To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.

[nickagneta]

"But if these players aren't doing the correct things after thousands of hours in practice and have shown they aren't getting it, wy do you feel they will suddenly get it in games? "

I didn't know that. I guess I should go to more practices.

How do you know this?

Because the coach isn't playing them.

You don't know that. That's simply your assumption, that you think is a fact, but unless you're Doc Rivers, you don't know if that's true. This isn't high school basketball - you don't get benched for screwing up a play in practice.

While I agree with you the talent has to be there to play, I disagree that experience in games isn't relevant. Or that letting younger guys play (so our older guys get rest too) and maybe lose a game or two isn't beneficial in the long run.

What if we did lose 8 more games and lost home court? But the big 3 had more rest. I'd rather have us on the road then dead tired at home.

Give me an example of one player that played on a Doc Rivers team that Doc didn't play who went on to become a player elsewhere? Just one.

If you can come up with one name, then I will believe that I am wrong and that Doc isn't playing Walker and Giddens and Pruitt because he doesn't like young players and not because they just aren't good. otherwise, I'm going to believe, as a fact, that Doc knows how to judge NBA quality talent and plays the best players because they are the best players.

[wdleehi]

Here is the key with these young guys vs. the previous round of young guys under Doc, these young guys didn't take advantage of their opportunities.



Remember when players like Jefferson, Gomes, Perk, Rondo, West, Powe, and Davis were not playing, we would ask why.  But when they got the chance, they used it to earn a rotation spot.  They played great.  It allowed us to knock Doc for not getting them in earlier.


Pruitt, Walker and JR are more in line with players like Green, TA, Banks, Allen Ray and Telfair.  When they got their chances (except JR which also says something) they didn't earn a rotation spot.  


So if they can not step up and take a rotation spot, Doc should not play them.

[bobdelt]

"But if these players aren't doing the correct things after thousands of hours in practice and have shown they aren't getting it, wy do you feel they will suddenly get it in games? "

I didn't know that. I guess I should go to more practices.

How do you know this?

Because the coach isn't playing them.

You don't know that. That's simply your assumption, that you think is a fact, but unless you're Doc Rivers, you don't know if that's true. This isn't high school basketball - you don't get benched for screwing up a play in practice.

While I agree with you the talent has to be there to play, I disagree that experience in games isn't relevant. Or that letting younger guys play (so our older guys get rest too) and maybe lose a game or two isn't beneficial in the long run.

What if we did lose 8 more games and lost home court? But the big 3 had more rest. I'd rather have us on the road then dead tired at home.

Give me an example of one player that played on a Doc Rivers team that Doc didn't play who went on to become a player elsewhere? Just one.

If you can come up with one name, then I will believe that I am wrong and that Doc isn't playing Walker and Giddens and Pruitt because he doesn't like young players and not because they just aren't good. otherwise, I'm going to believe, as a fact, that Doc knows how to judge NBA quality talent and plays the best players because they are the best players.

Ben Wallace, Corey Maggette, Troy Hudson

[nickagneta]

"But if these players aren't doing the correct things after thousands of hours in practice and have shown they aren't getting it, wy do you feel they will suddenly get it in games? "

I didn't know that. I guess I should go to more practices.

How do you know this?

Because the coach isn't playing them.

You don't know that. That's simply your assumption, that you think is a fact, but unless you're Doc Rivers, you don't know if that's true. This isn't high school basketball - you don't get benched for screwing up a play in practice.

While I agree with you the talent has to be there to play, I disagree that experience in games isn't relevant. Or that letting younger guys play (so our older guys get rest too) and maybe lose a game or two isn't beneficial in the long run.

What if we did lose 8 more games and lost home court? But the big 3 had more rest. I'd rather have us on the road then dead tired at home.

Give me an example of one player that played on a Doc Rivers team that Doc didn't play who went on to become a player elsewhere? Just one.

If you can come up with one name, then I will believe that I am wrong and that Doc isn't playing Walker and Giddens and Pruitt because he doesn't like young players and not because they just aren't good. otherwise, I'm going to believe, as a fact, that Doc knows how to judge NBA quality talent and plays the best players because they are the best players.

Ben Wallace, Corey Maggette, Troy Hudson

Ben Wallace played 24.2 MPG for Doc the year he was there. He started on that 99-00 team for Doc.

Corey Maggette played 17.8 MPG for Doc as a rookie. how exactly is that not playing him and then he developed elsewhere. 18MPG for a rookie is good.

Troy Hudson played 13.4 MPG one season and then had his coming out party the next year averaging 24 MPG and 12 PPG for Doc.


Three simply horrible and completely wrong examples.

[Gruntled]

Ben Wallace?
Didn't he start every game he ever played while Doc was his coach?  Doc was the first coach to make Wallace a full time starter.

Maggette?
He got almost 18 minutes a game, and even started a few games, despite being considered by most to have an NBA body but not an NBA game "yet" when he was drafted.  His next year with the Clippers was almost identical to his year with Doc, and his minutes slowly increased after that.  It looks like a player who learned the game (and dealt with injuries) over time.  18 minutes a night is a lot for a young rookie on a .500 team.

Hudson?
He averaged almost 23 minutes a game his first year under Doc, despite having a lot of talent in front of him.

How did Doc not play these guys?

[Gruntled]

Oops, looks like my reply was slow...  Nickagneta speaks the truth.

[Who]

For the first month of the season Courtney Lee bricked his jump shots (32% from the field, 28% from three) and missed defensive rotation after defensive rotation.

SVG kept playing him because he saw the talent behind the performances, and felt that with more time and experience his shot would improve and his defense would improve, and they did.

Giving young players court time gives them the opportunity to find their comfort zone and to improve their games. It's important.

[nickagneta]

For the first month of the season Courtney Lee bricked his jump shots (32% from the field, 28% from three) and missed defensive rotation after defensive rotation.

SVG kept playing him because he saw the talent behind the performances, and felt that with more time and experience his shot would improve and his defense would improve, and they did.

Giving young players court time gives them the opportunity to find their comfort zone and to improve their games. It's important.

Important caveat "SVG....saw the talent".

What you guys aren't getting is that Doc has been a great judge of who has NBA talent and who does not as judged by his record of playing young players that become good players and never having not given time to a player that later turned into something somewhere else.

And that's not a small sampling. We are talking a decade of coaching here. Walker and Giddens and Pruitt don't play or play sparingly because they have been deemed not good enough to give playing time to.

[Mon]

I think that during the season that there is not enough practice time to always accurately gauge how they're doing.  When the season gets going the practice time goes south quickly and drastically.  If there is not enough practice time...how else can you tell if they are ready?

Also blowouts should be time for young'uns to get some run.  There were some times when the Celtics were way ahead and the starters were still in there.  We were all wondering why...don't you remember?

There are ways to get the kids exposure and development during game time but it is not a priority for Doc...oh well.

Doc's job security is tied to end results not player development so don't hold your breath.

[BballTim]

You guys just don't get it. Playing time isn't going to make these guys better. They are either good enough to play or not. Giving them playing time during the season isn't going to change that. By playing them in games the only people Doc is proving to that Walker wasn't good enough is you. Coaches can see in practice whether a play is good enough or not, he doesn't eed to give a player time on the court to prove that.

  Are you saying that Walker and Giddens and Pruitt are lacking the talent to be decent nba players? That they'll never make it?

Come on. How many young players that played under Doc that Doc didn't play ever became something when they went elsewhere? Gomes and Al was showing good stuff here and got playing time. Rondo and Leon and Perk and baby all developed under Doc. Ben Wallace played big minutes for Doc when he was young. Mike Miller played 33 MPG his second year. Tracy McGrady developed under Doc. Doc never had a young player that ever turned into something big somewhere else. Ever.

  That's a pretty low bar though. All of the players you just mentioned got minutes, but how many of them had vets in front of them? Perk and Al sat on the bench behind Blount and Raef. Gomes didn't get many minutes until Al was injured, did he?

His record for developing youth and knowing who is good enough to deserve playing time and who isn't is exceptional after 10 years as a coach. Yet people still want him to prove to them that his decision to not play Walker or Giddens or Telfair or Green is the correct one by playing them more when the don't deserve to be playing.

  He's not perfect in that regard. Again, he played Raef instead of Al and you can't say that Raef was deserving of all of those minutes. He also gave Sam more minutes than he deserved in the 07-08 playoffs.

[wdleehi]

You guys just don't get it. Playing time isn't going to make these guys better. They are either good enough to play or not. Giving them playing time during the season isn't going to change that. By playing them in games the only people Doc is proving to that Walker wasn't good enough is you. Coaches can see in practice whether a play is good enough or not, he doesn't eed to give a player time on the court to prove that.

  Are you saying that Walker and Giddens and Pruitt are lacking the talent to be decent nba players? That they'll never make it?

Come on. How many young players that played under Doc that Doc didn't play ever became something when they went elsewhere? Gomes and Al was showing good stuff here and got playing time. Rondo and Leon and Perk and baby all developed under Doc. Ben Wallace played big minutes for Doc when he was young. Mike Miller played 33 MPG his second year. Tracy McGrady developed under Doc. Doc never had a young player that ever turned into something big somewhere else. Ever.

  That's a pretty low bar though. All of the players you just mentioned got minutes, but how many of them had vets in front of them? Perk and Al sat on the bench behind Blount and Raef. Gomes didn't get many minutes until Al was injured, did he?

His record for developing youth and knowing who is good enough to deserve playing time and who isn't is exceptional after 10 years as a coach. Yet people still want him to prove to them that his decision to not play Walker or Giddens or Telfair or Green is the correct one by playing them more when the don't deserve to be playing.

  He's not perfect in that regard. Again, he played Raef instead of Al and you can't say that Raef was deserving of all of those minutes. He also gave Sam more minutes than he deserved in the 07-08 playoffs.

But what happened when Jefferson (as well as Gomes, Rondo, Perk, Davis, Powe and West) do when injuries forced Doc to play them?


They succeeded.  They played themselves into the rotation.


How did Pruitt do?  Terrible.  Allen Ray was better. 

How did Walker do?  OK, but nothing to get himself in the rotation.


If the young players want to play on this team, they need to play better.

[BballTim]

You guys just don't get it. Playing time isn't going to make these guys better. They are either good enough to play or not. Giving them playing time during the season isn't going to change that. By playing them in games the only people Doc is proving to that Walker wasn't good enough is you. Coaches can see in practice whether a play is good enough or not, he doesn't eed to give a player time on the court to prove that.

  Are you saying that Walker and Giddens and Pruitt are lacking the talent to be decent nba players? That they'll never make it?

Come on. How many young players that played under Doc that Doc didn't play ever became something when they went elsewhere? Gomes and Al was showing good stuff here and got playing time. Rondo and Leon and Perk and baby all developed under Doc. Ben Wallace played big minutes for Doc when he was young. Mike Miller played 33 MPG his second year. Tracy McGrady developed under Doc. Doc never had a young player that ever turned into something big somewhere else. Ever.

  That's a pretty low bar though. All of the players you just mentioned got minutes, but how many of them had vets in front of them? Perk and Al sat on the bench behind Blount and Raef. Gomes didn't get many minutes until Al was injured, did he?

His record for developing youth and knowing who is good enough to deserve playing time and who isn't is exceptional after 10 years as a coach. Yet people still want him to prove to them that his decision to not play Walker or Giddens or Telfair or Green is the correct one by playing them more when the don't deserve to be playing.

  He's not perfect in that regard. Again, he played Raef instead of Al and you can't say that Raef was deserving of all of those minutes. He also gave Sam more minutes than he deserved in the 07-08 playoffs.

But what happened when Jefferson (as well as Gomes, Rondo, Perk, Davis, Powe and West) do when injuries forced Doc to play them?


They succeeded.  They played themselves into the rotation.


How did Pruitt do?  Terrible.  Allen Ray was better. 

How did Walker do?  OK, but nothing to get himself in the rotation.


If the young players want to play on this team, they need to play better.

  But some of them succeeded over time, not right away. They sometimes got minutes that they didn't really earn because there was nobody good in front of them. And the minutes that they got helped them become better players. I don't think that these guys were ready to contribute this year. I don't think that it's likely they'd have been ready for a big role in the playoffs even if they'd have played more minutes during the season. But that doesn't make it the case that all of those players you listed earned their minutes before they played or that these guys won't improve if you give them minutes in a game.

[paintitgreen]

I think I agree a hybrid of Jon's take in the first reply to the original post and that original post which I think speaks a great deal of truth. The young guys we have right now didn't show enough last year to earn playing time. At the same time we "need" them to play because we need to get our older guys more rest. In that regard, it's not that we need those particular young guys to play, it's that we need somebody to step in and play. That's why I'd like to see a couple more veterans join in - guys we know can give minutes at our key positions. Adding Rasheed and an Anthony Parker or Jamario Moon would take a big burden off KG, Pierce and Ray. If Bill Walker and JR Giddens end up outshining Parker, Moon, Hill or whoever we else we get as a wing backup, that's great. But we need somebody to step in and play now. And I agree with nick that at this point, those young guys who filled out our roster last year aren't doing it.