Stern Speaks on the Refs/NBA Officiating Poll (Merged)

[slamtheking]

Here's an idea:

Why don't they let each coach get the chance to challenge one call a game like they do in football? Then the refs would have to look at it on the replay screen and change it if necessary.

It's a nice thought if it was done by someone with absolutely no ties to any teams or the referee union.  Expecting refs to overturn their own bad decision is far too optimistic.

[Kwhit10]

Here's an idea:

Why don't they let each coach get the chance to challenge one call a game like they do in football? Then the refs would have to look at it on the replay screen and change it if necessary.

It's a nice thought if it was done by someone with absolutely no ties to any teams or the referee union.  Expecting refs to overturn their own bad decision is far too optimistic.

Plus if we start doing this it slows the game down, the league has been trying to speed the game up.

[Rondo_is_better]

He also said that they have a system in place where every play, every call and every non-call from every game is reviewed. The refs get feedback and they're graded based on those reviews.

True. I'm always appalled when people say that the refs aren't hold accountable or punished by their errors. It's simply untrue. Teams can ask the league to review every single call and refs are going up and down in the ranks accordingly to their performances.

why are you appalled? How do you know they really are held accountable? Because Stern said so?

No, merely by checking the nominations.

Nominations for what?  Most incompetent referee? 

If you're referring to nominations for playoff games then I have to disagree.  Looking at the roster of refs calling those games is like reading a list of the high-profile problem referees.  Not all of them are problems but many would make the "least credible" list. 
It's not a coincidence that if you ask fans of the game (not the casual fan that knows Kobe, Lebron and no one else) who they think are the problem referees, they'll tend to come up with the same group of names.

Maybe they come up with that same list of names because those refs are consistently terrible.

Or:

They come up with those names because those refs do the best jobs out of any of the refs in the league, and are therefore assigned the most high-profile assignments. The increase in the number of high-profile games worked by these officials increases the fans' exposure to these referees--they see them more often, especially when the fans are fans of a team like the Celtics--a very successful club that plays a lot of these high-profile games that these same referees are working.

This increase in fan exposure to these referees makes it much more likely that a group of fans will remember each referee's name. Also, these refs are working games in which the fans have a vested interest--we fans are inherently biased because we want the Celtics to win. Thus, when we see a close call that doesn't go our way, we get angry. And thus, this chain becomes reality:

increased fan exposure to certain refs --> fans seeing more calls they disagree with COMING from these refs --> fans perceiving a higher level of incompetence from these higher-profile referees. Why? Because they see those refs more, and witness a higher percentage of their bad calls. So even though these refs miss the same number of calls, the higher profile refs appear to be worse at their jobs.

In other words: bad calls are a fixed quantity. Over the season, a ref will miss 10% of his calls. However, the number of calls a ref misses per game will vary. Some nights he'll be great, and only miss 2% of his calls. Other nights he might stink up the gym and miss 20% of his calls. Depending on how high-profile a referee is, fans will see MORE of a ref over the course of a season, thereby making it much more likely that a fan will see a higher percentage of the missed calls that that referee makes--which makes Dick Bavetta look bad.Lower profile referees are seen less often by fans. Therefore, fans see a smaller percentage of those referee's missed calls.

So, while a fan might see up to 6% of Dick Bavetta's missed calls, the same fan might only see 2% of Mark Wunderlich (or some other minor official's) missed calls.

This disparity creates the illusion that these higher-profile refs are more incompetent than there fellow officials--but really, these guys are more or less the same out on the court. 

[cordobes]

He also said that they have a system in place where every play, every call and every non-call from every game is reviewed. The refs get feedback and they're graded based on those reviews.

True. I'm always appalled when people say that the refs aren't hold accountable or punished by their errors. It's simply untrue. Teams can ask the league to review every single call and refs are going up and down in the ranks accordingly to their performances.

why are you appalled? How do you know they really are held accountable? Because Stern said so?

No, merely by checking the nominations.

Nominations for what?  Most incompetent referee? 

If you're referring to nominations for playoff games then I have to disagree.  Looking at the roster of refs calling those games is like reading a list of the high-profile problem referees.  Not all of them are problems but many would make the "least credible" list. 
It's not a coincidence that if you ask fans of the game (not the casual fan that knows Kobe, Lebron and no one else) who they think are the problem referees, they'll tend to come up with the same group of names.

Do you really know every NBA referee? Do you follow the nominations?

Do you want two quick examples?

Dick Bavetta - for the first time in 15 years or so, he won't be a crew chief in a Finals game. In fact, he wasn't a crew chief in the Conference Finals. Were you aware of this?

Mark Wunderlich - At the start of this season playoffs, he was getting unprecedented love from the NBA for a ref with his experience and age. He was climbing up fast in the ranks (and deservedly so), he was getting the typical nominations of a referee that it's going to be one of the 4 that gets to be chief official in a Final game. Then it happened the Antoine Wright debacle and... bum... he just disappeared. Well, not entirely, but he never lead another officiating crew after that. Now, he'll be lucky to even step on the floor during the Finals. Were you aware of this?

It's not a coincidence that if you ask fans of the game (not the casual fan that knows Kobe, Lebron and no one else) who they think are the problem referees, they'll tend to come up with the same group of names.

Of course it's not a coincidence, it's because they only know the high-end referees (and Violet Palmer, because she's a woman). They are the ones that officiate the big games, they are the ones that have been around for awhile, they are the ones that make the national tv games, they are the ones that officiate in the playoffs, etc.

The idea that the high-profile referees - guys like Steve Javie (who may turning himself into one of the greatest basketball referees of all times), Dan Crawford, Scott Foster, Monty McCutchen, etc. - are actually bad referees is truly mind-boggling and the best prove that whatever the average fan has to say about this issue isn't something that Stern should care about.

[Rondo_is_better]

He also said that they have a system in place where every play, every call and every non-call from every game is reviewed. The refs get feedback and they're graded based on those reviews.

True. I'm always appalled when people say that the refs aren't hold accountable or punished by their errors. It's simply untrue. Teams can ask the league to review every single call and refs are going up and down in the ranks accordingly to their performances.

why are you appalled? How do you know they really are held accountable? Because Stern said so?

No, merely by checking the nominations.

Nominations for what?  Most incompetent referee? 

If you're referring to nominations for playoff games then I have to disagree.  Looking at the roster of refs calling those games is like reading a list of the high-profile problem referees.  Not all of them are problems but many would make the "least credible" list. 
It's not a coincidence that if you ask fans of the game (not the casual fan that knows Kobe, Lebron and no one else) who they think are the problem referees, they'll tend to come up with the same group of names.

Do you really know every NBA referee? Do you follow the nominations?

Do you want two quick examples?

Dick Bavetta - for the first time in 15 years or so, he won't be a crew chief in a Finals game. In fact, he wasn't a crew chief in the Conference Finals. Were you aware of this?

Mark Wunderlich - At the start of this season playoffs, he was getting unprecedented love from the NBA for a ref with his experience and age. He was climbing up fast in the ranks (and deservedly so), he was getting the typical nominations of a referee that it's going to be one of the 4 that gets to be chief official in a Final game. Then it happened the Antoine Wright debacle and... bum... he just disappeared. Well, not entirely, but he never lead another officiating crew after that. Now, he'll be lucky to even step on the floor during the Finals. Were you aware of this?

It's not a coincidence that if you ask fans of the game (not the casual fan that knows Kobe, Lebron and no one else) who they think are the problem referees, they'll tend to come up with the same group of names.

Of course it's not a coincidence, it's because they only know the high-end referees (and Violet Palmer, because she's a woman). They are the ones that officiate the big games, they are the ones that have been around for awhile, they are the ones that make the national tv games, they are the ones that officiate in the playoffs, etc.

The idea that the high-profile referees - guys like Steve Javie (who may turning himself into one of the greatest basketball referees of all times), Dan Crawford, Scott Foster, Monty McCutchen, etc. - are actually bad referees is truly mind-boggling and the best prove that whatever the average fan has to say about this issue isn't something that Stern should care about.

I mostly agree, Cordobes. TP. I don't think these guys are GREAT referees--but they're not the worst.

As it stands:

-traveling is inconsistently called

-superstars are given special treatment

those are flaws in the way the game is played.

[Schupac]

I've been MIA and ghosting for some time but I had to make a return for this thread's poll.

Stern's defense of the refs by not addressing the problem continues to infuriate a large portion of basketball fans.  The usual defense you get are responses that don't fit the question.  In this case, someone brings up the refs.  Stern's response is ratings.

You can certainly use that as a correlation if there is no better evidence, but these games are videotaped.  When you watch a player consistently travel, the ratings have as much bearing as whale migration patterns when determining if the correct call was made/not made.

[nickagneta]

I wonder if Jeff could talk to the people at SBNation and put up the same poll across all the NBA team websites. I wonder what the poll would be like nationwide across all team preferences.

[cordobes]

I always wonder what people mean by "Stern should address the problem".

The only way of addressing the problem would be to educate the fans, who, in a large majority, aren't even aware of the rules of the game ( I still remember an hilarious debate here about what constitutes a travel violation, with people arguing that a jump-stop is a travel violation  - meaning everytime a player catches a ball in the air and then lands he'd be called for a travel). But that's an impossible task.

What's he supposed to do, then? I've already suggested he should replace all the referees with the best NCAA and FIBA referees for a season. I'd love to see that happening.

[crownsy]

What's he supposed to do, then? I've already suggested he should replace all the referees with the best NCAA and FIBA referees for a season. I'd love to see that happening.

This would be excellent, as we've discussed, plus institute some sort of max age limit. I find it hard to believe 65+ officials, of which there are several notable ones who are accused of "phantom calls" alot can keep up on turnovers and be in the proper position. The game is simply to fast.

You can watch this happening, i distinctly remember a play last year vs. the hornets where we turned the ball over and they got out on the break, and bavetta had to stop, turn around,a nd try to keep up. He ended up calling a blocking foul on...posey i think but it might have been someone else that he clearly had no hope of seeing, he simply wasn't fast enough to keep up with the players.

Not their fault, but when you can barley beat charles barkley in a foot race, you can't keep up with today's NBA players on transition plays.

[cordobes]

What's he supposed to do, then? I've already suggested he should replace all the referees with the best NCAA and FIBA referees for a season. I'd love to see that happening.

This would be excellent, as we've discussed, plus institute some sort of max age limit.

It would be excellent to dispel the notion that the current NBA referees are bad. I predict that 2 months into the season fans would be begging Stern to bring back the old guys.

I'm against any age limit. If the guys are physically and mentally apt, their age doesn't matter. They have standardized physical tests - those who fail them, should go, no matter their age. To exclude people who are apt to do the job just because of their age doesn't make any sense to me.

[crownsy]

What's he supposed to do, then? I've already suggested he should replace all the referees with the best NCAA and FIBA referees for a season. I'd love to see that happening.

This would be excellent, as we've discussed, plus institute some sort of max age limit.

It would be excellent to dispel the notion that the current NBA referees are bad. I predict that 2 months into the season fans would be begging Stern to bring back the old guys.

I'm against any age limit. If the guys are physically and mentally apt, their age doesn't matter. They have standardized physical tests - those who fail them, should go, no matter their age. To exclude people who are apt to do the job just because of their age doesn't make any sense to me.

I dont know, i bet we could get through a season without an official challenging a player to a fight or one fixing games for the mob.

[hpantazo]

I always wonder what people mean by "Stern should address the problem".

The only way of addressing the problem would be to educate the fans, who, in a large majority, aren't even aware of the rules of the game ( I still remember an hilarious debate here about what constitutes a travel violation, with people arguing that a jump-stop is a travel violation  - meaning everytime a player catches a ball in the air and then lands he'd be called for a travel). But that's an impossible task.

What's he supposed to do, then? I've already suggested he should replace all the referees with the best NCAA and FIBA referees for a season. I'd love to see that happening.

lack of knowledge by the fans isn't the problem, too much knowledge of the rules by the fans is. Boston fans are widely regarded as some of the most knowledgeable basketball fans around, and they hate the refs more than anyone. The more you understand the rules, the more you realize it when they are borken and refs miss it, or even worse, when they call things that didn't happen. The less you understand the rules, the less likely you are to argue with poor calls.

[Eja117]

I've sort of said it in other places but I used to not be so sure about the old saying "You shouldn't know the referees name" and then it occurred to me during the playoffs that I think the only refs I know in all pro sports are in the NBA and I hate them all.

The NBA may be the hardest sport to ref (personally I think it's football and that they do the best job) but the NBA refs are the worst in all major sports and the players and coaches get fined for saying so. A good reason it's the worst is that Stern has empowered them to be little demi-Gods on the court and there's no other sport like that either.

I have never seen the kinds of attitudes out of refs in other sports that I've seen out of NBA refs except when a baseball ump has someone in their face and even then it takes them a while to get huffy.

The baseball ump that got spit in the face did a better job than some NBA refs on a nightly basis

[Hoyo de Monterrey]

I wonder if Jeff could talk to the people at SBNation and put up the same poll across all the NBA team websites. I wonder what the poll would be like nationwide across all team preferences.

I'll co-sign this... Jeff/Mods is there any way we could get this to happen?