Author Topic: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers  (Read 2979 times)

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Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2019, 03:32:03 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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Lakers win the lottery this position might change, but I mean why would the Pelicans trade with the Lakers when there are going to be much better offers available, especially now that Ingram has a clot and Ball isn't going to play the rest of the year.

Why would you even waste space here speculating "if the Lakers win the lottery?"  The odds of that are absurdly low.

Thank you, Footey. Last week they were "almost in the playoffs"....today they've got Zion. Just wait a minute there, gentlemen.
It's just a formal possibility.  Not sure why people get testy over that.  Heck, lots of people think the lottery is rigged but they don't get grief for it.

A "formal possibility"?  What does that even mean?  Is there a "formal possibility" that we will get the number 9 pick (from Memphis) and then package that pick with our other first round picks to trade up to get the number one pick (Zion Williamson)?  Or that the first 8 teams will pass on Zion because of an injury scare, and we nab him at 9?  I mean, I find it borderline ridiculous that time is wasted on this board suggesting that the Lakers could possibly get the number one pick.  As of today, they have a 1.5% chance of getting it.
Yup, that's a formal possibility in my book.  If the Lakers get the #1, are going to say it is ridiculous to talk about the lottery being rigged?  Nope, we will have long threads about it.  IMO, it is fair game to talk about 1.5% chance.

Yup - the Cavs won the Wiggins lottery with like a 1.7% chance; Magic had 1.5% in the Webber Draft, Bulls 1.7% to get Rose. It's not some absurd scenario or something.

As long as you feel even more optimistic that we end up with the #2 or #3 pick via Sacto and are fine with people planning around that, I don't see an issue with bringing up the Lakers chances at #1. 
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Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2019, 03:59:58 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Lakers win the lottery this position might change, but I mean why would the Pelicans trade with the Lakers when there are going to be much better offers available, especially now that Ingram has a clot and Ball isn't going to play the rest of the year.

Why would you even waste space here speculating "if the Lakers win the lottery?"  The odds of that are absurdly low.

Thank you, Footey. Last week they were "almost in the playoffs"....today they've got Zion. Just wait a minute there, gentlemen.
It's just a formal possibility.  Not sure why people get testy over that.  Heck, lots of people think the lottery is rigged but they don't get grief for it.

A "formal possibility"?  What does that even mean?  Is there a "formal possibility" that we will get the number 9 pick (from Memphis) and then package that pick with our other first round picks to trade up to get the number one pick (Zion Williamson)?  Or that the first 8 teams will pass on Zion because of an injury scare, and we nab him at 9?  I mean, I find it borderline ridiculous that time is wasted on this board suggesting that the Lakers could possibly get the number one pick.  As of today, they have a 1.5% chance of getting it.
Yup, that's a formal possibility in my book.  If the Lakers get the #1, are going to say it is ridiculous to talk about the lottery being rigged?  Nope, we will have long threads about it.  IMO, it is fair game to talk about 1.5% chance.

Yup - the Cavs won the Wiggins lottery with like a 1.7% chance; Magic had 1.5% in the Webber Draft, Bulls 1.7% to get Rose. It's not some absurd scenario or something.

As long as you feel even more optimistic that we end up with the #2 or #3 pick via Sacto and are fine with people planning around that, I don't see an issue with bringing up the Lakers chances at #1.

I'm onboard with some optimism but nobody's "planning around" LA or Sacramento moving up. Just talking about it as a possibility that would probably change New Orleans' tune very quickly.

Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2019, 05:01:57 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Anything that lowers the price for Davis is good news.  Let's hope a rebuilding team wins the lottery and wants Zion.

I think a team wpuld be foolish to trade zion. He would be on a rookie contract and controllable for years.


Now the price for Davis, imo, is Tatum, the memphis pick, the Clippers pick, Boston pick 2020 and filler

Let Cs still draft this season. Would hate to miss out on some cheap depth with loads of potential.

Little at the sac pick
Fernando or reid at the boston pick

For “filler” we are going to need a good chunk of more salary.  A S&T of Rozier would certainly help and what I’m hoping for, and I hope they sign someone soon to a 2 MLE deal.

The problem with using an S&T for the 'filler' is that only half the salary in an S&T counts for matching in trade.

For Davis, we have to send out at least 22M in outgoing salary (his salary next year is just over $27M).

Tatum will make 7.8M.   If we exercise the draft picks, sign them and trade them in the package after 30 days, then their salaries can count as well.  The three picks mentioned right now would have a combined rookie scale total of about 7.5M.   That leaves a little over 6.7M in salary to be made up.

That means signing & trading Rozier on a deal paying him at least 13.4M in his first year.  Plus it has to be fully guaranteed in that first year.

Now, I'm sure that Rozier would like that salary.   But would NOP want to pay that?   That would mean paying him that much on top of also paying Jrue Holiday another $27M next year at the same position.   That's an awful lot of salary tied up in the PG spot.

Edit:  Actually, for the MEM pick to convey, it has to drop a bit from where it is at in order for it to convey and thus the amount of rookie salary the three picks would total to would be less than I indicated above.  That probably pushes the needed deal for Rozier up closer to $15M.   You could trim that back by including another player like Semi, Yabu or RW but now you are talking about a lot of bodies going to NOP and they needing a lot of empty roster spots to take them.

S&T transactions are harder and harder to make work given the rule changes of the last couple of CBAs.
Few things.

- Davis has a 15% trade kicker and since NO didn't trade him to his desired LAL destination, it's probably a good bet Davis doesn't do anyone any favors by waving it, so his salary will be $31.157 million meaning New Orleans would need to take salary back between $24.82 million and $39.04 million

- I am not sure if you don't understand the sign and trade 50% salary rule or didn't explain it but a sign and trade for Rozier creates a Base Year Compensation situation. These are the rules:

Quote
Base Year Compensation (BYC) is mostly an artifact of previous collective bargaining agreements. Its intent was to prevent teams from signing free agents to new contracts with salaries specifically intended to help facilitate trades. BYC was triggered when a team was over the cap and re-signed a player using the Larry Bird or Early Bird exception with a raise over 20%. Once triggered, BYC temporarily lowered the player's outgoing salary for salary-matching purposes (only), and therefore reduced or eliminated teams' ability to target salaries for trade purposes.

The 2011 CBA mostly eliminated BYC -- in fact, the term "Base Year Compensation" was removed from the agreement entirely. The rules formerly known as BYC now apply under just one circumstance -- during sign-and-trade transactions (see question number 92). If a team re-signs its Larry Bird or Early Bird free agent in order to trade the player in a sign-and-trade transaction, the player's new salary is greater than the minimum, he receives a raise greater than 20%, and the team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing1, then the player's outgoing salary for trade purposes is either his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. The team receiving the player always uses his new salary.

For example, a player made $5 million last season, is a Larry Bird free agent, and re-signs with his previous team for $10 million. The team is a taxpayer, and therefore is over the cap following the signing. The signing is part of a sign-and-trade transaction for another team's $10 million player. Since the BYC conditions were satisfied the player's outgoing salary for the trade portion of this sign-and-trade transaction is $5 million. This trade therefore would not be allowed, even though the players' new salaries match, since a taxpaying team cannot trade a $5 million player for a $10 million player. 

- So
Tatum - $7.8 mil
Let's say $5 mil in draft picks signed then traded 30 days later
Williams - $1.9 mil

That gets to 14.7 mil. We have to get to the minimum of $24.82 outgoing to make this trade. That means needing to make $14.13 mil in salary. If you try to do it with just a Rozier S&T, the deal for Rozier would need to be for $28.26 mil....which is over the maximum salary for a player of Rozier's experience.

So need more outgoing salary to lower the value of Rozier's S&T. Let's put Yabusele and his $3.11 mil. Adding him lowers the salary needed to $11.02 mil which would put the Rozier S&T needed at $22.04 mil

So we have reached the minimum salary needed to go out to make the trade work. But what about incoming? We sent out

Tatum, Williams, Yabusele and three picks which totaled $5 million or $17.81 million plus Rozier's $22.04 or total outgoing is $39.85 million. That means Boston needs to take in a minimum of $31.88 million.

But New Orleans is only sending us $31.157. So that trade is not going through.

I guess, as an exercise, if anyone wants to start adding more players to either side of the trade to make it work, then rework all the numbers, by all means go ahead. I think eventually you might get to make it work.


The point being, trying to include Rozier as a S&T, if he would even consent to it, makes the trade extremely difficult and maybe much larger than either team would want.

The easier thing is just include Smart.


Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2019, 06:38:05 PM »

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Anything that lowers the price for Davis is good news.  Let's hope a rebuilding team wins the lottery and wants Zion.

I think a team wpuld be foolish to trade zion. He would be on a rookie contract and controllable for years.


Now the price for Davis, imo, is Tatum, the memphis pick, the Clippers pick, Boston pick 2020 and filler

Let Cs still draft this season. Would hate to miss out on some cheap depth with loads of potential.

Little at the sac pick
Fernando or reid at the boston pick

For “filler” we are going to need a good chunk of more salary.  A S&T of Rozier would certainly help and what I’m hoping for, and I hope they sign someone soon to a 2 MLE deal.

The problem with using an S&T for the 'filler' is that only half the salary in an S&T counts for matching in trade.

For Davis, we have to send out at least 22M in outgoing salary (his salary next year is just over $27M).

Tatum will make 7.8M.   If we exercise the draft picks, sign them and trade them in the package after 30 days, then their salaries can count as well.  The three picks mentioned right now would have a combined rookie scale total of about 7.5M.   That leaves a little over 6.7M in salary to be made up.

That means signing & trading Rozier on a deal paying him at least 13.4M in his first year.  Plus it has to be fully guaranteed in that first year.

Now, I'm sure that Rozier would like that salary.   But would NOP want to pay that?   That would mean paying him that much on top of also paying Jrue Holiday another $27M next year at the same position.   That's an awful lot of salary tied up in the PG spot.

Edit:  Actually, for the MEM pick to convey, it has to drop a bit from where it is at in order for it to convey and thus the amount of rookie salary the three picks would total to would be less than I indicated above.  That probably pushes the needed deal for Rozier up closer to $15M.   You could trim that back by including another player like Semi, Yabu or RW but now you are talking about a lot of bodies going to NOP and they needing a lot of empty roster spots to take them.

S&T transactions are harder and harder to make work given the rule changes of the last couple of CBAs.
Few things.

- Davis has a 15% trade kicker and since NO didn't trade him to his desired LAL destination, it's probably a good bet Davis doesn't do anyone any favors by waving it, so his salary will be $31.157 million meaning New Orleans would need to take salary back between $24.82 million and $39.04 million

- I am not sure if you don't understand the sign and trade 50% salary rule or didn't explain it but a sign and trade for Rozier creates a Base Year Compensation situation. These are the rules:

Quote
Base Year Compensation (BYC) is mostly an artifact of previous collective bargaining agreements. Its intent was to prevent teams from signing free agents to new contracts with salaries specifically intended to help facilitate trades. BYC was triggered when a team was over the cap and re-signed a player using the Larry Bird or Early Bird exception with a raise over 20%. Once triggered, BYC temporarily lowered the player's outgoing salary for salary-matching purposes (only), and therefore reduced or eliminated teams' ability to target salaries for trade purposes.

The 2011 CBA mostly eliminated BYC -- in fact, the term "Base Year Compensation" was removed from the agreement entirely. The rules formerly known as BYC now apply under just one circumstance -- during sign-and-trade transactions (see question number 92). If a team re-signs its Larry Bird or Early Bird free agent in order to trade the player in a sign-and-trade transaction, the player's new salary is greater than the minimum, he receives a raise greater than 20%, and the team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing1, then the player's outgoing salary for trade purposes is either his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. The team receiving the player always uses his new salary.

For example, a player made $5 million last season, is a Larry Bird free agent, and re-signs with his previous team for $10 million. The team is a taxpayer, and therefore is over the cap following the signing. The signing is part of a sign-and-trade transaction for another team's $10 million player. Since the BYC conditions were satisfied the player's outgoing salary for the trade portion of this sign-and-trade transaction is $5 million. This trade therefore would not be allowed, even though the players' new salaries match, since a taxpaying team cannot trade a $5 million player for a $10 million player. 

- So
Tatum - $7.8 mil
Let's say $5 mil in draft picks signed then traded 30 days later
Williams - $1.9 mil

That gets to 14.7 mil. We have to get to the minimum of $24.82 outgoing to make this trade. That means needing to make $14.13 mil in salary. If you try to do it with just a Rozier S&T, the deal for Rozier would need to be for $28.26 mil....which is over the maximum salary for a player of Rozier's experience.

So need more outgoing salary to lower the value of Rozier's S&T. Let's put Yabusele and his $3.11 mil. Adding him lowers the salary needed to $11.02 mil which would put the Rozier S&T needed at $22.04 mil

So we have reached the minimum salary needed to go out to make the trade work. But what about incoming? We sent out

Tatum, Williams, Yabusele and three picks which totaled $5 million or $17.81 million plus Rozier's $22.04 or total outgoing is $39.85 million. That means Boston needs to take in a minimum of $31.88 million.

But New Orleans is only sending us $31.157. So that trade is not going through.

I guess, as an exercise, if anyone wants to start adding more players to either side of the trade to make it work, then rework all the numbers, by all means go ahead. I think eventually you might get to make it work.


The point being, trying to include Rozier as a S&T, if he would even consent to it, makes the trade extremely difficult and maybe much larger than either team would want.

The easier thing is just include Smart.

I believe most people get that includ8ng Smart is the easiest thing.

But the exercise has been to keep smart and his game changing defense.

Rozier needs to be gone either way, if we can use him in a deal as opposed to smart then great.



I wonder if it is possible to make ourselves under the cap with contract restructuring to bypass this rule?

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Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2019, 06:42:24 PM »

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Or just trade Hayward and Tatum and a some of picks for davis and moore

Irving
Smart
Brown
Horford
Davis

Done and championship please
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Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2019, 06:49:01 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Or just trade Hayward and Tatum and a some of picks for davis and moore

Irving
Smart
Brown
Horford
Davis

Done and championship please

That's a good team, but we're better with Hayward.  Maybe he never fully recovers, but if he does a lot of folks will hopefully chuckle at themselves in retrospect.  Before he got hurt, he was mentioned in the same breath as Jimmy Butler and Paul George, and (from potentially faulty recollection) was ranked higher by SI and ESPN than Kyrie Irving.


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Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2019, 06:54:12 PM »

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Another thought.

3 months from signing a player to trading them

Sign someone MLE then in July trade them and yabusele and a second rounder to Cleveland for JR smiths non guaranteed contract(14 mill) then use JR smith, rozier Sign and trade 17 mill, tatum and williams and 2 2019 picks and a 2020 pick for davis.

Nop adds 3 young players, 3 picks and shed 10 mill in salary from Smiths contract
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Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2019, 06:54:29 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I wonder if it is possible to make ourselves under the cap with contract restructuring to bypass this rule?
No it is not. I think the cap is at around $109 million next year. The Celtics would have to get to about just $77 million to absorb Davis' contract.

There is no way of getting that low while keeping your drafts picks(remember those slots count against the cap and if you are including them in the trade, you have to keep them) and keeping Kyrie and Horford. Why do that to get Davis but not have Kyrie and Horford to play him with?

Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2019, 06:57:08 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Another thought.

3 months from signing a player to trading them

Sign someone MLE then in July trade them and yabusele and a second rounder to Cleveland for JR smiths non guaranteed contract(14 mill) then use JR smith, rozier Sign and trade 17 mill, tatum and williams and 2 2019 picks and a 2020 pick for davis.

Nop adds 3 young players, 3 picks and shed 10 mill in salary from Smiths contract

Non-guaranteed salary no longer counts as salary for trade matching purposes.


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Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2019, 07:03:19 PM »

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Another thought.

3 months from signing a player to trading them

Sign someone MLE then in July trade them and yabusele and a second rounder to Cleveland for JR smiths non guaranteed contract(14 mill) then use JR smith, rozier Sign and trade 17 mill, tatum and williams and 2 2019 picks and a 2020 pick for davis.

Nop adds 3 young players, 3 picks and shed 10 mill in salary from Smiths contract

Non-guaranteed salary no longer counts as salary for trade matching purposes.

So it is really boiling down to it being a terrible decision to not use MLE yet, and more so that Rozier and Morris wasnt traded.

It is costing Smart by not doing that....one of the best 3andd players in the game, an absolute gamechanger defensively, arguably the heart of the team and looking like a bargain of a contract.
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Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2019, 07:04:04 PM »

Online Silky

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I wonder if it is possible to make ourselves under the cap with contract restructuring to bypass this rule?
No it is not. I think the cap is at around $109 million next year. The Celtics would have to get to about just $77 million to absorb Davis' contract.

There is no way of getting that low while keeping your drafts picks(remember those slots count against the cap and if you are including them in the trade, you have to keep them) and keeping Kyrie and Horford. Why do that to get Davis but not have Kyrie and Horford to play him with?

I was thinking about getting below to have the Rozier s&t not be byc....so not 77 mill, but still too much
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Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2019, 07:07:50 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Another thought.

3 months from signing a player to trading them

Sign someone MLE then in July trade them and yabusele and a second rounder to Cleveland for JR smiths non guaranteed contract(14 mill) then use JR smith, rozier Sign and trade 17 mill, tatum and williams and 2 2019 picks and a 2020 pick for davis.

Nop adds 3 young players, 3 picks and shed 10 mill in salary from Smiths contract

Non-guaranteed salary no longer counts as salary for trade matching purposes.
And again, in this scenario, signing and trading Rozier makes things problematic.

Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2019, 08:51:27 PM »

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Another thought.

3 months from signing a player to trading them

Sign someone MLE then in July trade them and yabusele and a second rounder to Cleveland for JR smiths non guaranteed contract(14 mill) then use JR smith, rozier Sign and trade 17 mill, tatum and williams and 2 2019 picks and a 2020 pick for davis.

Nop adds 3 young players, 3 picks and shed 10 mill in salary from Smiths contract

Non-guaranteed salary no longer counts as salary for trade matching purposes.

So it is really boiling down to it being a terrible decision to not use MLE yet, and more so that Rozier and Morris wasnt traded.

It is costing Smart by not doing that....one of the best 3andd players in the game, an absolute gamechanger defensively, arguably the heart of the team and looking like a bargain of a contract.

I have to imagine that we will use the MLE or you're totally right that not trading Rozier/Morris for someone making money next year will have been a huge mistake...especially the way Morris looks now.

I have already prepared myself for a Tatum/Smart package, but am hoping to hold on to the MEM pick with LAL out of the sweepstakes.

Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2019, 09:30:25 PM »

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I think a lot depends on who gets the #1 pick (Zion) and what direction that team goes in. For example, if Phoenix lands it, do they deal that + a few more things for AD and team him up with Booker and company? Knicks can obviously pull off a trade then. Unfortunately so could the Lakers if the lottery goes there way (ugh). Maybe Sixers package Simmons + picks if they have an early playoff exit and want to re-tool their roster a bit? Wizards with Beal + picks? Blazers with McCollum (or Lilliard) + picks?

Certainly a lot of possibilities. Something tells me he lands with either Washington, Portland or New York. Portland IF they have another frustrating, early playoff exit.
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Re: Reports: Pelicans will never trade Davis to the Lakers
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2019, 10:19:56 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think a lot depends on who gets the #1 pick (Zion) and what direction that team goes in. For example, if Phoenix lands it, do they deal that + a few more things for AD and team him up with Booker and company? Knicks can obviously pull off a trade then. Unfortunately so could the Lakers if the lottery goes there way (ugh). Maybe Sixers package Simmons + picks if they have an early playoff exit and want to re-tool their roster a bit? Wizards with Beal + picks? Blazers with McCollum (or Lilliard) + picks?

Certainly a lot of possibilities. Something tells me he lands with either Washington, Portland or New York. Portland IF they have another frustrating, early playoff exit.
I think his landing spots are in Boston and New York. There is just no way Portland or Washington close that deal. New Orleans wants cost controlled young talent and some cap relief. It comes down to Tatum or Zion going for Davis depending of course where Zion ends up.

I know the chance is remote but if the Sac pick pulls a miracle and ends up a top 4 pick, no one is beating Tatum, that Sac pick and filler for Davis. Heck, we probably would be able to keep all our other picks that way. Even the Memphis one.

Yeah, I know, it would take a miracle but there is this guy, KG, and he told me ANYTHING is possible.

 

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