Post Game: Crowder says Stevens needs to hold players more accountable

[vinnie]

I definitely think Stevens knew for the most part what he was getting into and I think he realized it was going to be a lot of losing. However, I also think that he did not realize how hard the losing was going to hit him. I also don't think he realized how big a difference it is coaching at the NBA level and winning the respect of the players. Brad Stevens is a brilliant coach and was amazing at Butler. And, he has always been a winner. That is why I think he is likely to pack his bags in the next year or two. He is going to get some incredible offer from Indiana or another major college team and is likely going to take it. College coaches can control a lot more than they can in the pros and I think in the end that is what Brad Stevens is going to want to do.

[cman88]

Brad hasnt adjusted to the nba game yet either. I dont understand these 10-11 man rotations. its like he thinks its college where you rotate different guys in and out of the lineup.

I also dont think its helping guys like Marcus smart, olynyk develop to be losing minutes to the likes of jameer nelson and brandon bass

[SHAQATTACK]

Brad needs to get tuff.....you can't be a soft all the  time. 

I'm nervous he can motivate ...adults

[Chris22]

Stevens is losing on purpose.

"Developing players"

[Snakehead]

My only complaint with Stevens is his erratic rotations and starting lineups.  Not that it's easy (as said before, it's a team of a similar level of player) but I think it would really help.  And personally I hate seeing something like Olynyk not having a great first half then not playing in the 2nd half at all.

We need a long term mentality.  We can dig up all the posts hating on Doc too, as others have mentioned.  We need to do work on this roster and it won't happen overnight.

Frankly, given how the trade market is now, I'm not that optimistic we can make a trade for a while.  Might take a few seasons or just letting some of our picks play out and develop until they become high level players.

And on another note, I'm not sure the basketball this year is any different than last year except we had the hope of Rondo looming and also (don't laugh guys I know I'm his biggest fan) we had Jordan Crawford playing good (and fun to watch!) basketball and making plays.

I think people saying "Doc was different in his losing seasons" or anything along those lines are looking back with the knowledge of things working out.  Those were dreadful years.  I think the only thing that made them better at times was "at least we have Pierce".  And he had plenty of critics himself.  And Doc was hated by many.

[Celtics4ever]

I think you are projecting on to the players. Mindset isn't the problem. Ability is. Guys are erratic when they aren't that good because they aren't that good. If they have a good matchup, the team goes to them. If not, they are useless

I concur we are not that good.  I would only keep two players on this roster were I Danny Ainge as potential starters and they are both rookies.  I have seen some bad mindsets  demonstrated as well though.   Sully for instance does not always run the floor, walks to timeouts like he is dying.   Players do not always seem to be listening in timeouts either but that is the whole NBA.

Think I was one of the first to say CBS is underachieving as the coach

I respectfully disagree.   If anything I think he has over achieved.    We have some poor talent on this team.   I think this team has played well  and won some games they in fact should not have won.  Our talent is dismal.

I still think sometimes the players are tuning him out.   It happens, Rondo tuned him out at times too.   I think it has nothing to do with ability.  It happens a lot in the pros especially if you make more than your coach.  Men are not as coach-able as boys in college and millionaires even less so. 

I also dont think its helping guys like Marcus smart, olynyk develop to be losing minutes to the likes of jameer nelson and brandon bass

 

It is a double edged sword, you want to be able to trade these guys and boost their value and you want to develop talent.   But you can't really do both.   I think Stevens still wants to make the playoffs in his heart.  I think Ainge would rather see us pick high given the roster he has built.   We need to get on the same page and do one or the other and commit to it.  We wavered last year and all we got was a number six pick.   While it is true, we are not lucky in the lottery.   But we'd have a better chance of luck with a worse record.

The rotations are bad sometimes, I think he over coaches if anything with some of the rotations.  We're it me, I would have the team in full blown development mode.   I wonder who will want Wright as little as we use him.  I was hoping he would get twenty mpg or more to see what he has to offer.

I suspect we are showcasing Sullinger to move him which would be wise given his limitations.   He is not going to help you win, with his D and hero ball and he opens up the rim to the other's team offense but maybe that is the tanking plan as he plays C down the stretch and it is drive city by the other team.

[LooseCannon]

Brad hasnt adjusted to the nba game yet either. I dont understand these 10-11 man rotations. its like he thinks its college where you rotate different guys in and out of the lineup.

Part of me thinks he is trying to create a large enough sample size for different combinations so that the math is relevant in analyzing what works.

[esel1000]

Stevens can definitely improve in some areas (i.e accountabilty) but until we see him coach a decent roster how can we make judgements on his overall NBA coaching abilities? This roster is ill fitted role players... It's almost impossible to find decent rotations, and even worse when guys are acting like immature babies over playing time. Can't fault Stevens fully when DA built the roster to lose. It's also his second year in the league so he has time to improve on his faults.

When we have a halfway decent roster (or one that makes any sense) and if these are the results it'll be a different story. But it'd probably have to take Pop to do anything with this garbage roster as constructed... Can't wait until we ship some of these guys out.

Crowder also said it best as quoted. Players need to be responsible. Probably the one keeper from the Rondo trade

[hwangjini_1]

Brad hasnt adjusted to the nba game yet either. I dont understand these 10-11 man rotations. its like he thinks its college where you rotate different guys in and out of the lineup.

Part of me thinks he is trying to create a large enough sample size for different combinations so that the math is relevant in analyzing what works.

this is a very good point in what has been a very good thread. maybe CBS is indeed planning for the future, not today's win or pleasing anyone, by seeing who can do what well with whom and against what sort of defense/offense. mix and match, match and mix...and only doing all the combos over long time and in different settings produces reliable results.

this season maybe one big maze and the celtics are the little rats running through it. ha, ha...the thought is not outlandish. 

now all we need is for greek666 to dig up some images of mice wearing celtic uniforms for us.

[danglertx]

I hope Jae wants to be held accountable.  He was the weak side defender late in the game that when the shot went up, he turned and went straight to the basket instead of putting a body on his man and the rebound went over his head, eventually turning into a three pointer that killed any chance of a comeback.  I think a 6pt game went to a 9pt game and it was over.

I hope blocking out is one of the things Stevens is stressing.  I see KO do it every play, he finds a man and puts a body on him.

[tarheelsxxiii]

A player should not be saying that about a coach.

Which begs the question, are you really the coach if you don't appear to do any actual coaching.

That's just the tip of this iceberg the Celtic Titanic is sailing into .

Ainge will just have to let Stevens go. I don't think the team is responding to whatever he's selling anymore.

just for historical reference for this conversation:

doc river's record as coach of the celtics prior to the championship -
2004-05 = 45 wins and 37 losses
2005-06 = 33 and 49
2006-07 = 24 and 58

yet, in 2007-08 doc guided the celtics to a 66 and 16 record.

in one season doc goes from coaching a team to 24 wins to one with 66 wins. more than coaching is involved here and Red himself could not have coached that 2006-07 team to respectability.

some members of cb were impatient with rivers, saying things very similar to what i am reading here. doc was coach of the year once before coming to the celtics. he had coached more than 4 full seasons in Orlando before coming to the celtics. and he still coached the celtics to a 24 win season. the celtics got beat more than a rented mule.

cb posters would gleefully dump on doc for being a total waste of space as a coach, losing the team's respect, unable to set rotations, unable to finish games, and more. it got old then and it could very easily get old here.

i don't see why this board is so impatient with CBS when it is ainge who put this team together.

let's see what happens in february to the roster, then let's see what CBS does with that team. they will still lose, no coach can solve that problem. but how CBS will respond to the changes is of interest to me.

Lets look at that team.

He had the best shooter in the game. Possibly top 5 all time natural shooters.

A player who acted like he was caged up before games. One of the top 2-3 all time power forwards all time.

One of the best 4th quarter playmakers/scorers in the league.

And a point guard that was unselfish and had amazing court vision.

Now I'll give Doc credit for being a great floor general, but he had a stacked team.

TP. I laughed. Love it.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Brad hasnt adjusted to the nba game yet either. I dont understand these 10-11 man rotations. its like he thinks its college where you rotate different guys in and out of the lineup.

Part of me thinks he is trying to create a large enough sample size for different combinations so that the math is relevant in analyzing what works.

Wow. Mind blown. Heady stuff. I think you honestly could be right. Seems like something he'd do. It's either that, or he's coaching as if he's still at the college level and has no idea what way is up. One of the 2 extremes, yeah?

LarBrd and vinnie made good points, too. I'm sure Ainge was at least somewhat transparent about what this job would involve. But I'm with vinnie in that I think BS is feeling in over his head right now, more than he may have anticipated. It will be interesting to see what happens after the deadline. I have a sinking feeling our roster isn't going to change that much... not that quickly. Can only hope..

[kraidstar]

the c's played hard in chicago, they definitely played hard in washington a few weeks back, and i thought they played hard in the second half against charlotte. i'm not sure that i buy this narrative that they're all dogging it (though i would agree that green's effort has been suspect).
the c's got into trouble against charlotte because they only put up 36 points in the first half. that's not just a function of bad effort, it's talent. our guards and wings are mostly awful outside shooters, even though they get a lot of good looks, we're shooting just .324 from 3 on the season, compared to the league average of .352. guys aren't intentionally missing because they don't want to hustle, they just aren't very good at hitting longer shots. if we shot at the league average for threes, we'd score about 2 more points more per game. it doesn't sound like much, but it adds up over a season.
add to that that few of our players are above-average defenders (most notably our bigs), and we have a real problem. most of those guys just don't have a lot of natural defensive talent. olynyk, sully, bass, turner, pressey, thornton, nelson... none of those guys have great athleticism, length, or lateral movement. when they're playing hard they can be average, but not much better, most of the truly gifted defenders in this league have better natural ability. we've been picking from the scrapheap late in the draft year after year, and so we have some flawed 1-way players who are useful NBA players but can't carry a team.
this is not to say that the c's have had great effort every game. they haven't. but no team brings it every quarter, every night in an 82-game season. this team just happens to not have the talent to win when they're not playing well.