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Which C's will make Team USA’s 2019 FIBA World Cup roster? (pick up to 4)

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Author Topic: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]  (Read 49180 times)

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Re: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]
« Reply #720 on: September 13, 2019, 12:42:12 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Colangelo says he will remember who backed out when it comes time to pick the Olympic team, but I find myself questioning his decision to not even let Carmelo Anthony show up to camp far more.  I think Melo could have made a huge difference on this team and Melo apparently wanted to play, but wasn't even given a chance.  Now with an embarrassing loss, I wonder what might have been had the US actually had someone that has been there done that.  Someone that had put a team on his back and carried them to glory (no one on the US team even did what he did at Syracuse).  I get that Melo is older and past his prime, but that US team had no leader.  It had no one it could turn to for guidance, leadership, or even just a crucial basket.  And for all of Melo's faults, especially in the NBA, he has probably been America's greatest international competitor.  The US needed someone like him on that team. 
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Re: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]
« Reply #721 on: September 13, 2019, 01:23:32 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Colangelo says he will remember who backed out when it comes time to pick the Olympic team, but I find myself questioning his decision to not even let Carmelo Anthony show up to camp far more.  I think Melo could have made a huge difference on this team and Melo apparently wanted to play, but wasn't even given a chance.  Now with an embarrassing loss, I wonder what might have been had the US actually had someone that has been there done that.  Someone that had put a team on his back and carried them to glory (no one on the US team even did what he did at Syracuse).  I get that Melo is older and past his prime, but that US team had no leader.  It had no one it could turn to for guidance, leadership, or even just a crucial basket.  And for all of Melo's faults, especially in the NBA, he has probably been America's greatest international competitor.  The US needed someone like him on that team.

Interesting. I wonder if Tatum would have responded in big ways if he had been healthy. I think we started to see some of that in the earlier games.
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Re: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]
« Reply #722 on: September 13, 2019, 04:40:12 PM »

Offline Walker Wiggle

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You have to be a certain age to feel this way I suppose, but this tournament really reminded me of 2002. If you don't remember it firsthand, just read this excerpt from the wiki page. Celtics fans will remember this as the tournament where NBA players were defeated for the first time, and Pierce famously clashed with head coach George Carl and was subsequently labeled as selfish and a ball hog.

The reason this summer's experience is so reminiscent of back then is because 2002 was on the heels of a 10-year run of dominance for USA basketball after the US started sending pros in 1992 (that is, the original "Dream Team"). Basically they obliterated everyone for a couple Olympics, then guys started not participating, and eventually they got humiliated when so many guys sat out (Kobe, Shaq, Garnett, etc.) that it was mostly B-level players.

These things go in cycles. Eventually the US program will get its act together, and some of the American stars will start getting patriotic (ie Lebron and Wade following the 2004 Olympics bronze) and start whooping *** again. But right now, especially with guys prioritizing rest in the offseason, we are in a down cycle. The point is, this is not the first time we've seen this.

Read this and tell me I'm wrong:

Quote
The 2002 team competed in the World Championship in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA. Coached by George Karl, the team finished a surprisingly disappointing sixth in the competition. During the tournament, Argentina defeated the US in the second preliminary round group stage, thus becoming the first team ever to defeat a USA team composed of NBA players. Yugoslavia knocked out the US in the quarterfinals, becoming the first team ever to defeat USA team of NBA players in knockout stage. Then Spain repeated the outcome in the 5th place playoff. To a greater degree than in 2000, a number of top NBA players declined to participate, forcing USA Basketball to resort to picking mostly second-tier players. George Karl had a dispute with Paul Pierce, one of the few superstars on the team, which led to Karl benching Pierce, the team's leading scorer, in Team USA's final game. The group has been considered as one of sport's greatest flops, as they failed to produce as previous teams had. The United States lost 3 games in the tournament to countries with current or future NBA stars, like Argentina (led by Manu Ginóbili), Yugoslavia (led by Peja Stojaković and Vlade Divac) and Spain (led by Pau Gasol).

Two NBA superstars, Ray Allen and Jason Kidd, accepted roles to play on the World Championship team, but were unable to play on that team due to injuries. Many other superstars, including Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kevin Garnett, turned down invitations to play in that tournament.

The close outcome of 2000 and the humiliating results of 2002 prompted a number of NBA superstars to agree to join the team for the FIBA Americas Championship 2003, dubbed as the Dream Team IV,[32]which the squad was required to participate in to qualify for the 2004 Summer Olympics. The team easily cruised to a first-place finish, earning it a spot in Athens, Greece, the following summer.

However, the dominant team that competed in 2003 could not be kept together. Nine of its 12 players elected not to participate in Athens. The new team consisted of some young NBA stars early in their careers, such as Dwyane Wade, LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony. Only Richard Jefferson, Tim Duncan and Allen Iverson were part of the 2003 FIBA Americas San Juan gold medal team. The team was coached by Larry Brown.

After struggles in several exhibition matches, the vulnerability of the 2004 team was confirmed when Puerto Rico defeated them 92–73, from which they earned the nickname "Nightmare team" (as mock opposed to the Dream Team concept), in the first game of the Olympic tournament in Athens. The 19 point defeat was the most lopsided loss for the US in the history of international competition. After the game, Larry Brown had strong comments about his coaching performance: "I'm humiliated, not for the loss -- I can always deal with wins and losses -- but I'm disappointed because I had a job to do as a coach, to get us to understand how we're supposed to play as a team and act as a team, and I don't think we did that".

After winning close games against Greece and Australia, The USA fell to Lithuania, dropping to 2–2 in the Olympic tournament. Even after an 89–53 win over Angola, the Americans entered the knockout rounds in fourth place due to goal average, the lowest seed of their group. The Americans faced undefeated Spain in their quarterfinal game, winning 102–94.

However, the semifinal match saw the team defeated by Argentina 89–81, ending the United States' hold on the gold medal. The USA did rebound to capture the bronze medal by defeating Lithuania. Still, it marked only the third time that an American team failed to win gold (excluding the 1980 Moscow Olympics boycott), and the first time for an American team composed of NBA players.

2006–2016
Following the disappointments in 2002 and 2004, USA Basketball appointed Jerry Colangelo to be solely responsible for selecting the team. Colangelo made it clear that he would ask players for a three-year commitment—the 2006 FIBA World Championship and the 2008 Summer Olympics. In the 2006 Worlds, the team was eliminated by Greece in the semifinal, losing the game 101–95. The head coach was Duke University's Mike Krzyzewski, with assistants Jim Boeheim, Mike D'Antoni, and Nate McMillan. While some prominent players, such as Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, stated that they did not plan to play for the team, superstars Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant and LeBron James publicly announced their commitment for the 2006 Worlds and the ensuing 2008 Olympics. Wade, James and Carmelo Anthony were named captains of the 2006 USA World Championship Team.

The United States Team, dubbed Dream Team V or the Redeem Team, dominated Group B in pool play, defeating China, Angola, Greece, world champion Spain, and Germany by an average of 32.2 points. After finishing first in their group, the USA earned the right to play the fourth-place finishers in Group A, Australia. The United States soundly defeated Australia 116–85 in the quarterfinal. Next up for the Americans in the semifinals was the 2004 Olympic gold medalist Argentina, led by Manu Ginóbili – the team that had beaten them in the semifinals four years prior. However, Ginóbili was hobbled by an ankle injury and only played sparing minutes in the first half. Behind Carmelo Anthony's 21 points, the USA defeated Argentina 101–81 to reach the gold medal game.

On August 24, the United States defeated Spain 118–107 to capture the Olympic gold medal with the electrifying spark by team U.S.A. leading scorer Dwyane Wade adding 27 points with 4 3's and 100% shooting inside the line. The victory ended an eight-year drought at major international competitions (Olympics & World Championships) with the first win since 2000.

Re: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]
« Reply #723 on: September 14, 2019, 12:04:24 AM »

Offline ozgod

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You have to be a certain age to feel this way I suppose, but this tournament really reminded me of 2002. If you don't remember it firsthand, just read this excerpt from the wiki page. Celtics fans will remember this as the tournament where NBA players were defeated for the first time, and Pierce famously clashed with head coach George Carl and was subsequently labeled as selfish and a ball hog.


I'm old enough to remember 1992, as well as all the games leading up to 2002. 2002 was much more of a shock for me than 2019 because it had been only a decade ago that the Dream Team ran roughshod over everyone on their way to gold in Barcelona, beating everyone even before they stepped on the court. Same in Atlanta. This was an article in the New York Times on July 23, 1996 (I will post some snippets, full article is available via the link):

Quote
Sports of The Times;Competitors Without a Competition
By William C. Rhoden

WAGERS were being taken on how badly Dream Team III would route Angola last night in Game 2 of its gold-medal tour. Twenty-five points? Thirty? Thirty-five? Forty?

The winning number last night was 33 points: United States 87, Angola 54.

This has become the essence of men's basketball competition at the Olympics: half seminar, half circus.

In many ways, the United States has been reduced to Olympic tinsel. The Americans are here to add star quality, good looks and entertainment to the Games. But in one sense, the team fits perfectly with these Olympics, which have become a carnival of excess in congested Atlanta. They do nothing for the essence of the Olympics: competition.

The other countries beat each others' brains out, and then attend a master class against the United States.

"Their presence here takes away one of three medals," said Toni Kukoc, star of Croatia and the Chicago Bulls.

Last night, in a familiar pattern, Angola stayed close early -- 26-21, 31-24, 38-31 -- but with little more than five minutes left in the game, the Dream Team had a 70-47 lead. And away they went.

The essence of the Olympics, the saving grace of the Games, is intensity and parity of competition: from archery to wrestling, the Olympics are distinguished by a sense of tension to achieve the gold. The only source of tension entering last night's game was whether Herlander Coimbra of Angola would get revenge against the Dream Team's Charles Barkley for something that happened four years ago. During the 1992 Games in Barcelona, Barkley set off an international firestorm when he elbowed Coimbra. To make matters worse, Barkley said Coimbra might be "hiding a spear."

"Besides entertainment -- and filling the arena -- I don't think they add anything" Radja said. "The games are boring; they just beat teams by 30, 40 points. The beauty of the game is competition."

On Saturday, Croatia lost to Lithuania in a dramatic overtime game, despite 26 points from Kukoc.

"That's exciting," Radja said. That's what people like to see."

People like to see the Dream Team, too: half come hoping to see it lose, half come hoping to see it win in a dunkathon. So far all they have seen is sloppy play and semi-routs.

Croatia will play Dream Team III on Sunday, and Radja is not looking forward to it.

"I know what's going to happen when we play them," he said. "They are going to beat us by 30 points."

Kukoc doesn't quite agree with his teammate. He looks forward to watching the Americans and thinks that the only way the world's players will improve is by playing against superior competition.

"That's the way you really know how far you have to go," he said after Croatia's 32-point victory over China yesterday.

"I think it'll take a few Olympic Games," Kukoc said. "But, who knows?"

https://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/23/sports/sports-of-the-times-competitors-without-a-competition.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Little did Kukoc know that the very next Olympics, a team led by Vince Carter and Kevin Garnett and featuring Jason Kidd, Alonzo Mourning, Gary Payton and Ray Allen among others would squeak out a 2 point win against Lithuania in the semifinals and a 10 point win against France in the finals. (I was living in Sydney at the time and saw that game against Lithuania, it was a classic). That team also featured a lot of withdrawals - 14 in all, including Kobe, Shaq, Webber, Pippen, Stockton, Duncan, Iverson just to name some. Then two years later, 2002. That, for me, was when it became clear that preparation was important, you couldn't just out-talent your way to victory, particularly if your top talent isn't there. From The Ringer, regarding Team USA's loss against Argentina:

Quote
You could feel the haughtiness emanate from their casual strides in the full-court press, as though they were playing against high school kids. They were burned repeatedly on backdoor cuts and drive-and-kicks due to missed rotations that occurred because they didn’t think enough of the competition to seal off the weak side. After Team USA’s first loss, against Argentina, Manu Ginobili explained how it happened. “We know each other,” Ginobili said. “We know where picks will be, when to cut for a pass. Apparently [Team USA] did not.” That remains the meanest **** Manu has ever said in his life.

https://www.theringer.com/2016/8/5/16044966/team-usa-basketball-2002-world-championship-f63fa0a6e06f

After that it took a few years for Team USA to get its act together, for players to take it seriously - Krzyzewski for the long term, a lot of structural changes happened around USA Basketball, moves were made to try and attract the top talent again, etc. Paid off in 2008, 2010, 2012 and 2016, though you could see by the end of that period that the gap was closing again, with some close games in Rio.

But back to your original point, with this team, Team USA 2019, I didn't feel anywhere near the level of shock that I did in 2002. Back then, like Chuck Daly and Lenny Wilkens I thought Team USA would never be beaten as long as they had NBA players. But after 2002, and seeing how the world has narrowed the gap, I couldn't even be certain that this iteration of Team USA would even make the medal round, much less win the gold - which they didn't. Just not enough quality. Let's be honest, if you picked a team for the tournament how many Americans would be on it? Maybe Kemba and Donovan? JT didn't play enough and JB didn't shine enough when it counted. Would players like Plumlee and Lopez even make the rotation for Serbia or France? And the preparation, even though it was much better than 2002, just wasn't enough for players who didn't know each other's styles that well. Some of these other countries have been playing together for years.

But I agree that things are cyclical. I'm sure the Olympics will be a different story. Hopefully this spurs some changes and stirs some players out of apathy and increases participation levels. But even so the days of rolling over the opposition and expecting a win no matter what are over I think. Any victory has to be earned. And that's not a bad thing, if you like basketball:

Quote
But winning gold wasn't even that easy for the Redeem Team, Bryant pointed out. That team with Bryant, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh, Chris Paul, Jason Kidd and more beat Spain 118-107 for the gold medal, but it took some heroics - a four-point play by Bryant with about 3 minutes left among them - to pull away in the final moments.

''We needed a hell of a fourth quarter to beat Spain,'' Bryant said. ''And that was a hell of a team we had. We still needed a really late push to beat Spain. So I say that to say, put the best players that you think makes the best U.S. team out there on the floor and we are still going to have challenges. It's not going to be a cakewalk.

''The days of the 1992 Barcelona Dream Team are gone, over. It's going to be tough.''

https://www.si.com/nba/2019/09/13/kobe-bryant-usa-basketball-easy-days-done
« Last Edit: September 14, 2019, 01:03:16 AM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]
« Reply #724 on: September 14, 2019, 12:21:52 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The World Cup is the more difficult tournament, yet to Americans it is the less prestigious so we often see a lesser team in the more difficult tournament.  As a result this was bound to happen eventually, but it still shouldn't happen.  The US still had by far the most talent in the tournament.  Which again brings me back to them needing a real #1 star, like say Carmelo Anthony.
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Re: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]
« Reply #725 on: September 14, 2019, 12:39:46 PM »

Online Fierce1

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The 1998 Team USA that was composed of college players and unknown pro American players even finished with a bronze.

That was a lockout season, that's why no NBA players were playing for Team USA that year.

This year's Team USA only finished 7th.
That's the worst finish since NBA players started playing for Team USA in 1992.

Re: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]
« Reply #726 on: September 14, 2019, 03:12:25 PM »

Offline ozgod

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The 1998 Team USA that was composed of college players and unknown pro American players even finished with a bronze.

That was a lockout season, that's why no NBA players were playing for Team USA that year.

This year's Team USA only finished 7th.
That's the worst finish since NBA players started playing for Team USA in 1992.

It's ironic that the Czech Republic, who finished with a 4-4 record overall with losses to the USA (by 21 points), Greece, Australia and Serbia, finish in sixth spot, ahead of the USA in seventh, who finished with a 6-2 record with their 2 losses in the elimination round to France and Serbia. So our loss to France had a bigger negative impact on us than the Czechs' losses to us (by 20 points), Greece and Australia.

Not that it matters since it's gold medal or bust, but something weird's going on there.
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Re: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]
« Reply #727 on: September 14, 2019, 04:42:34 PM »

Offline libermaniac

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The 1998 Team USA that was composed of college players and unknown pro American players even finished with a bronze.

That was a lockout season, that's why no NBA players were playing for Team USA that year.

This year's Team USA only finished 7th.
That's the worst finish since NBA players started playing for Team USA in 1992.

It's ironic that the Czech Republic, who finished with a 4-4 record overall with losses to the USA (by 21 points), Greece, Australia and Serbia, finish in sixth spot, ahead of the USA in seventh, who finished with a 6-2 record with their 2 losses in the elimination round to France and Serbia. So our loss to France had a bigger negative impact on us than the Czechs' losses to us (by 20 points), Greece and Australia.

Not that it matters since it's gold medal or bust, but something weird's going on there.
It’s not weird. It’s just the way brackets work.

Re: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]
« Reply #728 on: September 14, 2019, 05:58:26 PM »

Offline ozgod

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The 1998 Team USA that was composed of college players and unknown pro American players even finished with a bronze.

That was a lockout season, that's why no NBA players were playing for Team USA that year.

This year's Team USA only finished 7th.
That's the worst finish since NBA players started playing for Team USA in 1992.

It's ironic that the Czech Republic, who finished with a 4-4 record overall with losses to the USA (by 21 points), Greece, Australia and Serbia, finish in sixth spot, ahead of the USA in seventh, who finished with a 6-2 record with their 2 losses in the elimination round to France and Serbia. So our loss to France had a bigger negative impact on us than the Czechs' losses to us (by 20 points), Greece and Australia.

Not that it matters since it's gold medal or bust, but something weird's going on there.
It’s not weird. It’s just the way brackets work.

I guess it’s because it started as tables of groups and then ended up as a bracket. Just funny that Czech ended up ranked above us when they had 2 more losses.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]
« Reply #729 on: September 15, 2019, 03:09:22 AM »

Offline ederson

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Cause in the NBA the best record gets the trophy?

Re: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]
« Reply #730 on: September 15, 2019, 11:16:57 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Cause in the NBA the best record gets the trophy?

Obviously the NBA champion is 'ranked' #1 in the NBA final rankings.  But every other team's final ranking is determined by their regular-season record, even the finals runner-up.

In tournaments like this, I think the appropriate way to rank teams would be by total wins, allowing for the top 4 to be determined by how far they advance, up to and including winning the gold.

Re: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]
« Reply #731 on: September 15, 2019, 11:38:55 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Cause in the NBA the best record gets the trophy?

Obviously the NBA champion is 'ranked' #1 in the NBA final rankings.  But every other team's final ranking is determined by their regular-season record, even the finals runner-up.

In tournaments like this, I think the appropriate way to rank teams would be by total wins, allowing for the top 4 to be determined by how far they advance, up to and including winning the gold.
Yeah, in a three medal winning tourney, you should basically rate the finish as gold, silver, bronze and then everyone else by record with head to head results being used as tiebreakers.

The idea that a 4-4 team, that didn't win a medal, finished above a team they lost to, that finished at 6-2, seems rather absurd to me.

Re: FIBA World Cup [USA vs. TUR: 9/3, 8:30 AM EST (ESPN+)]
« Reply #732 on: September 20, 2019, 08:00:22 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Despite finishing 7th at the World Cup, the US is still ranked No.1, although Spain is closing in. Australia are now No3, followed by Argentina and France who make out the top 5. Rankings as of Sep 16.



http://www.fiba.basketball/rankingmen
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