Author Topic: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?  (Read 4158 times)

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Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« on: January 24, 2019, 04:45:12 PM »

Online Roy H.

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The other Hayward thread was mean-spirited and off the rails. Let’s keep conversation constructive.


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Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2019, 04:53:27 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Time.

When we NEED him he will BE THERE.

I believe in this dude and his game and he WILL be ok.

Give GH TIME. He WILL be there.

Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2019, 04:53:36 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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I think at this point we all know what is holding Hayward back (lingering minor pain, incomplete muscle strength recovery, confidence).

And I also think the simple answer to what he needs to get beyond those issues is 'time'.  Gordon knows what is still in front of him, and seems like the hard-working, persistent, patient type, so I think he'll eventually get there.  But it's not going to happen on any set timeline.

Time.

Beat me to it by about 10 seconds.

Fully agreed.

Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2019, 05:01:58 PM »

Offline Spicoli

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This guy just isn't very good right now. Maybe he will become the player he once was, but he's a shell of himself at this point. He has no explosion to blow by his man (he always calls for a pick) and there's not much craftiness to offset it (similar to how Luka Doncic gets his points). So we're dealing with a guy who is not that great a shooter (average to good at best), lacks any explosion, and is not that crafty. Anything he gives you at this point production wise is just gravy but my expectations for Hayward right now are zero.

Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2019, 05:04:34 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think taking a look at his numbers from 16-17 (last Utah season) compared to this season is instructive.


For everyone that doubts that Gordon was ever a star, take another look at his 16-17 stats.  He was a 22 - 5 - 3 wing with nearly 60% true shooting and a 106 defensive rating.  He had over 10 WS that season, which is excellent.

That version of Hayward would be the 3rd best wing in the East this year behind Kawhi and Giannis.


This season, Gordon's rebounding, steal rate, block rate, and assist rate are all pretty much the same (in some instances slightly higher).


The biggest differences are True Shooting, Free Throw Rate, 3P%, and Usage Rate.


Basically, his scoring efficiency is way down (TS% 59.5 to 53.9), he's not getting to the line nearly as much, and as a result he's not being used as much on offense.

In terms of shot distribution, I would note that he's getting his shots from more or less the same places with roughly the same distribution. 

The exception is that his three point attempts are up a bit (41.3% of his shots instead of 32.4% of his shots).  I think that's a function of his role in the offense.


Regarding Gordon's three point shooting, I think it's worth nothing that his three point percentage from the corner is actually slightly better than it was in 16-17 (40% versus 38%). 

I want to note as well that Gordon's shooting efficiency from 10-16 feet is excellent (46%, compared to 44% in 16-17).

Other than his three point percentage, the only area where his shooting is down significantly is inside 3 feet -- in 16-17 he finished near 70% at the rim, this year it's more like 60%.


What I take from those numbers is that Gordon's shooting from distance will come back, it's just a matter of getting his legs under him for the longer distances.


Overall, I think the numbers are really encouraging.

There's nothing there to indicate that he's lost athleticism or ability.  Rather, he just needs to gain conditioning, strength, and confidence so that he can get more scoring opportunities, get fouled more, and increase his efficiency on longer distance shots.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 05:11:02 PM by PhoSita »
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Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2019, 05:07:29 PM »

Offline RJ87

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I think people discount the second surgery he had over the summer. That reset his progress somewhat. Even so, I always thought this season would be a work in progress for him. Having your foot face the opposite direction + being off from competitive basketball for basically a year meant his return was always going to be an uphill battle. Unfortunately fans aren't patient.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 05:18:29 PM by RJ87 »
2021 Houston Rockets
PG: Kyrie Irving/Patty Mills/Jalen Brunson
SG: OG Anunoby/Norman Powell/Matisse Thybulle
SF: Gordon Hayward/Demar Derozan
PF: Giannis Antetokounmpo/Robert Covington
C: Kristaps Porzingis/Bobby Portis/James Wiseman

Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2019, 05:16:47 PM »

Offline Silky

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There are things outside of Gordon's control that prevent comparisons to old gordon.

He did break his foot bad.

However...after 15 months i do think it is completely fair to call out the passivity, the lack of shooting(after 15 months a shooter should have adjusted their form to compensate for lack of lift) and worst for me is him getting into the lane and kicking it out to an out of posituin shooter as oppesed to going up with the shot. He has zero craftiness.

He has massive mental hurdles to go along with the terrible physical ones.

Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2019, 05:19:40 PM »

Offline ozgod

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I think the 2 main issues (from my POV) are:

1. mental. He's struggled all year to trust himself to do the types of things he used to be able to do. Some of it is physical, like being able to generate his lift off his injured ankle, but the rest of it is just the fear that it will fail him again. I broke my lower leg a number of years ago and it took me more than 2 years to even start to feel like I could put the same stressors on that leg that I used to be able to, and I'm not a professional athlete. He's clearly struggling with the fear of having it fail on him again, which is why he's driving less and not going up if there's the risk of significant contact. He also seems to be a confidence person where if he misses a few shots he starts to worry about missing more and potentially "taking" shots from the many other players who need shots in this team.

2. ensemble cast. The point I was trying to make in the other thread when I brought up San Antonio 2014 was that it's not easy for Gordon, or any of them other than Kyrie, to consistently average more than 20ppg in this team. Only Kyrie takes the volume of shots that you need to take to score 20+, and his ppg average has actually dropped this year. The rest of them just aren't taking the amount of shots per game to get to that number. Gordon is playing 26 mins, down from 36min in Utah, and taking 40% less shot attempts. His per 36 split is 15/6/5, which looks mediocre for a guy earning $30m. But where will he get his minutes and points from? Unless Boston starts scoring more than 113ppg, which is 13th in the league, and more than 118ppg, which is the Dubs at 1st, the points will have to come from someone else. And everyone, including Kyrie, and with the sole exception of Mook and Jayson, is averaging lower than what they were a year ago.

That's why I brought up San Antonio, because they had a spread of 8 players who averaged more than 9 ppg:

Parker 16
Duncan 15
Kawhi 13
Ginobili 12
Belinelli 11
Mills 10
Diaw 9
Green 9

As a separate exercise it would be interesting to see everyone come up with a hypothetical points distribution for the Celtics over the course of the season - how many people we expect each player to average, assuming we score 120 points per game, which would put us at No1 in the league ahead of GS or Milwaukee. There's not going to be many people averaging 20+ I wouldn't think  :laugh:

So I'm not necessarily using ppg as the main metric to evaluate Gordon. In fact if you look at his per-36 numbers, right now they're not far off his career numbers:

Code: [Select]

Season Age Tm G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2010-11 20 UTA 72 17 1218 4.2 8.7 .485 1.0 2.2 .473 3.2 6.5 .489 2.0 2.9 .711 1.2 2.9 4.1 2.4 0.9 0.6 2.1 3.1 11.5
2011-12 21 UTA 66 58 2015 4.8 10.5 .456 1.0 2.8 .346 3.8 7.6 .496 3.4 4.1 .832 1.1 3.1 4.1 3.7 0.9 0.7 1.9 1.9 14.0
2012-13 22 UTA 72 27 2104 5.7 13.2 .435 1.7 4.2 .415 4.0 9.0 .444 4.2 5.0 .827 0.9 3.0 3.8 3.6 1.0 0.7 2.1 2.1 17.4
2013-14 23 UTA 77 77 2800 5.5 13.3 .413 1.1 3.6 .304 4.4 9.7 .453 4.0 4.9 .816 0.8 4.2 5.0 5.1 1.4 0.5 2.7 2.0 16.0
2014-15 24 UTA 76 76 2618 6.7 14.9 .445 1.7 4.5 .364 5.0 10.4 .481 5.2 6.4 .812 0.7 4.4 5.1 4.3 1.5 0.4 2.8 1.8 20.1
2015-16 25 UTA 80 80 2893 6.5 15.0 .433 1.8 5.1 .349 4.7 9.9 .477 4.9 5.9 .824 0.8 4.2 4.9 3.7 1.2 0.3 2.5 2.3 19.6
2016-17 26 UTA 73 73 2516 7.8 16.5 .471 2.1 5.4 .398 5.7 11.2 .506 5.2 6.1 .844 0.7 4.9 5.6 3.6 1.0 0.3 2.0 1.7 22.9
2017-18 27 BOS 1 1 5 7.2 14.4 .500 0.0 7.2 .000 7.2 7.2 1.000 0.0 0.0 0.0 7.2 7.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 7.2 14.4
2018-19 28 BOS 43 16 1122 5.4 12.7 .425 1.7 5.2 .319 3.7 7.4 .500 2.8 3.3 .845 1.2 5.2 6.3 4.8 1.3 0.3 2.0 2.0 15.2
Career 560 425 17291 6.0 13.6 .443 1.5 4.2 .364 4.5 9.3 .479 4.2 5.2 .821 0.9 4.0 4.9 4.0 1.2 0.5 2.3 2.1 17.8

By no means am I saying he's doing fine and this is as good as we will get. Neither am I making excuses for him. It's clear he's still wildly inconsistent and he seems to be a confidence player in that if he starts missing shots and starts to think he's holding the team back and "wasting" shots that other players could be taking his performance deteriorates, he starts to become passive and takes himself out of the game by being hesitant. The deviation between a good performance where he scores 35/9/8 or 16/10/9 and a bad one where he scores 0 or 3 and takes 4-5 shot attempts all game is still pretty huge. We would certainly expect more from a rotation player, let alone a max player.

The challenge for him is to improve his efficiency, which is at its lowest point since 2013, as well as his FTA, which is half of what he was getting in Utah. If he shoots a bit better, is less afraid of driving into the lane and getting contact and getting fouls, his ppg will go up. His rebounds and assists on a per-36 are near his career highs. It's just that there's a limit for him, as it is for everyone, to consistently get to the 20+ ppg mark which seems to be the yardstick, based on his minutes and the way he is currently being utilized. We probably won't see him, or anyone else not named Kyrie, consistently get near that until next year and Danny decides to ship some players out.

In the meantime he has to do the best he can, be efficient with what touches he gets, try and contribute in other ways, and be prepared if it happens to be his night to shine. What I want to see is a confident Hayward, not afraid to take shots when they are there to take, not afraid to drive the ball, scores at a high efficiency, and is prepared to be unselfish to make his teammates better, so that they can score more points. Whether it means he scores 10, 15, or 20, or 30. I think his ceiling is still higher than most players on this team, other than Kyrie and maybe Jayson, so if he keeps doing that, then eventually he will win back his starting spot, which means more minutes and an ability to influence the game earlier, and get back to those numbers that everyone expects of a $30m signing.



« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 05:25:43 PM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2019, 05:20:32 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I will add to what I wrote above that I continue to believe we won't see a consistent, elite-wing-level Hayward until the start of next season.  But I do think he'll get there.  Unfortunately it'll be 2 years into his 4 year deal before he provides that kind of production, but oh well.  Not his fault.

Also I think by playoff time he might be able to be that guy every 2-3 games, which could be enough to swing a series.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2019, 05:58:40 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Lack of confidence in his physical abilities and trusting his body is what is holding him back.

Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2019, 06:20:20 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Lack of confidence in his physical abilities and trusting his body is what is holding him back.

+1

Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2019, 07:01:55 PM »

Online celticinorlando

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1. Think the second surgery set him back a bunch.

2. He still doesn't trust the ankle. Watched him try not t jump off it last night.

3. Mentally he is still not close.

I think it will take him a full season to get back. Won't be until next season.

Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2019, 07:18:13 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Other than his three point percentage, the only area where his shooting is down significantly is inside 3 feet -- in 16-17 he finished near 70% at the rim, this year it's more like 60%.


An observation on this that I think shows progress in this area:

In the month of October, over his first 7 games, Gordon averaged about 6 drives per game.  His FG% on shots taken on those drives was about 30%.

During this month of January, he so far is also averaging about 6 drives per game, but his FG% on those shots is up to about 60%.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2019, 07:28:09 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

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Time.

When we NEED him he will BE THERE.

I believe in this dude and his game and he WILL be ok.

Give GH TIME. He WILL be there.

Okay Rob Williams, you heard the man. Give Hayward TIME!

Re: Gordon Hayward: What — if anything — is holding him back?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2019, 07:34:52 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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He’s still experiencing frequent soreness and made mention of needing to “grind down” scar tissue.  He himself said he hopes to be closer to normal around April or May.  Here’s hoping it’s as soon as possible.  If he has some days where he’s very sore, it probably impacts his aggression and comfort doing things. 

Gonna be a long process. Let’s hope he eventually gets to 100%