Author Topic: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years  (Read 5799 times)

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Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2019, 09:20:49 AM »

Offline heyvik

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I'm not talking about the discussion with his supporters (although that can be extremely difficult)

I find the opposite to be true, and that talking to people who don't like Pres. Trump, are just as irrational due to their hate as his followers.

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Last I heard, without a wall, the US was able to hold back the thousands upon thousands of despicable criminals and terrorist that were posing as horribly suffering people in caravans that we're coming to America in October and November and threatened the American border. How did that happen without a wall?

Numbers have dropped to 370k, which is still a boat load of people.   I think Pres. Trump, pulled up the welcome mat and it is how it has happened.  Because where I live I saw a immediate reduction of Illegals in Ohio once he went into his office.  Also, keep in mind that some states like California, probably make no arrests in this regard and the numbers are probably much higher.   We did not have sanctuary cities back in the 80-90s though the reporters do not mention this in their articles.    But you have a huge state with a big latino population that is not cooperating.  But reporters omit this because it does not fit their narrative.

Right now 14 million of California's population is Latino. In 1990 the population were  7.5 Million Latino.   

http://www.cdss.ca.gov/research/res/pdf/multireports/DemoTrendsFinal.pdf
http://ucdata.berkeley.edu/pubs/latino1/ldbintro.html

So, this also could explain some of the drop.  Here is a great read on it:

Quote
Indeed, the number of individuals apprehended annually by Border Patrol officers has declined substantially from peaks in the 1980s and 1990s, a drop in line with heightened enforcement efforts beginning under President Bill Clinton. At the same time, USBP employs almost five times as many agents today as it did 25 years ago, meaning that each USBP agent is responsible for fewer apprehensions.

But this absolute view does not tell the whole story. While the total number of apprehensions has dropped, the composition of the group of people apprehended has shifted dramatically. Specifically, the number of people coming as families ("family units" in CBP jargon), and unaccompanied children ("UACs") has spiked, accounting for a majority of apprehensions in recent months.

At the same time, destabilization and violence in the "northern triangle"—El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras—have driven families and children to make the long, often dangerous trek north to attempt to illegally enter the United States. Whether such migrants qualify as humanitarian refugees or economic migrants is a matter of debate, with the line between those categories often blurry.

The boom in unaccompanied minors and family units is further exacerbated by laws which provide preferential treatment to UACs from the northern triangle and children with or without their guardians. Under the 2008 William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act, DHS is obliged to release unaccompanied minors from "non-contiguous" countries (i.e. not Mexico) into the interior. And under current interpretation of the 1997 Flores settlement agreement, DHS can only detain any child—accompanied or not—for 20 days before releasing him into the interior.

The consequence of these rules is that minors, especially from non-contiguous countries, can expect to be released into the interior upon apprehension. Under previous policy, adults traveling with children expected not to be separated, and therefore also to be released. The Trump administration has attempted to address the Flores loophole first through its controversial family separation policy and then, subsequently, by instituting a rule meant to overturn Flores—said rule is likely to face legal challenges.
"Our southern border is a pipeline for vast quantities of illegal drugs, including meth, heroin, cocaine, and fentanyl," Trump said Tuesday.

The president is right about that. Most of the methamphetamine in the United States—which killed almost 11,000 people in 2017—is produced in cartel-run Mexican super-labs over the border. Most heroin is also Mexican, according to the Drug Enforcement Agency. Most cocaine is produced in Colombia, but almost 40 percent is smuggled through Mexico. And most fentanyl is produced in China, but Mexican drug traffickers play a role in the trade.

In other words, the southern border faces not only surging family and child immigration, but also an overwhelming drug problem—a dangerous combination.

From:

https://freebeacon.com/national-security/the-numbers-behind-a-border-crisis/

Walls work and this should not even be a talking point.   We have walls around prisons because they work.   Are they 100% effective, no, nothing is but they work and have worked for centuries.  People still escape prison but you can believe that a lot less people do because of the walls.  Are you for removing the walls?

Fiscally, is the real question, would the wall save us money or be a waste.   Is the cut down on drugs, worth it?

1. Walls don’t work. Illegal immigrants have tunneled underneath and/or erected ramps up and down walls to simply drive over them. People find a way. When East Germany erected its wall, it created a military zone, staffed by booted, machine-gun carrying guards ready to shoot to kill. Yet thousands managed to make it to West Germany anyway. More to the point, do we really want to model ourselves after communist East Germany?
2. Most illegal immigrants are “overstayers.” They come to the US legally — for vacations, business, to study, etc. — and then STAY past their visas. By 2012, overstayers accounted for 58% (THE MAJORITY!) of all unauthorized immigrants. A wall is meaningless here!
3. Walls have little impact on drugs being brought in to the US. According to the DEA, almost all drugs come in through legal points of entry, hidden in secret containers and/or among legit goods in tractor-trailers. A wall will have little to no impact on the influx of drugs into our country.
4. It’s environmentally impractical. Walls have a hard time making it through extreme weather. For example, in 2011, a flood in Arizona washed away 40 feet of STEEL fencing. Torrential rains and raging waters do serious damage. Also, conservative sources generally do not address the environmental harm that walls create, but there is plenty of documentation available that show its potential for irreparable damage to both plant and animal life.
5. A wall would forces the U.S. government to take land from private citizens in eminent domain battles. Private citizens own much of the land slated for the wall. The costs of the government snatching private land — and the legal battles that would ensue — are incalculable.
6. Border patrol agents don’t like concrete or steel walls because they block surveillance capabilities. In other words, they can’t mobilize correctly to meet challenges. So in many ways, a wall makes their job more difficult.
7. Border patrol agents say, “Walls are meaningless without agents and technology to back them up.” Are we prepared to pour countless billions annually — after the wall is built — to create a nearly 2,000 mile, militarized 24-hour surveillance border operation? Because according to patrol agents, that’s the only way a wall would work. Again, are we really, going to use East Germany, a brutal communist state, as our model here?
8. Where walls have been built, there was “no discernable impact on the influx of unauthorized aliens.” In other words, they came in elsewhere, primarily where natural barriers such as water or mountainous regions precluded a wall.
9. Trump’s $5 billion is a laughable drop in the bucket for what would ACTUALLY be needed. For example, according to the Cato Institute: An estimate for a border wall area that only covered 700 miles was originally 1.2 billion. How much did it REALLY cost? SEVEN BILLION. And that’s only for 700 miles. Whatever we think it’s going to cost, experience shows us we have to multiply it by more than 500%.
10. According to MIT engineers, the wall would cost $31.2 billion. Homeland Security estimates it at $22 billion. Given the pattern of spending mentioned in number 10 (plus Murphy’s Law), that means we’re really talking about pouring endless billions into something that doesn’t even work. And, of course, we taxpayers will be footing the bill, not Mexico. Given all the drawbacks, is that REALLY the best use of our taxes?

Conservative Sources Outlining the Uselessness of Trump’s Wall:

The Cato Institute: https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work

Former Reagan staffer and Tea-Party liaison: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2011/10/12/the-conservative-case-against-a-border-fence-trying-to-stop-illegal-immigration-with-a-really-big-fence-would-be-a-futile-waste-of-money

Chicago Tribune (conservative paper): https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-perspec-chapman-trump-wall-mexico-immigration-20180314-story.html

The National Review (conservative magazine): https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/04/donald-trump-border-wall-plan-ridiculous-guaranteed-failure/

Nonpartisan Migration Policy Institute (MPI) think tank: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/borders-and-walls-do-barriers-deter-unauthorized-migration

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2019, 10:04:33 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Last I heard, without a wall, the US was able to hold back the thousands upon thousands of despicable criminals and terrorist that were posing as horribly suffering people in caravans that we're coming to America in October and November and threatened the American border. How did that happen without a wall?

Numbers have dropped to 370k, which is still a boat load of people.   I think Pres. Trump, pulled up the welcome mat and it is how it has happened. 

They'd already plummeted well before he ever ran.




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Because where I live I saw a immediate reduction of Illegals in Ohio once he went into his office.

How are you verifying these people's citizenship? Or do you just mean you saw fewer Latinos?


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We did not have sanctuary cities back in the 80-90s though the reporters do not mention this in their articles.
   

Not true, sanctuary city movement started in the 80s, though it's grown more prominent since. Perhaps that's why the reporters refuse to say so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctuary_city#History

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The president is right about that. Most of the methamphetamine in the United States—which killed almost 11,000 people in 2017—is produced in cartel-run Mexican super-labs over the border. Most heroin is also Mexican, according to the Drug Enforcement Agency. Most cocaine is produced in Colombia, but almost 40 percent is smuggled through Mexico. And most fentanyl is produced in China, but Mexican drug traffickers play a role in the trade.

According to our own CBP, the large majority of imported drugs come through legal ports of entry in shipping containers etc.  A wall is irrelevant for stopping those channels. Biased sources like the Free Beacon very deliberately gloss over how exactly they're getting across the border because it's terrible for their arguments.

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Walls work and this should not even be a talking point.   We have walls around prisons because they work.   Are they 100% effective, no, nothing is but they work and have worked for centuries.  People still escape prison but you can believe that a lot less people do because of the walls.  Are you for removing the walls?

The logistics of securing a designed prison where you control the lives and possessions of the maybe a few thousand people who might want to get past it is vastly different from a 2000+ mile border with hundreds of millions on the other side. This should be obvious.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 10:12:15 AM by fairweatherfan »

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2019, 10:22:14 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Walls work and this should not even be a talking point.   We have walls around prisons because they work.   Are they 100% effective, no, nothing is but they work and have worked for centuries.  People still escape prison but you can believe that a lot less people do because of the walls.  Are you for removing the walls?

Fiscally, is the real question, would the wall save us money or be a waste.   Is the cut down on drugs, worth it?
you do realize that people in prisons do not have access to tools or ladders that would allow them to go over, through or under those walls don't you? 

I come to see this argument for a wall as similar to the NRA's stance on gun control.  The wall will not stop anyone determined to get into this country.  This would typically be the cartels and other criminals that set Trump and his followers in their immigration panic.  These cartels are very well funded and have the resources they need to get into this country.  The people who are coming here who are fleeing horrible circumstances in their home countries or just coming here for economic opportunity may in fact be blocked by a wall (if they're on their own but I suspect if they're hiring a 'coyote' or someone of that ilk, they'll have a way in) but these are the people that don't present the criminal element.   

It's like the NRA saying gun control only hurts good people but won't stop the bad people from getting guns.  Well, a wall won't stop the bad people from getting into the country, just the ones who aren't the 'bad' people.

Having said that, I think what gets lost in the finger pointing by the "Wallers" and the people who don't want it is that no one wants an open border and that everyone would prefer people to come in legally.  Once people can recognize that commonality, I think we can move forward as a country with a productive dialogue on how to best accomplish that.  IMO, that's not an expensive wall which the drug cartels will circumvent thus negating that as a solution. 

on a side note, is there anyone here that actually sees this border security/wall as a top priority for them?  if so, my question is why is that the case considering all the other issues we're facing in this country?  genuinely curious if this situation actually impacts someone directly and if it does, how does it impact them directly?

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2019, 10:57:19 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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President Trump: "I find China, frankly in many ways, to be far more honorable than cryin' Chuck and Nancy. I really do. I think that China is actually much easier to deal with than the opposition party."

This man is a national embarrassment.

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2019, 11:02:26 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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President Trump: "I find China, frankly in many ways, to be far more honorable than cryin' Chuck and Nancy. I really do. I think that China is actually much easier to deal with than the opposition party."

This man is a national embarrassment.

Remember when Trump repeatedly insisted he was the only Republican on Earth who could negotiate with the Democrats and he could get it done in less than an hour?  Good times, good times.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2019, 01:40:51 PM »

Offline libermaniac

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on a side note, is there anyone here that actually sees this border security/wall as a top priority for them?  if so, my question is why is that the case considering all the other issues we're facing in this country?  genuinely curious if this situation actually impacts someone directly and if it does, how does it impact them directly?
Not even close to a top priority.  That's really the relevant question.  I honestly don't think that deep down Trump really cares about it either, but he plays it up (playing on the xenophobia of a portion of his base) to rally support.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2019, 02:38:08 PM »

Offline JSD

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I don’t know what I find more hilarious. Trump, the GOAT himself, or the squealing leftist reaction to everything he does. Hilarious.

“Trump on HIS shutdown”

Bahaha

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2019, 02:59:40 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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Suppose a person thinks the wall is an awesome idea. A great idea. Do you think it's awesome to hold completely unrelated programs hostage to pay for it? 

The government isn't paying TSA agents, air traffic controllers, and the Coast Guard. The FDA says it is suspending some food inspections, and that companies can't submit new drugs to the agency to get them approved. The IRS isn't going to mail out tax refunds - or maybe it will, but there's a real question whether that is legal. There is so much more. Why are these Americans being held hostage so Trump for a wall?

If you want to pass a bill you have options.

(1) Go to the voters - tell them the other side won't pass needed laws - and win an election. Trump isn't doing this because he's already tried it. Doubling down on immigration has failed him again and again. It excites his base but alienates most voters.

(2) Make a deal. Give the other side something of value in order to get something you value. Trump isn't doing that. Interesting question why. I believe he does not give the first flying fig about the wall. It's just a symbol. He's going to put up a fight for his base, then find a way to back out. Maybe he'll declare an emergency, and when the courts rule it illegal he'll complain about the judges.

(3) He might have made this a priority over the past two years when, you know, Rs had all three branches of government and Ds offered wall funding in trade for a DACA fix. Or hey, they could have put something in the budget resolution, and been able to pass wall funding on a straight majority vote - no D votes needed.

But again, his goal is not to do anything other than rile people up.


Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2019, 03:11:59 PM »

Offline heyvik

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Suppose a person thinks the wall is an awesome idea. A great idea. Do you think it's awesome to hold completely unrelated programs hostage to pay for it? 

The government isn't paying TSA agents, air traffic controllers, and the Coast Guard. The FDA says it is suspending some food inspections, and that companies can't submit new drugs to the agency to get them approved. The IRS isn't going to mail out tax refunds - or maybe it will, but there's a real question whether that is legal. There is so much more. Why are these Americans being held hostage so Trump for a wall?

If you want to pass a bill you have options.

(1) Go to the voters - tell them the other side won't pass needed laws - and win an election. Trump isn't doing this because he's already tried it. Doubling down on immigration has failed him again and again. It excites his base but alienates most voters.

(2) Make a deal. Give the other side something of value in order to get something you value. Trump isn't doing that. Interesting question why. I believe he does not give the first flying fig about the wall. It's just a symbol. He's going to put up a fight for his base, then find a way to back out. Maybe he'll declare an emergency, and when the courts rule it illegal he'll complain about the judges.

(3) He might have made this a priority over the past two years when, you know, Rs had all three branches of government and Ds offered wall funding in trade for a DACA fix. Or hey, they could have put something in the budget resolution, and been able to pass wall funding on a straight majority vote - no D votes needed.

But again, his goal is not to do anything other than rile people up.
Great take!

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2019, 03:12:04 PM »

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Last I heard, without a wall, the US was able to hold back the thousands upon thousands of despicable criminals and terrorist that were posing as horribly suffering people in caravans that we're coming to America in October and November and threatened the American border. How did that happen without a wall?

Numbers have dropped to 370k, which is still a boat load of people.   I think Pres. Trump, pulled up the welcome mat and it is how it has happened.  Because where I live I saw a immediate reduction of Illegals in Ohio once he went into his office.  Also, keep in mind that some states like California, probably make no arrests in this regard and the numbers are probably much higher.   We did not have sanctuary cities back in the 80-90s though the reporters do not mention this in their articles.    But you have a huge state with a big latino population that is not cooperating.  But reporters omit this because it does not fit their narrative.

Right now 14 million of California's population is Latino. In 1990 the population were  7.5 Million Latino.   

http://www.cdss.ca.gov/research/res/pdf/multireports/DemoTrendsFinal.pdf
http://ucdata.berkeley.edu/pubs/latino1/ldbintro.html

So, this also could explain some of the drop.  Here is a great read on it:

Quote
Indeed, the number of individuals apprehended annually by Border Patrol officers has declined substantially from peaks in the 1980s and 1990s, a drop in line with heightened enforcement efforts beginning under President Bill Clinton. At the same time, USBP employs almost five times as many agents today as it did 25 years ago, meaning that each USBP agent is responsible for fewer apprehensions.

But this absolute view does not tell the whole story. While the total number of apprehensions has dropped, the composition of the group of people apprehended has shifted dramatically. Specifically, the number of people coming as families ("family units" in CBP jargon), and unaccompanied children ("UACs") has spiked, accounting for a majority of apprehensions in recent months.

At the same time, destabilization and violence in the "northern triangle"—El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras—have driven families and children to make the long, often dangerous trek north to attempt to illegally enter the United States. Whether such migrants qualify as humanitarian refugees or economic migrants is a matter of debate, with the line between those categories often blurry.

The boom in unaccompanied minors and family units is further exacerbated by laws which provide preferential treatment to UACs from the northern triangle and children with or without their guardians. Under the 2008 William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act, DHS is obliged to release unaccompanied minors from "non-contiguous" countries (i.e. not Mexico) into the interior. And under current interpretation of the 1997 Flores settlement agreement, DHS can only detain any child—accompanied or not—for 20 days before releasing him into the interior.

The consequence of these rules is that minors, especially from non-contiguous countries, can expect to be released into the interior upon apprehension. Under previous policy, adults traveling with children expected not to be separated, and therefore also to be released. The Trump administration has attempted to address the Flores loophole first through its controversial family separation policy and then, subsequently, by instituting a rule meant to overturn Flores—said rule is likely to face legal challenges.
"Our southern border is a pipeline for vast quantities of illegal drugs, including meth, heroin, cocaine, and fentanyl," Trump said Tuesday.

The president is right about that. Most of the methamphetamine in the United States—which killed almost 11,000 people in 2017—is produced in cartel-run Mexican super-labs over the border. Most heroin is also Mexican, according to the Drug Enforcement Agency. Most cocaine is produced in Colombia, but almost 40 percent is smuggled through Mexico. And most fentanyl is produced in China, but Mexican drug traffickers play a role in the trade.

In other words, the southern border faces not only surging family and child immigration, but also an overwhelming drug problem—a dangerous combination.

From:

https://freebeacon.com/national-security/the-numbers-behind-a-border-crisis/

Walls work and this should not even be a talking point.   We have walls around prisons because they work.   Are they 100% effective, no, nothing is but they work and have worked for centuries.  People still escape prison but you can believe that a lot less people do because of the walls.  Are you for removing the walls?

Fiscally, is the real question, would the wall save us money or be a waste.   Is the cut down on drugs, worth it?
So I guess you may have lost the cynicism I tried to impart in my post. I guess I need to use more emojis.

Really didn't need all that info, though maybe someone here may have found it useful. So, TP.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2019, 03:24:43 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I don’t know what I find more hilarious. Trump, the GOAT himself, or the squealing leftist reaction to everything he does. Hilarious.

“Trump on HIS shutdown”

Bahaha

Trump, in his own words: "If we don't get what we want ... I will shut down the government. And I am proud to shut down the government for border security.... I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it."

It is his shutdown. I made the title you're mocking, and I guess I'm wondering what's funny about it? I'm confused I guess because it seems like you're just out here trolling people who disagree with you.

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Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2019, 03:25:02 PM »

Online blink

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Suppose a person thinks the wall is an awesome idea. A great idea. Do you think it's awesome to hold completely unrelated programs hostage to pay for it? 

The government isn't paying TSA agents, air traffic controllers, and the Coast Guard. The FDA says it is suspending some food inspections, and that companies can't submit new drugs to the agency to get them approved. The IRS isn't going to mail out tax refunds - or maybe it will, but there's a real question whether that is legal. There is so much more. Why are these Americans being held hostage so Trump for a wall?

If you want to pass a bill you have options.

(1) Go to the voters - tell them the other side won't pass needed laws - and win an election. Trump isn't doing this because he's already tried it. Doubling down on immigration has failed him again and again. It excites his base but alienates most voters.

(2) Make a deal. Give the other side something of value in order to get something you value. Trump isn't doing that. Interesting question why. I believe he does not give the first flying fig about the wall. It's just a symbol. He's going to put up a fight for his base, then find a way to back out. Maybe he'll declare an emergency, and when the courts rule it illegal he'll complain about the judges.

(3) He might have made this a priority over the past two years when, you know, Rs had all three branches of government and Ds offered wall funding in trade for a DACA fix. Or hey, they could have put something in the budget resolution, and been able to pass wall funding on a straight majority vote - no D votes needed.

But again, his goal is not to do anything other than rile people up.

great post TP!

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2019, 03:29:54 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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I don’t know what I find more hilarious. Trump, the GOAT himself, or the squealing leftist reaction to everything he does. Hilarious.

“Trump on HIS shutdown”

Bahaha

I'm not laughing much about it, but I think I generally agree with you on this one.

We have our child-President holding his breath till he gets what he wants, while mom and dad smile condescendingly while trying to outsmart their child. 

It's ugly and shameful on both sides, IMO.

I heard a republican congressman (I think Fitzpatrick)  this AM on CNN do a nice job scolding both sides.  Basically saying that there is a lot of potential agreement possible if it wasn't so important to each side that they not give the other side a "win". 

What a great opportunity for Dems to act like real adults.  Instead they think they can "win" so they play the all or nothing game.  Trump's "bye-bye" is beyond anything we should expect from a leader, but Pelosi had an absolute "gimme" moment that she squandered.   When Trump says will you give me a Wall if I agree to open the government? Don't say "absolutely not" --- you knucklehead!    Say "Yes" as long as we use "Wall" to describe a non-concrete barrier that will only be used in strategic places -- and will be a addressed as part of a broader plan for border security.

Can't you just say what is right rather than play games?  Give the child a "win" and come out looking like an adult rather than getting right in his sandbox.   Man this is frustrating.     

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2019, 03:34:51 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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What a great opportunity for Dems to act like real adults.  Instead they think they can "win" so they play the all or nothing game.  Trump's "bye-bye" is beyond anything we should expect from a leader, but Pelosi had an absolute "gimme" moment that she squandered.   When Trump says will you give me a Wall if I agree to open the government? Don't say "absolutely not" --- you knucklehead!    Say "Yes" as long as we use "Wall" to describe a non-concrete barrier that will only be used in strategic places -- and will be a addressed as part of a broader plan for border security.

Why should democrats give anything on The Wall, when republicans are offering nothing beyond just funding the government, and AFTER they already passed a funding bill Trump said he would sign, then changed his mind on?

Honestly, why? Why give him anything here when there was already an agreement he reneged on? Why allow him to hold the country hostage because he was scolded by Tucker Carlson and Laura Engraham? Why agree to new terms when absolutely nothing is being offered in return that they weren't already promised?

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Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2019, 03:48:12 PM »

Offline designmao

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This man is a national embarrassment.

Trump is a human embarrasment.

 

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