The real problem with the Celtics

[Big333223]

Kyrie's attitude, demeanor is cancerous. Plain and simple that's the real problem no one wants to say it though because fans want to keep him.

His approach and body language to the game and team is glaring. This is a dispirited bunch and they haven't won a game since beating Philly and Detroit. I wonder why

Hi. You must be new here.

[LilRip]

The problem is chemistry. Outside of Kyrie, no one seems really comfy in their roles (if they even have roles). I mean, look at the other contenders and ask yourself who are their top guys, secondary stars, and role players?

TOP GUYS
GSW: Steph, KD
Toronto: Kawhi
Milwaukee: Giannis
Rockets: Harden
Boston: Kyrie

SECONDARY STARS
GSW: Klay, Draymond
Toronto: Lowry, maybe Siakam
Milwaukee: Middleton
Rockets: CP3
Boston: Horford, Tatum...Brown, Hayward, Morris, Rozier

We have wayyy too many guys. So what happens is an awkward dance of guys trying to fill a bigger role than what’s available and deferring when it isn’t called for.

Thankfully, Rozier and Morris are gone this offseason. If we package our secondary stars for AD, I see it as a step in the right direction too. If not, someone needs to step up in a big way to equal Kyrie’s magnitude (ala KD:Steph). Then whoever are left on the secondary tier need to sacrifice the way Draymond and Klay have (honestly, Klay could be doing so much more).

[LilRip]

You could see the concerted effort last night to move the ball a lot.

Toronto was on fire last night, shooting nearly 50% from 3.

We were ice cold.

Yes we could have played better defense. But really feel that last night debacle was not so much guys giving up, but rather guys unable to stop a hot team.

Our biggest defensive problems were not doubling up on Kawhi in the post, and not covering Siakim on corner 3s.

We can beat Raptors in 7 game series.

Let’s all take a deep breath and focus on beating Blazers tonight.

Really? They’re the best team in the East imo. I don’t think we can beat them this year. Especially without HCA

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I'm so tired of the Kyrie bashing. And it's not even because I'm a huge fan of him, because I'm not. And I'm not saying that Kyrie is blameless, because he isn't.

But it takes two to tango, and the other half of what's going on here involves the youngsters on the team, namely Brown, Tatum, and Rozier.

Those guys did really well in last year's playoffs, but that led to a lot of hype over the summer, and the primary result was that these guys entered this season with heads the size of prize-winning pumpkins. It seems obvious to me that they thought the team now belonged to them, that Kyrie and Hayward would just take a back seat to them, but that was never gonna happen.

[Tr1boy]

The problem is not necessarily one player

but the dynamics is way off

And last season the team making the ECF could be a curse in disguise

TIMELINE of issues

1. Celtics team of mainly Youth make it to game 7 of ECF
2.  Irving does not attend game 7.  Imo this is where some of the bad blood starts
3.  High expectations to reach finals
4.  Irving blows up on CBS, Hayward on what he thinks is a missed final play (vs Magic)
5.  Irving calls out youth
6.  Youth fight back and state the team is going to make finals etc.
7.  Irving calls out youth at All star weekend interview
8.  CBS loses grip of team. Keeps sulking and blaming himself. yet does nothing
9.  Overall, win or lose these days...nobody seems happy


The real issue

1. CBS is a better coach when he is the lead "PG" "playmaker".  So there is incompatibility with Irving type personality (also Rondo type personality)

2.  Irving requesting 15 year old vet as well for Robert Williams to play more.  Feels like he wants more of a traditional system on the court and not CBS space and pace

3.  Team preferential treatment of Irving may not be sitting well with young players like Rozier, Brown ... who sacrifice their start position and go back to the bench

4. Danny Ainge "greed" to horde assets ... this time hits fire.  This is the kind of situation where you need to build around "harmony".  Either choose Irving or CBS and youth.   Ainge likes everyone in the room and wants everyone to get along.   Ideal but not reality


Next season even if the main youth are gone for AD.  I think having CBS will still be an issue

Ainge has to "choose" one direction or the other

[TheReaLPuba]

I'm so tired of the Kyrie bashing. And it's not even because I'm a huge fan of him, because I'm not. And I'm not saying that Kyrie is blameless, because he isn't.

But it takes two to tango, and the other half of what's going on here involves the youngsters on the team, namely Brown, Tatum, and Rozier.

Those guys did really well in last year's playoffs, but that led to a lot of hype over the summer, and the primary result was that these guys entered this season with heads the size of prize-winning pumpkins. It seems obvious to me that they thought the team now belonged to them, that Kyrie and Hayward would just take a back seat to them, but that was never gonna happen.

It’s not bashing.

Irving’s play doesn’t translate to wins.

What were the Cavs with Irving as the lead guy?

Now he’s on a loaded Celtics team and we are vastly underachieving.

Baynes plays more than 15 minutes we are like 15-2.

Baynes has more impact than we give him credit for.

[ozgod]

I'm so tired of the Kyrie bashing. And it's not even because I'm a huge fan of him, because I'm not. And I'm not saying that Kyrie is blameless, because he isn't.

But it takes two to tango, and the other half of what's going on here involves the youngsters on the team, namely Brown, Tatum, and Rozier.

Those guys did really well in last year's playoffs, but that led to a lot of hype over the summer, and the primary result was that these guys entered this season with heads the size of prize-winning pumpkins. It seems obvious to me that they thought the team now belonged to them, that Kyrie and Hayward would just take a back seat to them, but that was never gonna happen.

It’s not bashing.

Irving’s play doesn’t translate to wins.

What were the Cavs with Irving as the lead guy?

Now he’s on a loaded Celtics team and we are vastly underachieving.

Baynes plays more than 15 minutes we are like 15-2.

Baynes has more impact than we give him credit for.

Here's the thing though. Kyrie played 60 games last season, where we had a record of 41-19 which works out to 68% win rate. He wasn't shut down until game 67 last season. It's not like his contribution to last season was zero.

[RJ87]

I'm so tired of the Kyrie bashing. And it's not even because I'm a huge fan of him, because I'm not. And I'm not saying that Kyrie is blameless, because he isn't.

But it takes two to tango, and the other half of what's going on here involves the youngsters on the team, namely Brown, Tatum, and Rozier.

Those guys did really well in last year's playoffs, but that led to a lot of hype over the summer, and the primary result was that these guys entered this season with heads the size of prize-winning pumpkins. It seems obvious to me that they thought the team now belonged to them, that Kyrie and Hayward would just take a back seat to them, but that was never gonna happen.

It’s not bashing.

Irving’s play doesn’t translate to wins.

What were the Cavs with Irving as the lead guy?

Now he’s on a loaded Celtics team and we are vastly underachieving.

Baynes plays more than 15 minutes we are like 15-2.

Baynes has more impact than we give him credit for.

Here's the thing though. Kyrie played 60 games last season, where we had a record of 41-19 which works out to 68% win rate. He wasn't shut down until game 67 last season. It's not like his contribution to last season was zero.

Doesn't matter. Doesn't fit the narrative.

[KGBirdBias]

What narrative? Watch the games. LOL

Watch how he sprints on offense, jogs on defense.

[Silky]

I'm so tired of the Kyrie bashing. And it's not even because I'm a huge fan of him, because I'm not. And I'm not saying that Kyrie is blameless, because he isn't.

But it takes two to tango, and the other half of what's going on here involves the youngsters on the team, namely Brown, Tatum, and Rozier.

Those guys did really well in last year's playoffs, but that led to a lot of hype over the summer, and the primary result was that these guys entered this season with heads the size of prize-winning pumpkins. It seems obvious to me that they thought the team now belonged to them, that Kyrie and Hayward would just take a back seat to them, but that was never gonna happen.

It’s not bashing.

Irving’s play doesn’t translate to wins.

What were the Cavs with Irving as the lead guy?

Now he’s on a loaded Celtics team and we are vastly underachieving.

Baynes plays more than 15 minutes we are like 15-2.

Baynes has more impact than we give him credit for.

Here's the thing though. Kyrie played 60 games last season, where we had a record of 41-19 which works out to 68% win rate. He wasn't shut down until game 67 last season. It's not like his contribution to last season was zero.

TP for the truth bomb

[Silky]

Kyrie's attitude, demeanor is cancerous. Plain and simple that's the real problem no one wants to say it though because fans want to keep him.

His approach and body language to the game and team is glaring. This is a dispirited bunch and they haven't won a game since beating Philly and Detroit. I wonder why

Why wasn’t his personality cancerous last year when they were winning 16 in a row? If his personality kept the team from winning, it would have happened last year as well.

When Kyrie first came to the Celtics he showed humility, he shared the ball. Look at his numbers last year in the first 30 games during that winning streak. It took a year for Kyrie to morph into the "Uncle Drew" Kyrie and cause hard feelings on this team. Kyrie is embarrassed with the play of his team, and they must feel it.

You do know that Kyrie has:
A better assist %, Better rebounding %, Better steal% and lower usage than last year right? Including the big winning streak?

[wiley]

I won't start a new thread, since I'm in the keep the assets, don't trade for Davis, let Kyrie go camp.  And people are tired of new threads on that.

CBS and Kyrie bad mix (my opinion).  Keep CBS please out of the two.  Kyrie and Hayward so so mix (underutilizes Gordon imo).

People think Hayward should run the second unit.   Well, next year I think he should run the first unit next to a possibly not pure PG, such as Rozier, Smart or God willing: Ja Morant (once he's ready) via miracle Sac pick landing at 2 or via trading for him (not happening unless NYK land at 2 and will take Kyrie for him plus salary in sign in trade.

For example: 
Smart, Morant, Wannamaker  (eventual start Morant)
Brown, Smart, (maybe land Culver/K.Johnson/Nick Alex Walker with Sac pick...if Morant via Kyrie)
Tatum, Hayward, Ojeleye
Hayward, Horford, Grant Williams (pick)
Baynes, Horford, Williams, Grant Williams

EVENTUAL:

Morant, Smart
Brown, Smart, Nick Alex Walker or Culver or K. Johnson or Langford or Kevin Porter, etc...
Tatum, Hayward
Hayward, Horford, Grant Williams
Baynes, Horford, Wiliams, Williams


Yes, I'm advocating sign and trading Kyrie to NYK for Morant, continuing to build, giving Hayward more Point duties at the PF spot next to a hulking center with Al off the bench (still finishing games and possible starting in playoffs). 

retaining Memphis pick.

enjoy Celtics life again with a young super coach and young improving team 

rather than build around two guys who don't really want to be here and have frequent injury issues.

 

[CroCorvus]

well, Kyrie seems different after all star break. he seems more serious, more stressed, def not enjoying the game.
he is the best player but he doesn't seems like clear cut leader of this team
because of that, I don't buy it this is all his fault... unless, the team already knows he is leaving. if that is the case, I doubt it is, we should forget this years palyoffs...

They've lost 3 games in a row that probably has something to do with his demeanor.

Haha real smart. Do you watch any games? Im talking about his mood facial expression and body language overall, he seems down, unhappy, unwilling or whatever you call it. Doesng seems to enjoy it, and that was even before we lost first game after asg, during game.

[lrybrd]

Kyrie's attitude, demeanor is cancerous. Plain and simple that's the real problem no one wants to say it though because fans want to keep him.

His approach and body language to the game and team is glaring. This is a dispirited bunch and they haven't won a game since beating Philly and Detroit. I wonder why

I completely agree with you.  His body language last night as well as other nights looks like a guy who has checked out. 

That being said, the problems with this team are much deeper than Irving.  Rozier has been hot trash and should be sat down.  I'd take Shane Larkin back in a minute.

Additionally, Stevens has to be called to task.  Whether its his refusal to call timeouts before extended runs are made against us, to his defenisve schemes that consistently leave people wide open all night (i.e., Siakam for his corner threes last night) or his refusal to show some control over this team and sit some of these guys down when they are not engaged, it is just mind-boggling.   

I'm just waiting for someone (player, coach or Ainge) to light this team up.  Someone has to call this group out and they are all guilty of letting things slip with potentially the exception of Baynes and Theis.  Whether its Marcus jacking up ill-advised 3s or making stupid passes, Hayward letting Siakam come down on a fastbreak for a dunk uncontested, Horford loafing it back up the court on defense, Kyrie's lack of communication/hustle on defense or Rozier's absolute assine play (by the way does he ever finish at the rim), it is making the game hard to watch. 

I hope that Ainge finds someone on the buyout market that can come in and energize this group.  Give me Larkin at this point and sit Rozier down for the rest of the season.   I don't care but something needs to be done to shake this group up. 

[RJ87]

I won't start a new thread, since I'm in the keep the assets, don't trade for Davis, let Kyrie go camp.  And people are tired of new threads on that.

CBS and Kyrie bad mix (my opinion).  Keep CBS please out of the two.  Kyrie and Hayward so so mix (underutilizes Gordon imo).

People think Hayward should run the second unit.   Well, next year I think he should run the first unit next to a possibly not pure PG, such as Rozier, Smart or God willing: Ja Morant (once he's ready) via miracle Sac pick landing at 2 or via trading for him (not happening unless NYK land at 2 and will take Kyrie for him plus salary in sign in trade.

For example: 
Smart, Morant, Wannamaker  (eventual start Morant)
Brown, Smart, (maybe land Culver/K.Johnson/Nick Alex Walker with Sac pick...if Morant via Kyrie)
Tatum, Hayward, Ojeleye
Hayward, Horford, Grant Williams (pick)
Baynes, Horford, Williams, Grant Williams

EVENTUAL:

Morant, Smart
Brown, Smart, Nick Alex Walker or Culver or K. Johnson or Langford or Kevin Porter, etc...
Tatum, Hayward
Hayward, Horford, Grant Williams
Baynes, Horford, Wiliams, Williams


Yes, I'm advocating sign and trading Kyrie to NYK for Morant, continuing to build, giving Hayward more Point duties at the PF spot next to a hulking center with Al off the bench (still finishing games and possible starting in playoffs). 

retaining Memphis pick.

enjoy Celtics life again with a young super coach and young improving team 

rather than build around two guys who don't really want to be here and have frequent injury issues.

One more time... Why would New York sign and trade for a guy they can sign outright without giving up assets? This isn't 2k. There's no motivation for them to do that.