the benefit of the team pays dividends.

Agree. I've been saying this for a while, you can't look at their stat lines and compare them from the year before because there's too many scorers on this team. Everyone is going to regress (except maybe Kyrie since he's our biggest volume shooter) if everyone is to get an opportunity.

You mention Garnett, Pierce and Allen, here's their stats from 2007-08 when they won the championship compared to their individual stats from the year before when they played for different teams:

Code: [Select]

Paul Pierce
Team Season Min PPG FGA Usage
BOS 2006-07 37.0 25.0 18.5 30.7%
BOS 2007-08 35.9 19.6 13.7 24.8%

Kevin Garnett
Team Season Min PPG FGA Usage
MIN 2006-07 39.4 22.4 17.6 27.4%
BOS 2007-08 32.8 18.8 13.8 25.5%

Ray Allen
Team Season Min PPG FGA Usage
SEA 2006-07 40.3 26.4 21.0 29.5%
BOS 2007-08 35.9 17.4 13.5 21.6%
This is what sacrificing for the greater good looks like. Pierce, Garnett and Allen all sacrificed their usage %, their minutes, their FGA because they had to, if they were to win a championship they had to be a champion team, not a team of champions. Ray's ppg went from 26 to 17 and he took 8 less shots than he previously did.

That's UBUNTU. That's what our players (and fans) need to accept. Don't compare their average and total stat lines from last year to this year. Look at their efficiency, shooting %s, etc. to see if they are making the most of the touches they have. They're not all going to average 20-5-5, our team is way more loaded this year than last year. This will be more like San Antonio in 2014 where their scoring averages were Parker 16, Duncan 15, Kawhi 13, Ginobili 12, Belinelli 11, Mills 10, and Diaw and Green 9 each.

Also keep in mind that when we signed Hayward the expectation was he was going to be the second scoring option behind IT on a team where our other scorers, other than Al, were Avery Bradley and Jae Crowder. He's got a lot more competition for touches on this team, Morris, Tatum, Brown, Rozier all want/need shots. Certainly he can do better than 10.3ppg but look at his contribution within the flow of the offense. Some nights he's going to be the 30ppg guy, other nights it might be Tatum, or Morris, or Brown.

Great pair of posts.  I've talked about this same thing in the past and I want to enhance your table with one additional, very important stat:  Scoring Efficiency (TS)

Code: [Select]

Paul Pierce
Team  Season  Min   PPG   FGA  Usage   TS%
BOS  2006-07  37.0  25.0  18.5  30.7%  .571
BOS  2007-08  35.9  19.6  13.7  24.8%  .599

Kevin Garnett
Team  Season  Min   PPG   FGA  Usage   TS%
MIN  2006-07  39.4  22.4  17.6  27.4%  .546
BOS  2007-08  32.8  18.8  13.8  25.5%  .588

Ray Allen
Team  Season  Min   PPG   FGA  Usage   TS%
SEA  2006-07  40.3  26.4  21.0  29.5%  .564
BOS  2007-08  35.9  17.4  13.5  21.6%  .584

So, even though the usage and counting stats dropped for all three guys, their already-great scoring efficiencies all went up.  Significantly.   

[ozgod]

Exactly, TP for adding that