Author Topic: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?  (Read 6650 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2019, 09:00:06 PM »

Offline bopna

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1832
  • Tommy Points: 100
We need the Hayward that we saw in the 2 games prior to the last. We need a Hayward that looks to be the boss, that has confidence, that is aggressive. Anything else and it's an early exit.

In other words...we desperately need Utah 2017 Hayward back...yup, the one that torched the Warriors in round 2 of 2017.

Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2019, 06:56:12 AM »

Online ozgod

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5041
  • Tommy Points: 287
To answer the OP's question: in a word, No.

The people ignoring Hayward's entire body of work this season are likely going to be sorely disappointed by his play in the playoffs.

The most likely scenario is that he cements his place on the Jeff Green all-stars where he shows up when he wants to, convinces a lot of people that his best game is his norm,  and is plagued thereafter by inconsistency and mental toughness issues.
 
I'm not saying it's impossible for Hayward to have a couple great games (or even a great series), but he's going to have just as many games where he scores 0,4, or 7 points and makes people question why he's the fifth highest paid player in the NBA.
Do you get some weird kick out of ignoring people when they correct you for refusing to look at Hayward's continued improvement?

All you do is say "he'll go back to sucking again!" but in the 8 games since he came back from concussion that hasn't looked like being the case at all. Averaging 16/6/3 over that period.

I'm pretty sure you'll respond to me saying "just look at the stretch of games before then" and continue to ignore the fact that Hayward had sprained his ankle during that stretch, or that Brad was giving him stupidly inconsistent playing time. But that's just par for the course at this stage.

Not sure why you want him to fail so dearly, especially when it's proven that this season his success = Celtic success. The sweet "I told you so" that you've been looking forward to plastering this forum with come playoff time is not coming through that door.

TP!  I have a tough time understanding how anyone can't see a major difference in Gordon's aggressiveness, athleticism, and confidence over the past few weeks.  I'm perfectly fine throwing away his struggles that took place for most of the season.

He's been making things happen on his own terms, as opposed to relying on teammates and perimeter shooting.  Maybe I'm sucker, but I'm expecting Gordon to carry the momentum right into the playoffs.

It's what happens when people just follow the game via box scores and don't actually watch anything. That, or they are trolling for responses and not interested in reality. Given this poster's previous history regarding Hayward I would suspect the latter. Smarter trolls would come up with new material though  :angel:
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2019, 12:27:25 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • Global Moderator
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 37372
  • Tommy Points: 6088
No labeling of other posters as being trolls. It is against site rules

Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2019, 05:04:59 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

  • NCE
  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1200
  • Tommy Points: 115
To answer the OP's question: in a word, No.

The people ignoring Hayward's entire body of work this season are likely going to be sorely disappointed by his play in the playoffs.

The most likely scenario is that he cements his place on the Jeff Green all-stars where he shows up when he wants to, convinces a lot of people that his best game is his norm,  and is plagued thereafter by inconsistency and mental toughness issues.
 
I'm not saying it's impossible for Hayward to have a couple great games (or even a great series), but he's going to have just as many games where he scores 0,4, or 7 points and makes people question why he's the fifth highest paid player in the NBA.
Do you get some weird kick out of ignoring people when they correct you for refusing to look at Hayward's continued improvement?

All you do is say "he'll go back to sucking again!" but in the 8 games since he came back from concussion that hasn't looked like being the case at all. Averaging 16/6/3 over that period.

I'm pretty sure you'll respond to me saying "just look at the stretch of games before then" and continue to ignore the fact that Hayward had sprained his ankle during that stretch, or that Brad was giving him stupidly inconsistent playing time. But that's just par for the course at this stage.

Not sure why you want him to fail so dearly, especially when it's proven that this season his success = Celtic success. The sweet "I told you so" that you've been looking forward to plastering this forum with come playoff time is not coming through that door.

TP!  I have a tough time understanding how anyone can't see a major difference in Gordon's aggressiveness, athleticism, and confidence over the past few weeks.  I'm perfectly fine throwing away his struggles that took place for most of the season.

He's been making things happen on his own terms, as opposed to relying on teammates and perimeter shooting.  Maybe I'm sucker, but I'm expecting Gordon to carry the momentum right into the playoffs.

It's what happens when people just follow the game via box scores and don't actually watch anything. That, or they are trolling for responses and not interested in reality. Given this poster's previous history regarding Hayward I would suspect the latter. Smarter trolls would come up with new material though  :angel:

Here are the reasons it's unlikely Hayward will be the "secret playoff weapon" everyone is hoping for. 

Reason 1: Averaging under 25 minutes a game Hayward was unable to hold up physically this season.  Even with a minutes restriction, he needed games off consistently.  Many of the games he did play it seemed he was running in molasses while nagged by a series of minor injuries.  Would a reasonable person conclude that at the tail end of a season plagued by injury, deconditioning, and inconsistency jumping a guy's playing time by 25-35% per game and asking him to play every game in the most competitive part of the season would lead to him NOT breaking down either mentally or physically?  No, probably not.

Reason 2: Four games in April (when more than half the teams in the NBA are actively tanking or mentally already in Cancoon) do not equate to the playoffs.  April 3rd against Miami he went 25-8-5 and most impressively went 12/13 from the free throw line.  This created this false narrative that Hayward was now "more aggressive."  In his next game he attempted 3 free throws, in the game after that he attempted 0 free throws, in the game after that - he predictably didn't play due to ankle soreness.  Does you see the pattern there? 

Does it surprise me that Hayward had a great game in April?  Absolutely not.  He averaged 1 or 2 great games a month ALL SEASON long and after those games?  He regressed to the mean and played like himself again.  Do I want Hayward to have a great playoffs? Absolutely I do! But if you're asking a guy who proved all season long he's good for about 25 minutes and 11 points a game to be your playoff hero all you're really doing is setting him up to be your playoff scapegoat. 

That being said, I fully expect the intractable Brad Stevens to try to play Hayward 32-38 minutes a night in the playoffs, followed by him breaking down by the end of round 2 and leading to everyone being upset that Rozier and Brown aren't as ready as last year to handle vastly increased minutes at the drop of a hat.
 


Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2019, 07:26:13 PM »

Online ozgod

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5041
  • Tommy Points: 287
You actually tried to provide some rationale for your views this time so I will respond in kind.


Here are the reasons it's unlikely Hayward will be the "secret playoff weapon" everyone is hoping for. 

Reason 1: Averaging under 25 minutes a game Hayward was unable to hold up physically this season.  Even with a minutes restriction, he needed games off consistently.  Many of the games he did play it seemed he was running in molasses while nagged by a series of minor injuries.  Would a reasonable person conclude that at the tail end of a season plagued by injury, deconditioning, and inconsistency jumping a guy's playing time by 25-35% per game and asking him to play every game in the most competitive part of the season would lead to him NOT breaking down either mentally or physically?  No, probably not.

The reason Hayward was playing 25 mins a game was because a) to manage his workload throughout the season coming back from injury; and b) due to our loaded roster. Contrary to being unable to hold up physically, he's actually improved physically this season. And he hasn't "needed games off consistently". He is at 72 games for the season which is around where he has always been for the past 9 years, except for the 2016 season when he played 80. Of the 10 games he missed, 3 were due to concussion protocol, 1 was due to his ankle sprain. I would hardly call missing 6 games "consistently missing games".

Also, a reasonable person would take into account what the eye test has provided, which is the fact that for the past couple of months, Hayward has been much more aggressive and comfortable in his role than at the start of the season. But now let's look at stats that support the eye test.

Quote
Reason 2: Four games in April (when more than half the teams in the NBA are actively tanking or mentally already in Cancoon) do not equate to the playoffs.  April 3rd against Miami he went 25-8-5 and most impressively went 12/13 from the free throw line.  This created this false narrative that Hayward was now "more aggressive."  In his next game he attempted 3 free throws, in the game after that he attempted 0 free throws, in the game after that - he predictably didn't play due to ankle soreness.  Does you see the pattern there? 

Does it surprise me that Hayward had a great game in April?  Absolutely not.  He averaged 1 or 2 great games a month ALL SEASON long and after those games?  He regressed to the mean and played like himself again.  Do I want Hayward to have a great playoffs? Absolutely I do! But if you're asking a guy who proved all season long he's good for about 25 minutes and 11 points a game to be your playoff hero all you're really doing is setting him up to be your playoff scapegoat. 

You probably checked Basketball-reference and saw that he was averaging 18ppg in April and assumed that that's the only thing that's caused people to have more confidence in him. I'm not talking just 4 games in April (though the 4 games in April were pretty good). His improvement dates back to the All Star break. That's a sample size of 20+ games, which is a quarter of the season. Here's a comparison of some key metrics pre- and post-All Star break:

Code: [Select]
Metrics Pre ASB Post ASB

Mins 26 25.5

Per 36
PPG 15.5 17.2
RPG 6.4 4.8
APG 4.8 4.4
FGA 12.5 11.6
FTA 3.3 4.4

Efficiency
FG% 43.8% 55.1%
3FG% 33.7% 31.7%
eFG% 51.2% 59.3%
%PITP 31.1% 47.4%
Usage % 18.3% 17.3%

His per-36 post the All Star break is 17.2 / 4.8. / 4.4 and his net rating over that period (4.5) is better than anyone on the team who played at least 30 games, other than Al Horford with 7.5. And that's with a usage % of 17.5. His FG% is up by 12% to 55.1%. His eFG over that period is 59.3% which is the best on the team, again ahead of Al Horford with 59%. And he's more aggressive, as you can see his PITP% went from 31.1% to 47.4%.

Basically, he has become more efficient, shot a higher percentage on a lower number of shots (and better shots), and got to the free throw line more. His assist % has dropped slightly because he's looking for his shot more and not just shoveling the ball on. And he's probably still only 85% back yet. He'll be better next year. You can blame him for only having 4.4 FTA per 36 per game, though that's actually the best on the team. This team just doesn't get to the free throw line as much but he gets there more than anyone else.

As mentioned earlier, these stats are all supported by the eye test - they confirm what people have been seeing, and have been commenting on about Gordon in the match threads. Everyone sees his improvement (except you). You seem to be stuck on the October version of Hayward.

Also, tanking teams? Please. All 4 teams we played in April had a lot at stake - Miami and Orlando trying to make the playoffs and Indiana trying to get home court advantage.

Quote
That being said, I fully expect the intractable Brad Stevens to try to play Hayward 32-38 minutes a night in the playoffs, followed by him breaking down by the end of round 2 and leading to everyone being upset that Rozier and Brown aren't as ready as last year to handle vastly increased minutes at the drop of a hat.
 

Personally I hope Brad plays Gordon for 35 min a game. The more time he has to influence our playoff games the better for our team.

Your comments lead me to believe, because you keep harping on about Gordon being a max player, that you expect him to somehow score 25 ppg "because that's what other max players are scoring". I've said all season, it won't happen on this team, not with all the touches and shot attempts that his teammates need. This isn't a typical Big 2/3 + roleplayers team, it's an ensemble team with a lot of players who think they are main options. It's more like San Antonio 2014 than Golden State. So if being a "secret weapon" means expecting Gordon to all of a sudden average 25+ ppg then that's unlikely on this team.

But that's not what I'm hoping for. I want to see more of what we've seen post All Star break - someone who is not afraid to go into contact, who shoots the ball efficiently and with confidence, doesn't jack up shots for the sake of it, and is a good distributor. He's the type of player, like Horford, who adds value to a team because he plays the right way and makes the right decisions, not just necessarily because he scores points. It takes astute observers of the game will look beyond the box score to see that value.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 07:35:14 PM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2019, 07:30:05 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • Global Moderator
  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10296
  • Tommy Points: 466
You actually tried to provide some rationale for your views this time so I will respond in kind.


Here are the reasons it's unlikely Hayward will be the "secret playoff weapon" everyone is hoping for. 

Reason 1: Averaging under 25 minutes a game Hayward was unable to hold up physically this season.  Even with a minutes restriction, he needed games off consistently.  Many of the games he did play it seemed he was running in molasses while nagged by a series of minor injuries.  Would a reasonable person conclude that at the tail end of a season plagued by injury, deconditioning, and inconsistency jumping a guy's playing time by 25-35% per game and asking him to play every game in the most competitive part of the season would lead to him NOT breaking down either mentally or physically?  No, probably not.

The reason Hayward was playing 25 mins a game was because a) to manage his workload throughout the season coming back from injury; and b) due to our loaded roster. Contrary to being unable to hold up physically, he's actually improved physically this season. And he hasn't "needed games off consistently". He is at 72 games for the season which is around where he has always been for the past 9 years, except for the 2016 season when he played 80. Of the 10 games he missed, 3 were due to concussion protocol, 1 was due to his ankle sprain. I would hardly call missing 6 games "consistently missing games".

Also, a reasonable person would take into account what the eye test has provided, which is the fact that for the past couple of months, Hayward has been much more aggressive and comfortable in his role than at the start of the season.

Quote
Reason 2: Four games in April (when more than half the teams in the NBA are actively tanking or mentally already in Cancoon) do not equate to the playoffs.  April 3rd against Miami he went 25-8-5 and most impressively went 12/13 from the free throw line.  This created this false narrative that Hayward was now "more aggressive."  In his next game he attempted 3 free throws, in the game after that he attempted 0 free throws, in the game after that - he predictably didn't play due to ankle soreness.  Does you see the pattern there? 

Does it surprise me that Hayward had a great game in April?  Absolutely not.  He averaged 1 or 2 great games a month ALL SEASON long and after those games?  He regressed to the mean and played like himself again.  Do I want Hayward to have a great playoffs? Absolutely I do! But if you're asking a guy who proved all season long he's good for about 25 minutes and 11 points a game to be your playoff hero all you're really doing is setting him up to be your playoff scapegoat. 

You probably checked Basketball-reference and saw that he was averaging 18ppg in April and assumed that that's the only thing that's caused people to have more confidence in him. I'm not talking just 4 games in April (though the 4 games in April were pretty good). His improvement dates back to the All Star break. That's a sample size of 20+ games, which is a quarter of the season. Here's a comparison of some key metrics pre- and post-All Star break:

Code: [Select]
Metrics Pre ASB Post ASB

Mins 26 25.5

Per 36
PPG 15.5 17.2
RPG 6.4 4.8
APG 4.8 4.4
FGA 12.5 11.6
FTA 3.3 4.4

Efficiency
FG% 43.8% 55.1%
3FG% 33.7% 31.7%
eFG% 51.2% 59.3%
%PITP 31.1% 47.4%
Usage % 18.3% 17.3%

His per-36 post the All Star break is 17.2 / 4.8. / 4.4 and his net rating over that period (4.5) is better than anyone on the team who played at least 30 games, other than Al Horford with 7.5. And that's with a usage % of 17.5. His FG% is up by 12% to 55.1%. His eFG over that period is 59.3% which is the best on the team, again ahead of Al Horford with 59%. And he's more aggressive, as you can see his PITP% went from 31.1% to 47.4%.

Basically, he has become more efficient, shot a higher percentage on a lower number of shots (and better shots), and got to the free throw line more. His assist % has dropped slightly because he's looking for his shot more and not just shoveling the ball on. You can blame him for only having 4.4 FTA per 36 per game, though that's actually the best on the team. This team just doesn't get to the free throw line as much but he gets there more than anyone else.

The thing is, these stats are all supported by the eye test - they confirm what people have been seeing, and have been commenting on in the match threads. Everyone sees his improvement (except you).

Also, tanking teams? Please. All 4 teams we played in April had a lot at stake - Miami and Orlando trying to make the playoffs and Indiana trying to get home court advantage.

Quote
That being said, I fully expect the intractable Brad Stevens to try to play Hayward 32-38 minutes a night in the playoffs, followed by him breaking down by the end of round 2 and leading to everyone being upset that Rozier and Brown aren't as ready as last year to handle vastly increased minutes at the drop of a hat.
 

Personally I hope Brad plays Gordon for 35 min a game. The more time he has to influence our playoff games the better for our team.

I think, because you keep harping on about Gordon being a max player, that you expect him to somehow score 25 ppg "because that's what other max players are scoring". I've said all season, it won't happen on this team, not with all the touches and shot attempts that his teammates need. This isn't a typical Big 2/3 + roleplayers team, it's an ensemble team with a lot of players who think they are main options. It's more like San Antonio 2014 than Golden State. So those people expecting Gordon to all of a sudden be something like that will be disappointed. He's the type of player, like Horford, who adds value to a team because he plays the right way and makes the right decisions. It takes astute observers of the game will look beyond the box score to see that value.
TP. I'm looking forward to the response to this, or the more likely lack thereof

Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2019, 08:37:20 PM »

Offline MichiganAdam

  • Aron Baynes
  • Posts: 141
  • Tommy Points: 7
i88.  Well said.  Lets hope it continues and blossoms with more minutes due to short rotation and no smart in beginning of playoffs.

Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2019, 10:06:54 PM »

Offline Mahk E Mahk

  • Semi Ojeleye
  • Posts: 31
  • Tommy Points: 6
  • If you ain't in it to win it then get the hell out
You actually tried to provide some rationale for your views this time so I will respond in kind.


Here are the reasons it's unlikely Hayward will be the "secret playoff weapon" everyone is hoping for. 

Reason 1: Averaging under 25 minutes a game Hayward was unable to hold up physically this season.  Even with a minutes restriction, he needed games off consistently.  Many of the games he did play it seemed he was running in molasses while nagged by a series of minor injuries.  Would a reasonable person conclude that at the tail end of a season plagued by injury, deconditioning, and inconsistency jumping a guy's playing time by 25-35% per game and asking him to play every game in the most competitive part of the season would lead to him NOT breaking down either mentally or physically?  No, probably not.

The reason Hayward was playing 25 mins a game was because a) to manage his workload throughout the season coming back from injury; and b) due to our loaded roster. Contrary to being unable to hold up physically, he's actually improved physically this season. And he hasn't "needed games off consistently". He is at 72 games for the season which is around where he has always been for the past 9 years, except for the 2016 season when he played 80. Of the 10 games he missed, 3 were due to concussion protocol, 1 was due to his ankle sprain. I would hardly call missing 6 games "consistently missing games".

Also, a reasonable person would take into account what the eye test has provided, which is the fact that for the past couple of months, Hayward has been much more aggressive and comfortable in his role than at the start of the season. But now let's look at stats that support the eye test.

Quote
Reason 2: Four games in April (when more than half the teams in the NBA are actively tanking or mentally already in Cancoon) do not equate to the playoffs.  April 3rd against Miami he went 25-8-5 and most impressively went 12/13 from the free throw line.  This created this false narrative that Hayward was now "more aggressive."  In his next game he attempted 3 free throws, in the game after that he attempted 0 free throws, in the game after that - he predictably didn't play due to ankle soreness.  Does you see the pattern there? 

Does it surprise me that Hayward had a great game in April?  Absolutely not.  He averaged 1 or 2 great games a month ALL SEASON long and after those games?  He regressed to the mean and played like himself again.  Do I want Hayward to have a great playoffs? Absolutely I do! But if you're asking a guy who proved all season long he's good for about 25 minutes and 11 points a game to be your playoff hero all you're really doing is setting him up to be your playoff scapegoat. 

You probably checked Basketball-reference and saw that he was averaging 18ppg in April and assumed that that's the only thing that's caused people to have more confidence in him. I'm not talking just 4 games in April (though the 4 games in April were pretty good). His improvement dates back to the All Star break. That's a sample size of 20+ games, which is a quarter of the season. Here's a comparison of some key metrics pre- and post-All Star break:

Code: [Select]
Metrics Pre ASB Post ASB

Mins 26 25.5

Per 36
PPG 15.5 17.2
RPG 6.4 4.8
APG 4.8 4.4
FGA 12.5 11.6
FTA 3.3 4.4

Efficiency
FG% 43.8% 55.1%
3FG% 33.7% 31.7%
eFG% 51.2% 59.3%
%PITP 31.1% 47.4%
Usage % 18.3% 17.3%

His per-36 post the All Star break is 17.2 / 4.8. / 4.4 and his net rating over that period (4.5) is better than anyone on the team who played at least 30 games, other than Al Horford with 7.5. And that's with a usage % of 17.5. His FG% is up by 12% to 55.1%. His eFG over that period is 59.3% which is the best on the team, again ahead of Al Horford with 59%. And he's more aggressive, as you can see his PITP% went from 31.1% to 47.4%.

Basically, he has become more efficient, shot a higher percentage on a lower number of shots (and better shots), and got to the free throw line more. His assist % has dropped slightly because he's looking for his shot more and not just shoveling the ball on. And he's probably still only 85% back yet. He'll be better next year. You can blame him for only having 4.4 FTA per 36 per game, though that's actually the best on the team. This team just doesn't get to the free throw line as much but he gets there more than anyone else.

As mentioned earlier, these stats are all supported by the eye test - they confirm what people have been seeing, and have been commenting on about Gordon in the match threads. Everyone sees his improvement (except you). You seem to be stuck on the October version of Hayward.

Also, tanking teams? Please. All 4 teams we played in April had a lot at stake - Miami and Orlando trying to make the playoffs and Indiana trying to get home court advantage.

Quote
That being said, I fully expect the intractable Brad Stevens to try to play Hayward 32-38 minutes a night in the playoffs, followed by him breaking down by the end of round 2 and leading to everyone being upset that Rozier and Brown aren't as ready as last year to handle vastly increased minutes at the drop of a hat.
 

Personally I hope Brad plays Gordon for 35 min a game. The more time he has to influence our playoff games the better for our team.

Your comments lead me to believe, because you keep harping on about Gordon being a max player, that you expect him to somehow score 25 ppg "because that's what other max players are scoring". I've said all season, it won't happen on this team, not with all the touches and shot attempts that his teammates need. This isn't a typical Big 2/3 + roleplayers team, it's an ensemble team with a lot of players who think they are main options. It's more like San Antonio 2014 than Golden State. So if being a "secret weapon" means expecting Gordon to all of a sudden average 25+ ppg then that's unlikely on this team.

But that's not what I'm hoping for. I want to see more of what we've seen post All Star break - someone who is not afraid to go into contact, who shoots the ball efficiently and with confidence, doesn't jack up shots for the sake of it, and is a good distributor. He's the type of player, like Horford, who adds value to a team because he plays the right way and makes the right decisions, not just necessarily because he scores points. It takes astute observers of the game will look beyond the box score to see that value.

iím relatively new here and had yet to give a tp. this post absolutely earned it. well done!

Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2019, 08:48:38 AM »

Offline philr13

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 210
  • Tommy Points: 20

Here are the reasons it's unlikely Hayward will be the "secret playoff weapon" everyone is hoping for. 


Your reasons are based on his season averages.

If this were a normal healthy season for Hayward I could understand using his season averages in your argument, but under the circumstances I don't think this works. He's been in a rehab season and understandably had mixed results statistically.

As the OP stated, he's played very well over the last 10 games. Maybe someone has his per-36-minutes stats for that period, but I'm sure he's been crushing it.

The real test for Hayward will be in the second round and beyond, assuming we get by Indy. I don't think he's a secret, but he could be a difference maker.

Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2019, 09:22:26 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17617
  • Tommy Points: 1161
Quote
Here are the reasons it's unlikely Hayward will be the "secret playoff weapon" everyone is hoping for.

I think your going to be proven wrong on this one.

Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2019, 09:28:00 AM »

Offline Green-18

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Tommy Points: 121
To answer the OP's question: in a word, No.

The people ignoring Hayward's entire body of work this season are likely going to be sorely disappointed by his play in the playoffs.

The most likely scenario is that he cements his place on the Jeff Green all-stars where he shows up when he wants to, convinces a lot of people that his best game is his norm,  and is plagued thereafter by inconsistency and mental toughness issues.
 
I'm not saying it's impossible for Hayward to have a couple great games (or even a great series), but he's going to have just as many games where he scores 0,4, or 7 points and makes people question why he's the fifth highest paid player in the NBA.
Do you get some weird kick out of ignoring people when they correct you for refusing to look at Hayward's continued improvement?

All you do is say "he'll go back to sucking again!" but in the 8 games since he came back from concussion that hasn't looked like being the case at all. Averaging 16/6/3 over that period.

I'm pretty sure you'll respond to me saying "just look at the stretch of games before then" and continue to ignore the fact that Hayward had sprained his ankle during that stretch, or that Brad was giving him stupidly inconsistent playing time. But that's just par for the course at this stage.

Not sure why you want him to fail so dearly, especially when it's proven that this season his success = Celtic success. The sweet "I told you so" that you've been looking forward to plastering this forum with come playoff time is not coming through that door.

TP!  I have a tough time understanding how anyone can't see a major difference in Gordon's aggressiveness, athleticism, and confidence over the past few weeks.  I'm perfectly fine throwing away his struggles that took place for most of the season.

He's been making things happen on his own terms, as opposed to relying on teammates and perimeter shooting.  Maybe I'm sucker, but I'm expecting Gordon to carry the momentum right into the playoffs.

It's what happens when people just follow the game via box scores and don't actually watch anything. That, or they are trolling for responses and not interested in reality. Given this poster's previous history regarding Hayward I would suspect the latter. Smarter trolls would come up with new material though  :angel:

Here are the reasons it's unlikely Hayward will be the "secret playoff weapon" everyone is hoping for. 

Reason 1: Averaging under 25 minutes a game Hayward was unable to hold up physically this season.  Even with a minutes restriction, he needed games off consistently.  Many of the games he did play it seemed he was running in molasses while nagged by a series of minor injuries.  Would a reasonable person conclude that at the tail end of a season plagued by injury, deconditioning, and inconsistency jumping a guy's playing time by 25-35% per game and asking him to play every game in the most competitive part of the season would lead to him NOT breaking down either mentally or physically?  No, probably not.

Reason 2: Four games in April (when more than half the teams in the NBA are actively tanking or mentally already in Cancoon) do not equate to the playoffs.  April 3rd against Miami he went 25-8-5 and most impressively went 12/13 from the free throw line.  This created this false narrative that Hayward was now "more aggressive."  In his next game he attempted 3 free throws, in the game after that he attempted 0 free throws, in the game after that - he predictably didn't play due to ankle soreness.  Does you see the pattern there? 

Does it surprise me that Hayward had a great game in April?  Absolutely not.  He averaged 1 or 2 great games a month ALL SEASON long and after those games?  He regressed to the mean and played like himself again.  Do I want Hayward to have a great playoffs? Absolutely I do! But if you're asking a guy who proved all season long he's good for about 25 minutes and 11 points a game to be your playoff hero all you're really doing is setting him up to be your playoff scapegoat. 

That being said, I fully expect the intractable Brad Stevens to try to play Hayward 32-38 minutes a night in the playoffs, followed by him breaking down by the end of round 2 and leading to everyone being upset that Rozier and Brown aren't as ready as last year to handle vastly increased minutes at the drop of a hat.
 

Your durability concerns are reasonable, especially if Stevens pushes Hayward to 35+ MPG.  I'm just far more optimistic that Stevens will manage things properly with no back-to-backs.    Where you lose me is the "false narrative" about Hayward's aggressiveness.  Who cares if Hayward only took 3 free throws against Indiana when 7 of his 9 buckets came inside the paint!  5 of his 8 makes against the Magic were also inside the paint.










Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2019, 12:38:50 PM »

Offline GreenCoffeeBean

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 610
  • Tommy Points: 34
I say we introduce him into the court as Jordan Haywood. Then he would be a secret weapon. Teams would have no idea it was GH.

Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2019, 12:42:29 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12706
  • Tommy Points: 1112
  • On To Banner 18!
Yes. Hayward and Jaylen Brown both are.

I expect Playoff Kyrie + Horford to show up, as will Tatum. But if those two can step up and play like they have as of late, we can truly make a deep playoff run.

My biggest concern though is Rozier and Morris. If those guys are legit just taking away shots from Hayward + Brown and playing low IQ basketball, that'll hurt this team. Maybe if Rozier channels his "Scary Terry" form of last April/May, it'll be fine, but otherwise these two can cost us in the playoffs if they don't produce and play selfish (for a new contract).
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2019, 01:28:50 PM »

Offline Green-18

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Tommy Points: 121
Yes. Hayward and Jaylen Brown both are.

I expect Playoff Kyrie + Horford to show up, as will Tatum. But if those two can step up and play like they have as of late, we can truly make a deep playoff run.

My biggest concern though is Rozier and Morris. If those guys are legit just taking away shots from Hayward + Brown and playing low IQ basketball, that'll hurt this team. Maybe if Rozier channels his "Scary Terry" form of last April/May, it'll be fine, but otherwise these two can cost us in the playoffs if they don't produce and play selfish (for a new contract).

I share the same concerns.  Fortunately, Brad has enough roster flexibility to limit the minutes of Rozier if necessary.  Kyrie routinely played 38+ MPG during close playoff games while he was with the Cavs.  Hayward, Jaylen, and Tatum can fill most of the minutes at the 2 and 3. 

As for Morris, there's no way around playing him less than 25+ MPG.  Let's just hope that his shot is falling with some consistency.  He had way too many duds during last years playoffs. 

Re: is Hayward our secret weapon in the playoffs?
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2019, 03:23:49 PM »

Offline Mahk E Mahk

  • Semi Ojeleye
  • Posts: 31
  • Tommy Points: 6
  • If you ain't in it to win it then get the hell out
I say we introduce him into the court as Jordan Haywood. Then he would be a secret weapon. Teams would have no idea it was GH.

i donít know exactly why, but this made me legitimately lol. well done and thank you.

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsStrong Forums.

Community

Signup to win FREE tickets

* indicates required