Are We There Yet With Brad Stevens?

[BlackCeltic]

We need Baynes.

If Aron baynes makes that large a difference, doesn't that say more about the rest of the team?

We need interior strength.

Because they're too busy chasing wings...we already have interior strength.

I don't know who thought position-less ball was some wave of the future, but they're seriously mistaken.

And I just think Kerr just sat back and let his players play to their strengths of THAT TEAM. Something he learned from Phil, Mike and Scottie.

Coach kerr doesn't have Marcus Morris as his starting power forward. If we had Draymond we would be smashing everyone.

[jpotter33]

Yes. The fact that he can’t get these guys to play with consistent effort from game to game highlights that he just isn’t getting through to these guys.

I do think this will be less of a concern in the playoffs, but none of that is going to matter if we play ourselves into a no-win situation with our playoff path as the fifth seed.

[Triplenickle]

We need Baynes.

If Aron baynes makes that large a difference, doesn't that say more about the rest of the team?

We need interior strength.

Because they're too busy chasing wings...we already have interior strength.

I don't know who thought position-less ball was some wave of the future, but they're seriously mistaken.

And I just think Kerr just sat back and let his players play to their strengths of THAT TEAM. Something he learned from Phil, Mike and Scottie.

Coach kerr doesn't have Marcus Morris as his starting power forward. If we had Draymond we would be smashing everyone.

We would be better, sure...but we would still have the inherent problems this system gives you.

And Al should have a center by his side at all times. They seriously over work that dude and that's why he disappears. He has to do all the man work and still run around chasing guards and shooting 3's

Man....if I was Davis I wouldn't come here either

But you're not even gonna slow down elite guards with bigs...I don't even know why they do that. It just creates mismatches against yourself and takes them out of position to do anything positive down low.

Another thing about Al is when he posts up, something positive happens 80% of the time.

They go to him about what...2 or 3 times a game?

It doesn't matter who we have...this is about as far as this system is gonna go.

[GreenWarrior]

I just wish it didn't take so long for so many of you to come around. if you go back to his 1st season here you might have realized there might be issues going forward.

that's not to say I wasn't on board with the hiring of stevens and he was good enough for where we were when he was hired.

but, the shots he encourages players to take - like AB pulling up to take a long 2 with 20 seconds left on the shot clock...

the handling of jeff green and rondo was an indication stevens might not be cut out to coach these types of players.

and personally I have no problem with these "system" coaches... after they've won something, but I can't stand these coaches that use the "I don't have my kind of players" excuse. a good coach gets the best out of what he has.

and for the most part stevens actually has done that but you want a reason for why guys like Robert Williams don't get playing time over Ojeleye? there ya go. on night's when we need some "D" stevens is worried about having guys out there that can shoot the 3.     

[Triplenickle]

I just wish it didn't take so long for so many of you to come around. if you go back to his 1st season here you might have realized there might be issues going forward.

that's not to say I wasn't on board with the hiring of stevens and he was good enough for where we were when he was hired.

but, the shots he encourages players to take - like AB pulling up to take a long 2 with 20 seconds left on the shot clock...

the handling of jeff green and rondo was an indication stevens might not be cut out to coach these types of players.

and personally I have no problem with these "system" coaches... after they've won something, but I can't stand these coaches that use the "I don't have my kind of players" excuse. a good coach gets the best out of what he has.

and for the most part stevens actually has done that but you want a reason for why guys like Robert Williams don't get playing time over Ojeleye? there ya go. on night's when we need some "D" stevens is worried about having guys out there that can shoot the 3.   

I definitely agree. And like Pitino, it was all about the system. Guys wouldn't play until they knew the system.

But I'm sorry...Williams should be planted under the basket like Mutombo for at least 25 minutes a game. The hell with the "system". 

He wouldn't need to know all those intricate movements if he was just allowed to roam in the paint and only switch about 6 feet in.

Matter fact it should be that way for all the bigs. All of them protect the rim and all are decent rebounders.

Let the perimeter guys defend the perimeter and whoever gets through has to deal with a big.

As it stands, there's no big to run into because the guard just blew past him...with no one to rebound the ball either.

We ain't building rockets here.

[KGBirdBias]

Its is perplexing for guys like Semi and Williams not to play against the Bulls when we play the Bucks and Raptors in the same week. I just don't understand what Stevens is doing. Some of this stuff is coaching 101. Now is the time to play these guys against inferior opponents.

I still say he needs some experienced NBA coaches or former players on his staff.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

I just wish it didn't take so long for so many of you to come around. if you go back to his 1st season here you might have realized there might be issues going forward.

that's not to say I wasn't on board with the hiring of stevens and he was good enough for where we were when he was hired.

but, the shots he encourages players to take - like AB pulling up to take a long 2 with 20 seconds left on the shot clock...

the handling of jeff green and rondo was an indication stevens might not be cut out to coach these types of players.

and personally I have no problem with these "system" coaches... after they've won something, but I can't stand these coaches that use the "I don't have my kind of players" excuse. a good coach gets the best out of what he has.

and for the most part stevens actually has done that but you want a reason for why guys like Robert Williams don't get playing time over Ojeleye? there ya go. on night's when we need some "D" stevens is worried about having guys out there that can shoot the 3.   

I definitely agree. And like Pitino, it was all about the system. Guys wouldn't play until they knew the system.

But I'm sorry...Williams should be planted under the basket like Mutombo for at least 25 minutes a game. The hell with the "system". 

He wouldn't need to know all those intricate movements if he was just allowed to roam in the paint and only switch about 6 feet in.

Matter fact it should be that way for all the bigs. All of them protect the rim and all are decent rebounders.

Let the perimeter guys defend the perimeter and whoever gets through has to deal with a big.

As it stands, there's no big to run into because the guard just blew past him...with no one to rebound the ball either.

We ain't building rockets here.

agreed. let TIMELORD defend the rim and grab rebounds. patrol the paint. pick up whomever is in the area. all this switching is leaving rim wide open. 

[Neurotic Guy]

Go back to Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, Horford and Baynes.

We need more rebounding and Brown has been a good soldier and played well. He deserves to be put back in.

Now how can we get Stevens to call more timeouts or call someone out during these runs. How can we get Stevens to figure out a way to play harder against inferior teams. He obviously doesn't have the pulse of the team.

I really agree with this.  Bench would feature Smart, Morris and Hayward -- Smart definitely finishes games -- maybe Morris returns to early in the year form off the bench; Smart and Hayward share point role on 2nd unit.  Rozier's role reduced to spot/clean-up with Smart, Jaylen and Kyrie using all of the 96 guard minutes.   9-man rotation with Theis getting 10-15 -- Semi, Yabu, Terry, and Rob contributing as needed.

Baynes changes the team dynamics considerably.  Looking forward to his return.

[gouki88]

Go back to Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, Horford and Baynes.

We need more rebounding and Brown has been a good soldier and played well. He deserves to be put back in.

Now how can we get Stevens to call more timeouts or call someone out during these runs. How can we get Stevens to figure out a way to play harder against inferior teams. He obviously doesn't have the pulse of the team.

I really agree with this.  Bench would feature Smart, Morris and Hayward -- Smart definitely finishes games -- maybe Morris returns to early in the year form off the bench; Smart and Hayward share point role on 2nd unit.  Rozier's role reduced to spot/clean-up with Smart, Jaylen and Kyrie using all of the 96 guard minutes.   9-man rotation with Theis getting 10-15 -- Semi, Yabu, Terry, and Rob contributing as needed.

Baynes changes the team dynamics considerably.  Looking forward to his return.

That’s my dream. If Brad actually did this I would be happy with him. Don’t think it’ll happen though - for whatever reason Rozier gets minutes

[Big333223]

What are we talking about, exactly? Brad needs to take some criticism for the underwhelming play or Bard's seat is actually getting hot? Brad obviously needs to take some responsibility for the team's energy night in and night out and these bad 3rd quarters we see.

But I don't think he's on the hot seat in the slightest.

[PhoSita]

What are we talking about, exactly? Brad needs to take some criticism for the underwhelming play or Bard's seat is actually getting hot? Brad obviously needs to take some responsibility for the team's energy night in and night out and these bad 3rd quarters we see.

But I don't think he's on the hot seat in the slightest.

I don't think he's on the hot seat, but my feeling is that Brad had earned the benefit of the doubt for a good long while based on the team's results the past few seasons.

But I think we've gone past the point where Brad can escape being a part of the discussion about what is wrong with this year's team.

[smokeablount]

I support shaking up the rotation and roles.

I want to live and die by Gordon Hayward at this point.  I want us to ride a big 3 of kyrie, Tatum and Hayward with everyone else secondary.

Jaylen and Horford are also emerging to be among our best players.

Agreed.

Yeah, I would go back to the original starting 5 to start the season and let Morris, Smart, and Rozier do their thing off the bench. I would even be in favor of starting Baynes if that's what is needed. We sure did well with him starting last season.

Either starting or off the bench, Brown should be over 30mpg at this point. He is young and in incredibly good shape. I said this before, but it's almost as if we are trying to hide him from NOP in a trade for Davis. There is no other reason this guy should be consistently playing in the low 20s in minutes per night.

I agree.  I've been wondering about this myself, but these are the types of 'behind the scenes' theories I love to entertain anyway.

Edit - Post 2008!  Too bad it wasn't a championship-caliber commentary to live up to the hype

[smokeablount]

What are we talking about, exactly? Brad needs to take some criticism for the underwhelming play or Bard's seat is actually getting hot? Brad obviously needs to take some responsibility for the team's energy night in and night out and these bad 3rd quarters we see.

But I don't think he's on the hot seat in the slightest.

I don't think he's on the hot seat, but my feeling is that Brad had earned the benefit of the doubt for a good long while based on the team's results the past few seasons.

But I think we've gone past the point where Brad can escape being a part of the discussion about what is wrong with this year's team.

Not on the hot seat at all, but in the discussion of what's wrong with the team this year, and deserves some doubt in regards to his system/ ability to adapt to his players, as I've started to point out very recently.  The timeouts, weird lineups and such are annoying but to me the big Q is whether he can adapt his system to make the most of the players he has and take advantage of Silver's rule changes.

He should improve, and I don't see who we'd hire who would step in and be better.  But he's a legit part of the disappointment this year. 

I also would like to see at least one of the Marcuses, Morris, return to the bench and Baynes seems like a good choice to replace him.  Who ends up starting between Brown or Smart is debatable IMO, and I think it's way too early to think about Hayward starting again. 

[Spicoli]

Stevens is an average NBA coach. I have him on the same level as a Terry Stots or Dave Joerger. If Tatum is your future franchise player you need to get him involved in the offense and keep it that way. How many times this year has Tatum gotten off to a great start only to be subbed out and not put back in until 10 game minutes later? It's outrageous. No player can get into a rhythm that way. That is fine for role players but not for stars. And why is he not playing our best rim protector at all? Robert Williams averages like 5 blocks whenever he gets playing time. It's absurd that he gets glued to the bench just because he misses a few rotations. I've got news for you Brad. Everyone on this team misses rotations. That's why Booker, Murray, and Lavine have gone nuclear against this team.

[ozgod]

Jay King had an interesting article in The Athletic today about how much blame Brad deserves for the struggles. I have a subscription to it and it's behind a paywall but I wanted to share (presumably I'm allowed to):

Brad Stevens is ‘disappointed’ in himself. Should Celtics fans feel the same way?
By Jay King Feb 25, 2019  17 

CHICAGO​ – Sticking to​ an undesirable pattern, the Celtics​ lost in​ style Saturday​ night, leaving​ a trail​ of​ interesting​ comments​ in​ the​ ashes​​ behind them. Kyrie Irving shrugged off the disappointment, vowing that his team would be fine by the playoffs. Marcus Smart took another route, dejectedly wondering where his team’s desire has gone. Brad Stevens’ comments may have been the most pointed.

“I’m disappointed in myself,” said the coach, repeating a stance he first shared before the All-Star break. “And I’ve gotta do a lot better.”

Stevens rightfully received a large share of credit for Boston’s quick rise from the lottery in his first year to the Eastern Conference Finals in each of the past two seasons. Under him, a number of players – including Isaiah Thomas, Avery Bradley and Jae Crowder – have played the best basketball of their careers, sparking some exciting, deep playoff runs. Despite injuries to Gordon Hayward and Irving last season, the Celtics advanced within one win of the NBA Finals, positioning the franchise as one of this year’s favorites. But this season hasn’t been smooth for the Celtics. They started 10-10, currently rank fifth in the East, and have left a wake of frustration behind them.

It’s fair to ask how much blame Stevens deserves for his team, projected by Las Vegas with an over-under of 59 wins and playing at a 51-win pace. It’s fair to wonder whether he should have done more to right his offense early, cool off his locker room later on, and persuade his team to stay more together as the season progressed. The Celtics could still right themselves in time for the playoffs, as Irving believes they will, but they have been one of the NBA’s disappointments so far. Here’s an attempt to determine how much should be pinned on Stevens by examining some of the season’s most critical factors to date.

The doomed starting lineup
One major reason for the Celtics’ 10-10 start: their initial starting lineup, which opened 15 of those games, racked up a minus-4.5 net rating with a laughably miserable offense. Over almost one-quarter of the season, Stevens kept running out those same five players whenever they were all available: Irving, Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, Hayward and Al Horford.

Hayward wasn’t right, the chemistry in that first unit never materialized, and the starters who everyone thought would rip through the NBA essentially held the team back. In retrospect, it’s easy to wonder why Stevens declined to break up the starters earlier than he did, but the situation was complicated. He had many reasons to expect it would break through. Brown and Tatum had just come off a playoff run in which they performed like breakout stars. Hayward, albeit still rounding into form, could have theoretically provided help in all the right areas. Alongside Irving and Horford, both All-Stars last season, the Celtics’ initial starting lineup had monster two-way potential. If it had worked, it would have been one of the NBA’s most dynamic groups. Heck, it still could be one day.

It did not work early this season. Maybe Stevens should have recognized earlier that Hayward needed more time to regain his strength in a smaller role, but checking to see if the star could build back his rhythm quickly made sense. The Celtics will only reach their potential if Hayward finds himself. The less understandable mistake was setting expectations for Hayward as high as the team did. Stevens acted during training camp like the forward already looked like his former self, but as soon as the Celtics started playing games everyone could see Hayward still had a ways to go. If they had managed expectations for Hayward a little better, the reaction to his slow start would have been more favorable. Instead, the world was surprised when he lacked his burst around the rim and shocked that the starting five – such a source of optimism before the season – bellyflopped from the start. Even hyping up Hayward had marginal upside. The Celtics probably hoped to give him as much confidence as possible, knowing how much his mindset mattered while he returned from his devastating 2017 ankle injury. His situation has been tough for everyone to deal with because one top priority – getting Hayward as close to 100 percent as possible for the postseason – has occasionally clashed with what’s best for the team in the short term.

Difficult team dynamics
Since Smart joined Marcus Morris in the starting lineup on Nov. 26, the Celtics have largely played like one of the NBA’s best teams. Their 7.8 net rating over that stretch ranks second behind only Milwaukee’s 8.6. Boston’s defense has slipped a bit, but only to sixth place during these three months, while the offense has surged to third. If only looking at the outline of Boston’s statistical profile since Stevens shelved the doomed starting lineup, one would consider the team a legitimate title contender – or, since the Warriors exist, a top challenger.

But the sniping after losses has been weird. The Celtics have reacted like some of their defeats have been the worst blows they’ve ever experienced. Irving took some shots at the young guys, which may not have been a big deal, but then Brown shot back in the press, suggesting he took offense to the regular criticism. Morris shoved Brown during a timeout on the court. Irving lost it after the final shot in one game did not go to him. The Celtics held a prolonged team meeting after a 13-point loss to the Bucks that was on the surface totally understandable (both Morris and Horford did not play in the game). More recently, after blowing back-to-back 20-point leads before the All-Star break, Morris proclaimed the Celtics have not experienced as much fun as other teams.

We may never know how Stevens has tried to police the dramatic locker room. He has never been one to throw his players under the bus publicly. If he has an issue with a player, he takes it to the player man to man. Still, the fact that the Celtics have regularly aired grievances so publicly suggests Stevens has not been able to curb that habit. Has he tried to? How hard? What does he really feel about it? Again, we may never know. We do know Irving’s early-season message that the Celtics’ youth was hurting them clashed with the mentality Stevens asked his team to adopt last season. After Hayward went down, Stevens said he wanted last season’s Celtics to “beat the age thing” and “not talk about the age thing.” Albeit in a new season, Irving has gone against that mantra several times.

“I’m not really going to get into that,” Stevens said when pressed on the matter in January. “I think ultimately my focus is on how we’re playing on the court. So we’ve got a lot of good players. It’s my job to help those guys find their groove, their rhythm, their best selves. And so my focus is on making sure we play well.”

Stevens has never dealt before with team dynamics like this. In the past, his NBA teams were filled with guys mostly pleased to be playing in bigger roles than they were used to. Thomas was a sixth man before morphing into an All-Star with the Celtics. Crowder played limited minutes in Dallas before emerging as a key piece in Boston. Evan Turner was on the scrap heap before rehabilitating his reputation as a Celtics playmaker. Even last year, Brown was playing big minutes for the first time, Tatum was a rookie, and Irving – perhaps downgrading his expectations after Hayward’s injury – sounded far less stressed about his team’s shortcomings.

NBA expectations leave a real burden. Irving has been more on edge, presumably because he thinks this team could realistically win a title. Horford dealt with some knee issues that limited his impact – so important to the Celtics – early in the season. If Hayward had been right from the start, so many of the hierarchy questions would have been answered easily; it’s more difficult for guys to stew about minutes behind an All-Star talent. But his process to recovery has only furthered the complications. He, Brown, Tatum and Terry Rozier have all needed to squeeze into different roles than they enjoyed in the past. All the players knew it would take an adjustment with everyone healthy, but the amount of sacrificing has contributed to a funky atmosphere. Could Stevens have squashed all of it? Is that a fair expectation? The convergence of two returning All-Stars, several promising young players in reduced roles and Hayward’s lingering injury has given the Celtics a rare set of trying circumstances. Stevens knew he would need to navigate a number of obstacles this season, but it’s late February now and the Celtics haven’t found a happy place.

Are the locker room vibes simply the expected byproduct of the failure to win as many games as expected? Is there something more to it? Is that on Stevens? How deep do the issues go, and how much could he have done differently to avoid them?

Basketball matters
With a little change in luck, the discussion around this Boston season could be very different. By Basketball-Reference’s Pythagorean win expectation metric, the Celtics (37-23) with their scoring margin would be in line for 41 wins so far – a total that would put them third behind the Bucks and Warriors if every team had played exactly to win expectations. If the standings looked like that, some of the locker-room blow-ups may have been avoided and everyone would probably be looking at all the positives in Boston: Irving’s stellar play, Horford’s resurgence with good health, the improvements of both Brown and Hayward off the bench. Instead, the Celtics have blown a number of winnable games, leaving it impossible to ignore all the minutiae that have contributed to the up-and-down season.

• Stevens sometimes closes with Hayward in the finishing lineup even during Brown’s best outings. That’s a fair point over which to criticize the Celtics coach. Well, Boston has by far the NBA’s best clutch offense (131.1 points per 100 possessions) as well as the league’s second-best net rating in the clutch (18.9).
• The Celtics have continued to rely on Morris, over other options, though he has cooled off after a hot start. His 2.2 net rating since Jan. 1 is among the worst on the team. Well, the starting lineup with him in it is still hammering opponents with an 11.6 net rating overall. Even in the two consecutive losses after the All-Star break, the Boston starters own an impressive 8.9 net rating. The evidence suggests Morris has usually worked as a complementary piece to the best Celtics players.
• Rozier has recently taken some heat, with some pointing to his rotation-worst 0.6 on-court net rating as evidence he should receive a more limited role. Well, despite the bench’s disastrous first half in Chicago, the Rozier-Brown-Hayward trio has actually climbed all the way up to a 5.6 net rating; since Jan. 1, that group has pummeled opponents by 10.6 points per 100 possessions over 245 combined minutes. The bench, despite Rozier’s dwindling shooting efficiency, has produced some strong play lately. And Rozier, as he showed in last year’s playoffs, has upside that none of Boston’s other backup point guard options can match. It’s not hard to understand why Stevens has stuck with Rozier, despite his ugly on-off numbers.

Coaching NBA basketball means living forever in gray areas. Most of Stevens’ decisions have been at least defensible. Some of the important ones – like the length of time he left Hayward in the starting lineup – he probably got wrong. Others – like the best ways to utilize Morris and Rozier – he may still be trying to figure out. Shortly before the All-Star break, Stevens stressed that he wants to make sure the Celtics stop going through the stretches where they lose their form altogether.[/li]
[/list]
“I think I just have to do a way better job of holding us to the standard with which we need to play,” he said. “It’s not about who’s playing, it’s not about who’s in the game – who starts the game, who comes in the game. It’s just we have to play to a better standard for the full four quarters. And that’s on coaching.”

Given that Hayward hasn’t been fully healthy yet, the Celtics’ preseason expectations may have been too high. They still aren’t too far from what they want to be, but they have been inconsistent enough – and unpleasant enough – for everybody to ask what’s wrong. No longer the plucky underdogs, Boston has had trouble maximizing the most talented team of the Stevens era.

https://theathletic.com/835813/2019/02/25/brad-stevens-is-disappointed-in-himself-should-celtics-fans-feel-the-same-way/