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What the Celtics Lack
« on: February 11, 2019, 11:42:03 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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This weekend I was listening to the most recent episode of the Lowe Post, in which Zach spoke to Bobby Marks about moves that teams made at the Trade Deadline.


At one point Marks and Lowe were speaking with admiration about the Milwaukee Bucks. 

They said things like:

"Everybody knows their role and doesn't try to play beyond it."

"They play with such freedom without having to break out of the system."

"They know exactly what their identity is."



As I listened to that, my mind turned to Marcus Morris's words after the Clippers game -- how the Celtics just "aren't having fun," how guys are playing for themselves and not for each other, etc.

That description of the Bucks felt like a perfect description of all of the things that the Celtics have lacked this year.


Who are the 18-19 Celtics?

Are they an offensive team that is going to win by sharing the ball, finding the open man, and raining threes, with Kyrie's haymaker shots as the coup de grace?

Are they an aggressive, ball-hawking defensive team that's going to choke opponents out and score just enough buckets on the strength of Kyrie's crunch time wizardry?

Are they a team of versatility and skill in the vein of Kyrie, Horford, Hayward, Tatum?

Are they a tough, physical, never-back-down team in the vein of Smart, Morris, Baynes, Rozier?

Are they a team of young guys determined to prove their place in the league?

Are they a veteran team led by Kyrie, Smart, Morris, and Horford, with a talented supporting cast of young players who will get their time to shine eventually?


I don't think anybody has a clear answer to that.  Which was fine in October and even November.  It's not fine in February.


And now the additional question:

Are they Kyrie Irving plus a pile of assets to be traded for Anthony Davis this summer?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 11:49:43 AM by PhoSita »
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2019, 12:02:18 PM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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They are an undisciplined team that cannot hold leads, take ill-advised shots, plays down/up to the competition and aren't showing toughness.

All those things can change but we need more guys like Smart. We need to play with the pace and ball movement of the Warriors. It hurts the team when Kyrie is doing his thing and everyone is watching. It doesn't translate to energy on defense. Ball movement and playing for your teammate does. Too many agendas.

Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2019, 12:11:04 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I don't actually recall many times where it felt as if the team was just "watching" while Kyrie was "doing his thing."

I do think it's a problem that at least a third of the rotation is comprised of guys who are concerned about their next contract and/or believe they deserve a bigger role.

I also think it's a problem that we've seen the team swing from being a dominating defense that kept the score low to a team that scores 70-80 points a half and tries to outshoot the opponent.

It's obviously a good thing that the team has the talent to win more than one way, but I think every great team needs to know what their core identity is.  I don't think this year's team has that.


As for pace and ball movement, the Celts do generate a ton of open looks.  They have a few more iso-heavy guys than you might like, but I'm not sure it would make sense with this roster to try to enforce a more assist-focused approach to the offense. 

Not every team can be the Warriors on offense.  The key is figuring out what the team's ideal first, second, and third options are on any given play.  A team should have a varied offense with numerous weapons and a plethora of plays to run.  But a team should also have a small number of bread and butter plays that they can go to when things fall apart. 

When things are tough, do the Celtics know what their best 2-3 offensive sets are?  What's the heart of the Celtics offense?  What is the ideal distribution of shots?
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2019, 12:23:24 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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AD

Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2019, 12:53:03 PM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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The reason the defense isn't there us because guys on the team are more offensive minded. If they aren't getting buckets, they slack on defense. Name one two way player that we have? The best may be Horford.

Most of our guys do not play with the mindset of "I'm going to shut you down". Their success is predicated on how their offense is going. When Smart and AB played, it didn't matter if they hit a shot, you were in for a dogfight the entire game. We don't have those types of players.

Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2019, 12:59:40 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The reason the defense isn't there us because guys on the team are more offensive minded. If they aren't getting buckets, they slack on defense. Name one two way player that we have? The best may be Horford.

Most of our guys do not play with the mindset of "I'm going to shut you down". Their success is predicated on how their offense is going. When Smart and AB played, it didn't matter if they hit a shot, you were in for a dogfight the entire game. We don't have those types of players.


First off I would say I don't think modern defense works in terms of "I am going to shut you down."  You don't see many of those 1-on-1 defensive matchups anymore.  The modern game involves too much pick and roll and requires too much switching of assignments.


I disagree that the Celts lack two way players.  Horford is one, as you mentioned.  Smart is one as well, even if he isn't much of a scorer.  Jaylen is a two way player, at least in theory.  Morris provides value on both ends.  So does Hayward, even if he is limited.

Tatum needs to provide more consistent defensive effort, but I don't think he's a liability on defense by any means.  He needs to be more consistent in all respects.  He still hasn't figured out how to make a star-level impact on a regular basis.

Even Kyrie makes an impact on defense sometimes, and generally I think he's given good effort on that end this year.  He gets his fair share of steals.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2019, 01:00:13 PM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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Kyrie is out tomorrow. LoL SMH This guy is soft as butter. I just see no way you give him an extension. I'm sorry but this is a big game. I want to hear that he's out of the AS game as well.

Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2019, 01:01:47 PM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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The reason the defense isn't there us because guys on the team are more offensive minded. If they aren't getting buckets, they slack on defense. Name one two way player that we have? The best may be Horford.

Most of our guys do not play with the mindset of "I'm going to shut you down". Their success is predicated on how their offense is going. When Smart and AB played, it didn't matter if they hit a shot, you were in for a dogfight the entire game. We don't have those types of players.


First off I would say I don't think modern defense works in terms of "I am going to shut you down."  You don't see many of those 1-on-1 defensive matchups anymore.  The modern game involves too much pick and roll and requires too much switching of assignments.


I disagree that the Celts lack two way players.  Horford is one, as you mentioned.  Smart is one as well, even if he isn't much of a scorer.  Jaylen is a two way player, at least in theory.  Morris provides value on both ends.  So does Hayward, even if he is limited.

Tatum needs to provide more consistent defensive effort, but I don't think he's a liability on defense by any means.  He needs to be more consistent in all respects.  He still hasn't figured out how to make a star-level impact on a regular basis.

Even Kyrie makes an impact on defense sometimes, and generally I think he's given good effort on that end this year.  He gets his fair share of steals.
Always switching on defense makes you lazy. There should be some defensive principles verses just switch everything.

Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2019, 01:10:20 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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The reason the defense isn't there us because guys on the team are more offensive minded. If they aren't getting buckets, they slack on defense. Name one two way player that we have? The best may be Horford.

Most of our guys do not play with the mindset of "I'm going to shut you down". Their success is predicated on how their offense is going. When Smart and AB played, it didn't matter if they hit a shot, you were in for a dogfight the entire game. We don't have those types of players.


First off I would say I don't think modern defense works in terms of "I am going to shut you down."  You don't see many of those 1-on-1 defensive matchups anymore.  The modern game involves too much pick and roll and requires too much switching of assignments.


I disagree that the Celts lack two way players.  Horford is one, as you mentioned.  Smart is one as well, even if he isn't much of a scorer.  Jaylen is a two way player, at least in theory.  Morris provides value on both ends.  So does Hayward, even if he is limited.

Tatum needs to provide more consistent defensive effort, but I don't think he's a liability on defense by any means.  He needs to be more consistent in all respects.  He still hasn't figured out how to make a star-level impact on a regular basis.

Even Kyrie makes an impact on defense sometimes, and generally I think he's given good effort on that end this year.  He gets his fair share of steals.
Always switching on defense makes you lazy. There should be some defensive principles verses just switch everything.

I think you might remember Bradley a bit different than I do. He had moments of shutting people down, but he was pretty inconsistent.

The Celtics don't switch nearly as much as people think, even though they could. The idea is always for the big to hedge and the guard to recover. Sometimes, Smart, Brown, Irving, or Rozier can't recover, and then they switch.

They also switch on key players in key moments. For example, if Lebron is in a pick-and-roll and our two defenders are Marcus Morris and Jaylen Brown, and it's late in the shotclock, switching just makes sense.

The principle of switching is pretty simple, and if done correctly, really effective in the modern NBA. Modern NBA offenses are predicated on disadvantaging the defense, moving the ball, and getting open shots or attacking closeouts. When you switch, you force the offense to stall out, force ball movement to stop, and force the player with the ball to try to score one-on-one against a set defense. Modern NBA players can do that some, but its the most inefficient shot for most teams (not the Rockets, but still). It also creates passivity in the opposing players that don't have the basketball.

CBS system is really good. The implementation of it isn't always there, but it is winning basketball. If the Celtics force the other team to score one-on-one every possession, and the Celtics are moving the ball, getting everyone involved, and getting good shots ever possession, then they are more likely to win.
Most talent in the league. We don't want or need AD.

Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2019, 01:17:11 PM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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Sounds good but always remember the ball moves faster then bodies. So when you see the Warriors whipping the ball around and in constant motion, a defense even if switching will only rotate 2, maybe 3 times. 3 times if they're locked in.

If you're going to play 3 ball and little defense, you better shoot it good and whichever team can get to the FT line more and moves the ball will win. You will lose 28pt leads if you continue jacking 3s and the other team continues to move the ball to get drive and kick shots. Celtics just jack 3s a lot without even making the defense move.

Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2019, 03:50:01 PM »

Offline Triplenickle

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The reason the defense isn't there us because guys on the team are more offensive minded. If they aren't getting buckets, they slack on defense. Name one two way player that we have? The best may be Horford.

Most of our guys do not play with the mindset of "I'm going to shut you down". Their success is predicated on how their offense is going. When Smart and AB played, it didn't matter if they hit a shot, you were in for a dogfight the entire game. We don't have those types of players.


First off I would say I don't think modern defense works in terms of "I am going to shut you down."  You don't see many of those 1-on-1 defensive matchups anymore.  The modern game involves too much pick and roll and requires too much switching of assignments.


I disagree that the Celts lack two way players.  Horford is one, as you mentioned.  Smart is one as well, even if he isn't much of a scorer.  Jaylen is a two way player, at least in theory.  Morris provides value on both ends.  So does Hayward, even if he is limited.

Tatum needs to provide more consistent defensive effort, but I don't think he's a liability on defense by any means.  He needs to be more consistent in all respects.  He still hasn't figured out how to make a star-level impact on a regular basis.

Even Kyrie makes an impact on defense sometimes, and generally I think he's given good effort on that end this year.  He gets his fair share of steals.
Always switching on defense makes you lazy. There should be some defensive principles verses just switch everything.

I think you might remember Bradley a bit different than I do. He had moments of shutting people down, but he was pretty inconsistent.

The Celtics don't switch nearly as much as people think, even though they could. The idea is always for the big to hedge and the guard to recover. Sometimes, Smart, Brown, Irving, or Rozier can't recover, and then they switch.

They also switch on key players in key moments. For example, if Lebron is in a pick-and-roll and our two defenders are Marcus Morris and Jaylen Brown, and it's late in the shotclock, switching just makes sense.

The principle of switching is pretty simple, and if done correctly, really effective in the modern NBA. Modern NBA offenses are predicated on disadvantaging the defense, moving the ball, and getting open shots or attacking closeouts. When you switch, you force the offense to stall out, force ball movement to stop, and force the player with the ball to try to score one-on-one against a set defense. Modern NBA players can do that some, but its the most inefficient shot for most teams (not the Rockets, but still). It also creates passivity in the opposing players that don't have the basketball.

CBS system is really good. The implementation of it isn't always there, but it is winning basketball. If the Celtics force the other team to score one-on-one every possession, and the Celtics are moving the ball, getting everyone involved, and getting good shots ever possession, then they are more likely to win.

But when you switch the defenders end up in no man's land, so they're scrambling around ineffective, then someone has a step on the defender for a layup and the only thing they can do is foul or let it go.

I see them let it go so much I can't even watch the games anymore to be honest.

This team is not stopping anyone, and the entire league knows what's coming ahead of time.

Funny thing is I was over my son's house playing nba2k, and every time down the floor there was Baynes up high with the  ball going through him...every single time down the floor.

I said to myself...yep...that's the Celts offense alright :)

So you KNOW Brad needs to mix that mess up sometimes. It has become a problem and will only get less effective.

Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2019, 03:56:51 PM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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The amount if uncontested layups is unnerving. I saw at least 3 steals or deflections Kyrie could've had if he just had his hands up or waving verses by his side. Watch the play Bron lost the ball and threw it back inbounds to KCP, Kyrie had two opportunities to deflect the ball and just followed it. Of course the rebound we didn't get vs the Warriors and Lakers were huge. We need more of the hustle play Tatum had diving for the ball.

Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2019, 04:12:17 PM »

Offline Scintan

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This team has a lot of problems, and they were all either there, or foreseeable, even before the season started.

They are often stupid on offense.
They get lazy on defense.
The coach has not worked Hayward into the group intelligently and successfully.
There really isn't a coaching mechanism being used to deal with players who are repeating the same crap over and over again.
They have a problem at the 5.



And so on


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2019, 04:18:18 PM »

Offline Triplenickle

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And I forgot...Booker for what....71 points?

Those dudes should've looked in the mirror,  slapped themselves silly until they got tired and fell asleep.

Re: What the Celtics Lack
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2019, 05:49:38 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Consistency is still the main issue. Guys can't have roles with up and down play and BS experimenting. But some how they will figure it out and probably come out the East still
Trade deadline mock team: Celtics,
Irving, Rozier, Wanna
Smart, Robinson, Dozier
Tatum, Morris, Semi
Griffin, Theis, Yab
Horford, Baynes, Williams

 

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