How pathetic is Miami?

[ScoobyDoo]

HeatFan:

I think the old adage "the proof is in the pudding" applies pretty well to the Heat. They are pretty much hated around the country for their arrogant, front running, collusive attitude.

The Celtics have a massive, huge fan base worldwide.

The Lakers - same can be said

The Bulls - same can be said.

Large swaths of the NBA fan base don't dislike the Heat just because they're winning, it's largely about the way they're going about it - team persona.

They also haven't had any in their prime steam rolling team to deal with. As I've said before there is no way your Heat get by even the nets this year if Pierce and KG are the same ages as LeBron and Bosh.

"The Bird",

Appreciate the comment but I don't think this is really whining at all. It's a legit, historical argument about how difficult it has been for each of "the all time NBA greats" to achieve their titles. That's a very interesting discussion / debate - something I could see as a great  topic for an episode  on that show with Ernie, Charles, Shaq, Steve Smith, C-Webb and Kenny sit around and debate stuff.

Perks-a-beast:
Agreed 100% >  Russell, Bird & Magic, then Jordan.

Russell had Chamberlain, West, Baylor teams, among others.
Bird and Magic had each other
Jordan had perhaps less potent rivals than Russell, Bird and Magic.

I still argue that the closest thing to a true, prime time rival for the Heat during their runs, similar to what Russell, Bird and Magic had to get through for titles, would be:

1. Durant and Westbrook replacing George and Stevenson on Indiana - everything else the same.

2. Add Joaquim Noah to the current OKC team that is now more experienced.
Joaquim, Durant and Westbrook versus Bosh, James and Wade - same supporting casts.

Now you've got something serious cooking.

Those  series would be like the Lakers / Celtics series of the 80's where neither side was comfortable, at all, heading into - real toss up every time they play...   
       

[ScoobyDoo]

csfansince60s:

Great point regarding the Sixers - epic battles - and then we get the Lakers after that?
Dawkins, Bobby Jones, Dr. J, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Moses Malone, Charles Barkeley - Christ...

Didn't we also have some epic battles with some really talented Milwaukee Bucks' teams? I'm thinking Paul Pressey, Terry Cummings, Sidney Moncrief, Marques Johnson, Junior Bridgeman, Ricky Pierce, etc.?...

[BballTim]

I feel like the Boston/Miami rivalry is silly.  Our most recent rivals were the Rasheed Wallace Pistons and the Kobe Lakers.  Miami's rise happened after we stopped being legitimate contenders.  Yeah, I guess you could say LeBron was a "rival", because he almost knocked us off by himself in 2008... and we happened to meet him a few times in the playoffs.... but I've always had respect for his skill.  And by the time we met Miami in the playoffs, we really weren't contenders anymore.  We were more just the overachievers who were giving them a tough series... kinda like Atlanta back in 2008 when they pushed us to 7 games.  Maybe Atlanta considered us their hated rivals... I just thought they were some overachieving team we happened to beat in the playoffs.

I agree with this.

It's kind of how almost every West Coast team has "a rivalry" with the Lakers, even though that team really only saw the Celtics as an actual rival. Getting beat consistently does not a rivalry make.

I will say, though, that LeBron, Bosh, and Wade did collectively have a rivalry with the Celtics, for sure.

  I think the rivalry was more with LeBron than the rest of the Heat after we'd sent him home twice. We didn't have a rivalry with the Heat per se, but they definitely thought that beating the Celts was a large accomplishment.

[D.o.s.]

That's definitely true.

[aporel#18]

Lebron, just like Jordan, has been privileged by the League. Both were stars before they played an NBA game, and both "had" to be great. But Jordan, as stupid as he is, behaved like a jerk, but somehow he kept some dignity. LeBron complains and whines and says things only a 12-year old would say in public. Both get all the calls, and both are great players, but they never had to go through a real rival.

Jordan's golden age began when the great teams of the 80s declined. If Bias didn't pass away, McHale probably never plays with a broken foot, and MAYBE Bird gets a lot more rest so he can win some time. That team would've dominated the Bad Boys, the Fakers and the Bulls for a long time.

LeBron had to go through an injured, past-their-primes Celtic team. Of course, if KG's knee injury didn't hamper him, we could've seen a more dominant team for more years. But the fact is the Heat injured Rondo to beat us in 2011, then they used all the calls in Game 2 of the 2012 ECF. Not fair. I have no complain about last season, though.

with a little less luck, and better officiating, LeBron and Jordan wouldn't look that good. But they had to, Stern, BSPN and Nike wouldn't allow anything different. It's a shame because the 80s NBA was spectacular and there were great great teams back then (Sampson/Olajuwon Rockets, Sixers, Bucks, Pistons, Kareem's Lakers...). IMO, miles away from the Jordan era or this dark Hate era.

Green will rise again, and in a couple of years Wade and LeBron will be the elder citizens... it's going to be a lot of fun.

[Banner18now!]

Lebron, just like Jordan, has been privileged by the League. Both were stars before they played an NBA game, and both "had" to be great. But Jordan, as stupid as he is, behaved like a jerk, but somehow he kept some dignity. LeBron complains and whines and says things only a 12-year old would say in public. Both get all the calls, and both are great players, but they never had to go through a real rival.

Jordan's golden age began when the great teams of the 80s declined. If Bias didn't pass away, McHale probably never plays with a broken foot, and MAYBE Bird gets a lot more rest so he can win some time. That team would've dominated the Bad Boys, the Fakers and the Bulls for a long time.

LeBron had to go through an injured, past-their-primes Celtic team. Of course, if KG's knee injury didn't hamper him, we could've seen a more dominant team for more years. But the fact is the Heat injured Rondo to beat us in 2011, then they used all the calls in Game 2 of the 2012 ECF. Not fair. I have no complain about last season, though.

with a little less luck, and better officiating, LeBron and Jordan wouldn't look that good. But they had to, Stern, BSPN and Nike wouldn't allow anything different. It's a shame because the 80s NBA was spectacular and there were great great teams back then (Sampson/Olajuwon Rockets, Sixers, Bucks, Pistons, Kareem's Lakers...). IMO, miles away from the Jordan era or this dark Hate era.

Green will rise again, and in a couple of years Wade and LeBron will be the elder citizens... it's going to be a lot of fun.

This is exactly what I can't wait for, and we will see where all these ball washing fans of Lebron are.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Talk about collusion?  How do you get KG for Big Al without McHale colluding with Ainge? That is collusion. Signing a FREE AGENT is not.

What "substantial" assets did you give up? Wally Szczerbiak? LOL. Jeff Green? Lol. You got him back and he lead you to the lottery. Big Al? Did anyone even know he was in the league anymore until this year?

One and done. That's what the C's are.

Do you think the Celtics had anything to do with Miami going after our Big 3? Pat Riley was planning for it since 2006. That's when Wade, Lebron and Bosh signed their extensions to opt out at the same time. It took years of planning and moving players around so we'd have the cap space at the right time.

If you were shocked by it its cause you're playing checkers while we're playing chess.

We slammed the door shut on your window and took your players as spare parts.

Looking forward to next year when Paul Pierce comes to South Beach with his tail between his legs. He can back up the King.

  The good thing about Heat fans is they'll pretty much cease to exist as a group when LeBron leaves town. Enjoy the bandwagon while it lasts!

Yup, and Miami will probably go many years before ever sniffing the Finals again once Bron is gone, because no elite free agent will want to play with Norris Cole and Mario Chalmers, and the league's next big stars will all be under rookie contracts with other teams.

[perks-a-beast]

Talk about collusion?  How do you get KG for Big Al without McHale colluding with Ainge? That is collusion. Signing a FREE AGENT is not.

What "substantial" assets did you give up? Wally Szczerbiak? LOL. Jeff Green? Lol. You got him back and he lead you to the lottery. Big Al? Did anyone even know he was in the league anymore until this year?

One and done. That's what the C's are.

Do you think the Celtics had anything to do with Miami going after our Big 3? Pat Riley was planning for it since 2006. That's when Wade, Lebron and Bosh signed their extensions to opt out at the same time. It took years of planning and moving players around so we'd have the cap space at the right time.

If you were shocked by it its cause you're playing checkers while we're playing chess.

We slammed the door shut on your window and took your players as spare parts.

Looking forward to next year when Paul Pierce comes to South Beach with his tail between his legs. He can back up the King.

It will be a cold day in hell before Paul Pierce puts on a Miami Heat Jersey. And even if he did it wouldn't be nearly as pathetic as a Heat fan logging into a Celtics forum to try to justify their team and elaborately and idiotically explain why 14 of our 17 championships barely count. Get back to us when your team is putting up banners in the double digits. In the meantime get a hobby.

[ScoobyDoo]

I think with a couple moves this off season we could actually seriously challenge Miami next season - not a joke.

 

[csfansince60s]

csfansince60s:

Great point regarding the Sixers - epic battles - and then we get the Lakers after that?
Dawkins, Bobby Jones, Dr. J, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Moses Malone, Charles Barkeley - Christ...

Didn't we also have some epic battles with some really talented Milwaukee Bucks' teams? I'm thinking Paul Pressey, Terry Cummings, Sidney Moncrief, Marques Johnson, Junior Bridgeman, Ricky Pierce, etc.?...

Exactly right, Scooby. Tong Wars!!!

6ers beat us in '80 we beat them in '81 in best playoff series that I have ever seen, then they beat us in '82.

When the Bucks beat us (I think in '84) that lineup you mention was impressive.

Never mind the Lakers waiting for us almost every year, after they cruise through the West and we claw our way out of the East, bloodied.

The  '90s Bulls and the cHeat have never had to run a gauntlet like that.

[Celtics18]

LB33,

My stance on Lebron James is that I give him his full due for his greatness.  He's earned that.  I also have no problem with him "as a person," as many fans seem to.  Sure, he's a bit arrogant, but c'mon, how could you not be if you are Lebron James?

That said, I still root against him and his Heat.  I'm not a fan of the "superstar" model.  I realize that the superstars generally win, but I'll always root for a team with lesser stars that plays a good, hard nosed brand of team basketball to beat the superstar teams.  It's why I was pulling so hard for the Grizzlies to beat the Thunder in this year's playoffs, for example. 

The last thing I want to see in these playoffs is a Thunder/Miami Finals.  Spurs/Pacers would be a great matchup as far as I'm concerned.  I know it wouldn't be the sexiest match up for the money makers, but it's what I'm pulling for.

I've heard you say something like that before and I respect that.   Unfortunately, it's a superstar's league.  Championships are won by Superstars.  More so than any team sport.  You need the top guys to win.  I get that you'd prefer to root for the scrappy underdogs, but with the exception of the 2004 Pistons (who technically had 4 all-stars), it's usually the superstars who get it. 

I actually like it.  I like that we had the Bill Russell era... the Bird/Magic era... the Jordan era... the Shaq/Duncan era.  We are firmly in the LeBron era right now.  I've said it before... "league parity" would ruin the prestige of the title, imo.  I don't like the idea of Memphis winning one year, then Charlotte, then Atlanta... etc.   It's kind of cool that the league is dominated by the gods of basketball.  LeBron is the latest in a short list of them.

I think it's an appealing part of the league.  It's not just a willy-nilly random champion every year... the NBA championship actually matters.   If LeBron falls this year, it's meaningful.  It's not just the roll of a dice... like some leagues.   There's been like 11 teams that have won titles in the past 40 years.   This is Miami's era.

Right.  Your opinion is certainly the more popular one.  It's also the one the league would like you to adopt as it is easier to market individual superstars than teams.

It's not necessarily parity that I'm after, but the notion of "team basketball" being able to beat "superstar basketball."  It's why I have so much admiration for what the Spurs have been able to do so consistently for all these years, and the reason I fell in love with that '04 Detroit team, and it's also something that I'm very proud of about our own '08 championship team, and our '10 Finals team.

I realize that it's still to a large extend "a superstars' league," but I also believe that the tide has been shifting, even if only ever so slightly, over the course of this current decade.  The examples cited above show that team basketball as a winning formula is making somewhat of a come-back.   

However, we don't have to agree, and we don't have to enjoy the game of basketball in the same way. 

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

It is what it is..until a team can finally beat these guys they are the team to beat. The spurs choking last year did not help matters.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

It is what it is..until a team can finally beat these guys they are the team to beat. The spurs choking last year did not help matters.

I know, that was terrible last year. Spurs TOTALLY had it, just a couple minutes away from knocking the Heat off their throne. Yes, the Heat took advantage of their opportunities, but the Spurs basically handed them those opportunities on a silver platter.

[celtics2030]

I will always say this

if Ray , Pierce and Garnett were in semi-prime form for the past 6 years

they would have won 3-4 rings and Miami would never get past them

and that Kendrick Perkins trade really killed us