We are closer than we think

[colincb]

Celtics in 69, 74, and 76 didn't have a top 5 player.

Havlicek was in 74. But that's 2 more, for a total of 10.  TP

Havlicek made 1st team because he was the MVP in the Finals and by reputation. He was clearly on the decline offensively and defensively at the age of 33 otherwise. 22nd in PER FWIW.

By your benchmark the 62, 64, and 66 Cs didn't have any 1st team NBA players. So that's 13, but Russell  was listed behind Wilt at center in those three years and ended up on the 2nd team.

[celticsclay]

I think both Brown and Tatum have a shot at making an all NBA second team (I don't think they both will, but think one of them has a legit shot). Most thought Brown should have been a starter for all-star game. Do people think neither of them could? Or is this not how we determine top 10 players.

[Moranis]

Celtics in 69, 74, and 76 didn't have a top 5 player.

Havlicek was in 74. But that's 2 more, for a total of 10.  TP

Havlicek made 1st team because he was the MVP in the Finals and by reputation. He was clearly on the decline offensively and defensively at the age of 33 otherwise. 22nd in PER FWIW.

By your benchmark the 62, 64, and 66 Cs didn't have any 1st team NBA players. So that's 13, but Russell  was listed behind Wilt at center in those three years and ended up on the 2nd team.

Cowens was the MVP in 73.  He was still a top 5 player in 74 and 76 (he finished 4th and 3rd in MVP voting and was 2nd in 75).  He just wasn't better than Kareem which is why he was on the 2nd Team.  And that is the fundamental problem with looking at the 1st Team All NBA as the guide for a top 5 player as often the 5 best players don't just nicely fit into the 5 positions that make the 1st Team. Wilt and Bill are the perfect example of this as they were the top 2 players in the sport for basically a decade yet only 1 could make the 1st Team.  The All NBA also rewards seasons but it isn't a ranking of players just how good a season was. A lesser player can have a better season.  It happens all the time and isn't always a health thing.

I think Elvin Hayes was a top 5 player for the Bullets in 78 even though he didn't have the accolades that would lead to that conclusion.  He sacrificed his numbers a lot for the good of the team that year and they won because of it.

The 3 teams are basically the 79 Sonics, the 04 Pistons, and the 14 Spurs.

[RodyTur10]

I think both Brown and Tatum have a shot at making an all NBA second team (I don't think they both will, but think one of them has a legit shot). Most thought Brown should have been a starter for all-star game. Do people think neither of them could? Or is this not how we determine top 10 players.

After a hot start Brown has cooled off a bit. He'll make the All Star game because he has shown enough this season and he's on the Celtics, which helps for your reputation.

Brown and Tatum are really good, but there are a ton of other guys who also play lights out. I don't think Brown has a shot at All NBA unless he goes "Tatum like February '20 nuclear".

Currently I assume (9): Curry, Lillard, Doncic, James, Leonard, Durant, Antetokounmpo, Jokic and Embiid as locks.
Likely picks (6): Irving, Harden, Beal, George, Davis, Gobert
Other candidates (7): Young, Mitchell, Butler, Tatum, Simmons, Sabonis, Vucevic

(that's 22 names before Brown, Adebayo, LaVine, Williamson or Randle comes in the ball park)

[GreenlyGreeny]

Newsflash: Tatum will not be starting in the all-star game this year. He’s not even top three in the East...would you really take him over Giannis, KD, and Embiid? Maybe over KD and Embiid if we’re playing the long-game, but definitely not this year.

You absolutely take these five over Tatum: Doncic, LeBron (excepting long-game), Jokic, Kawhi, and Curry.

I love Tatum, but he’s more like Paul Pierce in that he’s a top 12-20 player depending on the year. Same goes for Jaylen, who’s akin to Ray Allen. Not to say they cannot eventually grow into top ten players, but not guaranteed (and some may say doubtful) and it won’t be this year, probably not next. Either way, where’s our top ten KG?

[GreenlyGreeny]

Celtics in 69, 74, and 76 didn't have a top 5 player.

Havlicek was in 74. But that's 2 more, for a total of 10.  TP

Havlicek made 1st team because he was the MVP in the Finals and by reputation. He was clearly on the decline offensively and defensively at the age of 33 otherwise. 22nd in PER FWIW.

By your benchmark the 62, 64, and 66 Cs didn't have any 1st team NBA players. So that's 13, but Russell  was listed behind Wilt at center in those three years and ended up on the 2nd team.

Cowens was the MVP in 73.  He was still a top 5 player in 74 and 76 (he finished 4th and 3rd in MVP voting and was 2nd in 75).  He just wasn't better than Kareem which is why he was on the 2nd Team.  And that is the fundamental problem with looking at the 1st Team All NBA as the guide for a top 5 player as often the 5 best players don't just nicely fit into the 5 positions that make the 1st Team. Wilt and Bill are the perfect example of this as they were the top 2 players in the sport for basically a decade yet only 1 could make the 1st Team.  The All NBA also rewards seasons but it isn't a ranking of players just how good a season was. A lesser player can have a better season.  It happens all the time and isn't always a health thing.

I think Elvin Hayes was a top 5 player for the Bullets in 78 even though he didn't have the accolades that would lead to that conclusion.  He sacrificed his numbers a lot for the good of the team that year and they won because of it.

The 3 teams are basically the 79 Sonics, the 04 Pistons, and the 14 Spurs.

Those teams were also ten-deep. You gotta be lucky and ten-deep, or you gotta have a top ten talent.

[jambr380]

I think both Brown and Tatum have a shot at making an all NBA second team (I don't think they both will, but think one of them has a legit shot). Most thought Brown should have been a starter for all-star game. Do people think neither of them could? Or is this not how we determine top 10 players.

After a hot start Brown has cooled off a bit. He'll make the All Star game because he has shown enough this season and he's on the Celtics, which helps for your reputation.

Brown and Tatum are really good, but there are a ton of other guys who also play lights out. I don't think Brown has a shot at All NBA unless he goes "Tatum like February '20 nuclear".

Currently I assume (9): Curry, Lillard, Doncic, James, Leonard, Durant, Antetokounmpo, Jokic and Embiid as locks.
Likely picks (6): Irving, Harden, Beal, George, Davis, Gobert
Other candidates (7): Young, Mitchell, Butler, Tatum, Simmons, Sabonis, Vucevic

(that's 22 names before Brown, Adebayo, LaVine, Williamson or Randle comes in the ball park)

I was going to start a new thread, but this is good enough. As it stands, I really do not want Tatum to make an All-NBA Team. Most players who make 3rd Team would never make more than 26-27% max, but Danny made the mistake (maybe he had to) of going all or nothing with the 25%/30% max on Tatum's next contract. That is a difference of $162M compared to $195M. If Tatum had gone all out and taken the league by storm and made 1st Team, then, yeah, awesome; but him just sliding into the last spot on the 3rd Team isn't great as it can really limit the Cs future roster options.

As it stands - Lebron/Giannis/Kawhi/KD are auto-locks for 4 out of the 6 Forward spots on the All-NBA Team. If AD comes back reasonably soon, he should easily get #5, leaving just one spot for a myriad of deserving players. Competing with Tatum, you have George, Butler, Siakam, Sabonis, Zion, Ingram, Randle, etc. It just takes one of them going off post A-S break (like Tatum did last year).

Tatum could easily be that guy again, but the Cs will have to go on a nice run and Tatum (not Brown) will clearly have to lead that run. With a healthy roster and a move with the TPE, the Cs should improve their place in the standings, but that could also come at the expense of Tatum's stats.

[todd_days_41]

I think that we’re missing a Hayward-sized piece.  A guy who can add 17 ppg while being solid in all areas.

I don't think that makes us championship caliber (assuming the league's stars are generally healthy enough to compete). Kemba can be that and we're not true contenders. Hayward was here and we weren't true contenders, even with Kemba.

I doubt we need solid -- I think we need a player that has to be game planned for.

[Vermont Green]

When healthy, the Celtics have three all-star level players, plus one of the best defenders in the league in Smart. Regardless of whether or not one of them is top-5 in the league, that should be enough to contend for a title, especially if they make a mid-season move to strengthen the bench or a power forward/swing type who can start.

The problem with the team isn’t top-end talent, it’s health. Not just Kemba, i am also starting to get worried that Tatum still won’t be all the way back to his post-covid self by the playoffs (given when I’ve seen so far and how little we know about the disease).

This is true.  There are not that many teams that can claim this.  Nets for sure, but most top teams have two and then a host of good but not all star level caliber players.

With Brown and Tatum, what more could you ask?  Young players, locked up to contracts, high level players already, and getting better and more mature every day.  Our roster is ahead of most teams just with that.  And compare us to say the Clippers.  Sure, right now, George and Leonard are more likely to deliver a championship, but for how long will they be better?

Our ("when healthy") third all star, Kemba is of course the question for a few reasons.  First is the obvious one that he is managing what is potentially a very serious knee condition and currently not playing at an all star level (although recently is very close to that).  The second is that his age timeline does not match up with Brown and Tatum.  And third, as a complement to Brown and Tatum, he may not be the best type of player.  An all star big would be better in my mind in terms of roster balance and talent distribution over a shoot/score first PG, even a shoot first PG who has stated he is willing to adjust his game.

But overall, I do agree.  We have a good team/roster.  I feel we are closer then what you would think if you read the majority of the opinions here.  Our top end is really good, young still but really good.  Our bigger issue right now is depth and to some extent say talent distribution.  Depth is much easier to fix then if your problem is lack of top end talent.

[td450]

I think that we’re missing a Hayward-sized piece.  A guy who can add 17 ppg while being solid in all areas.

I don't think that makes us championship caliber (assuming the league's stars are generally healthy enough to compete). Kemba can be that and we're not true contenders. Hayward was here and we weren't true contenders, even with Kemba.

I doubt we need solid -- I think we need a player that has to be game planned for.

The calculation with Tatum and Brown changes every few months, but always towards greater responsibility. What happened with Hayward, or Kemba for that matter last year doesn't necessarily mean the same thing now.

We have two great young players and the challenge is filling the team in around them with contributors who work with what they do best. How good someone is in an absolute sense isn't that important.

[bopna]

we are closer alright...

closer to the 8th seed and being on the brink of  reaching the playoffs than even competing for a top 4 seed.


this team remains crap and will remain so until we get a legit superstar...and yes Tatum and JB are not superstars and will never be...they are all stars with flaws and there are have been so many ex al stars who never won a ring...both are headed in that direction...think Dominique Wilkins type talent.

[Moranis]

When healthy, the Celtics have three all-star level players, plus one of the best defenders in the league in Smart. Regardless of whether or not one of them is top-5 in the league, that should be enough to contend for a title, especially if they make a mid-season move to strengthen the bench or a power forward/swing type who can start.

The problem with the team isn’t top-end talent, it’s health. Not just Kemba, i am also starting to get worried that Tatum still won’t be all the way back to his post-covid self by the playoffs (given when I’ve seen so far and how little we know about the disease).

This is true.  There are not that many teams that can claim this.  Nets for sure, but most top teams have two and then a host of good but not all star level caliber players.

With Brown and Tatum, what more could you ask?  Young players, locked up to contracts, high level players already, and getting better and more mature every day.  Our roster is ahead of most teams just with that.  And compare us to say the Clippers.  Sure, right now, George and Leonard are more likely to deliver a championship, but for how long will they be better?

Our ("when healthy") third all star, Kemba is of course the question for a few reasons.  First is the obvious one that he is managing what is potentially a very serious knee condition and currently not playing at an all star level (although recently is very close to that).  The second is that his age timeline does not match up with Brown and Tatum.  And third, as a complement to Brown and Tatum, he may not be the best type of player.  An all star big would be better in my mind in terms of roster balance and talent distribution over a shoot/score first PG, even a shoot first PG who has stated he is willing to adjust his game.

But overall, I do agree.  We have a good team/roster.  I feel we are closer then what you would think if you read the majority of the opinions here.  Our top end is really good, young still but really good.  Our bigger issue right now is depth and to some extent say talent distribution.  Depth is much easier to fix then if your problem is lack of top end talent.

All Star level and actually making the all star team are not the same thing.  So with that in mind, the Bucks, Nets, and Sixers in the East alone all have 3 all star level players.  Depending what you think of VanVleet, Toronto would as well (though Lowry is aging).  Bam, Butler, and Herro probably classify (or maybe Dragic if not Herro). 

The West is more top heavy so they actually have less of those (in fact I think you could argue there isn't a single team in the West that fits that definition this year), the West just has greater duos and more top heavy teams. 

[GreenWarrior]

We are closer to the bottom than you might think.