Trade Irving for the sake of the team

[Chris22]

I like this team so much better without Kyrie.

If only we could trade him and Tatum and some picks for Davis.

What a monstrous overpay that would be

Hardly. It would set us up for a long time.

[Tr1boy]

Kyrie is not a ball movement problem.

Please ... PLEASE review exhibit A at 0:55 and 1:25  sec.  What is Kyrie doing/how long he is holding the ball vs what is the rest of the team doing?   Does this look like team ball movement to you?  Because in a nutshell...this is what has been going on in the 2nd half of games

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT3X8nAh63c

NOW without Kyrie, tonight....  this whole highlight clip pretty much.... does this look like what team ball movement is all about? I want you to just focus and comment on these two situations ....  don't bring up anything else/side stats etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eWJ_5FF1og

[Tr1boy]

there is better ball movement without Kyrie...

Nick disagrees ...  in his reality how is this possible? 

[KGs Knee]

I posted this in another thread and think it's meaningful.

For the 2017-2018 season, Boston's most used lineup was excellent:
Brown-Tatum-Horford-Baynes-KYRIE (354 minutes played). 

The Celtics had only two better lineups all season, actually; at least with sample sizes reasonable enough to interpret:

Brown-Tatum-Horford-Baynes-ROZIER (115 mins)

Brown-Tatum-Horford-Baynes-SMART (43 mins)

That means the Celtics' best lineups consisted of their starting 5 after swapping out Kyrie for Rozier or Smart.  Pretty powerful data.



Were the Celtics very good with Kyrie? Yes. He's a net negative defender, but very good scorer that offsets his defense.  But that the Celtics are better with two younger, borderline-starting PGs speaks volumes about his value as a teammate.

Add the fact that Kyrie (injury-prone, very reliant on quickness) will be due somewhere ~$40 million in his mid 30s, and there is plenty of cause for concern. 

https://hardwoodhoudini.com/2018/11/12/boston-celtics-holiday-gift-guide/

It doesn't really contribute much since it's 2017-18 stats. For instance, this year, when 5 man combos have played at least 20 minutes together, Kyrie is in 12 of the top 16 best net rated 5 man combos this year.

Here's the important stat: Kyrie is literally the only player on the team who when he sits the Celtics are outscored by the opponent per 100 possessions.

Kyrie also has the highest raw +/- and overall net rating.  The team is simply a considerable amount better with Kyrie playing than not playing, small sample sizes be [dang]ed.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612738/onoffcourt-summary/?sort=DIFF_NET_RATING&dir=1

[nickagneta]

Kyrie is not a ball movement problem.

Please ... PLEASE review exhibit A at 0:55 and 1:25  sec.  What is Kyrie doing/how long he is holding the ball vs what is the rest of the team doing?   Does this look like team ball movement to you?  Because in a nutshell...this is what has been going on in the 2nd half of games

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT3X8nAh63c

NOW without Kyrie, tonight....  this whole highlight clip pretty much.... does this look like what team ball movement is all about? I want you to just focus and comment on these two situations ....  don't bring up anything else/side stats etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eWJ_5FF1og

One game YouTube clips prove nothing. NOTHING!!! I refuse to watch edited YouTube clips of limited minutes to prove something happens all the time.

I am sure I can put together YouTube clips that could show Jaylen Brown to be an exceptional passer, Kyrie to be an exceptional defender and Smart to be an exceptional shooter. But they aren't. To prove things are real long term you need to prove it with long term evidence like stats. The stats simply do not bear out that Kyrie has been a problem for ball movement this year

[Tr1boy]

Kyrie is not a ball movement problem.

Please ... PLEASE review exhibit A at 0:55 and 1:25  sec.  What is Kyrie doing/how long he is holding the ball vs what is the rest of the team doing?   Does this look like team ball movement to you?  Because in a nutshell...this is what has been going on in the 2nd half of games

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT3X8nAh63c

NOW without Kyrie, tonight....  this whole highlight clip pretty much.... does this look like what team ball movement is all about? I want you to just focus and comment on these two situations ....  don't bring up anything else/side stats etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eWJ_5FF1og

One game YouTube clips prove nothing. NOTHING!!! I refuse to watch edited YouTube clips of limited minutes to prove something happens all the time.

I am sure I can put together YouTube clips that could show Jaylen Brown to be an exceptional passer, Kyrie to be an exceptional defender and Smart to be an exceptional shooter. But they aren't. To prove things are real long term you need to prove it with long term evidence like stats. The stats simply do not bear out that Kyrie has been a problem for ball movement this year

but its not one game of youtube clips... its a pattern

And so is what happened tonight 2 straight nights in a row ....

Gordon Hayward has again reminded us, why he was considered one of the top FA a few years ago

The way he plays basketball is exceptional. Team 1st basketball.  It is amazing to watch.  No question he is a better leader

[gouki88]

Kyrie is not a ball movement problem.

Please ... PLEASE review exhibit A at 0:55 and 1:25  sec.  What is Kyrie doing/how long he is holding the ball vs what is the rest of the team doing?   Does this look like team ball movement to you?  Because in a nutshell...this is what has been going on in the 2nd half of games

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT3X8nAh63c

NOW without Kyrie, tonight....  this whole highlight clip pretty much.... does this look like what team ball movement is all about? I want you to just focus and comment on these two situations ....  don't bring up anything else/side stats etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eWJ_5FF1og

One game YouTube clips prove nothing. NOTHING!!! I refuse to watch edited YouTube clips of limited minutes to prove something happens all the time.

I am sure I can put together YouTube clips that could show Jaylen Brown to be an exceptional passer, Kyrie to be an exceptional defender and Smart to be an exceptional shooter. But they aren't. To prove things are real long term you need to prove it with long term evidence like stats. The stats simply do not bear out that Kyrie has been a problem for ball movement this year

but its not one game of youtube clips... its a pattern

And so is what happened tonight 2 straight nights in a row ....

Gordon Hayward has again reminded us, why he was considered one of the top FA a few years ago

The way he plays basketball is exceptional. Team 1st basketball.  It is amazing to watch.  No question he is a better leader

C'mon dude, give it up. You can't seriously be using super short clips in YouTube to be trying to prove your point.

Kyrie isn't some sort of blackhole, and he doesn't make our team worse. In fact, everything points to the opposite being the case. Why do you continue to ignore these things, and only respond to tiny segments of an occasional response here and there?

[Tr1boy]

Kyrie is not a ball movement problem.

Please ... PLEASE review exhibit A at 0:55 and 1:25  sec.  What is Kyrie doing/how long he is holding the ball vs what is the rest of the team doing?   Does this look like team ball movement to you?  Because in a nutshell...this is what has been going on in the 2nd half of games

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT3X8nAh63c

NOW without Kyrie, tonight....  this whole highlight clip pretty much.... does this look like what team ball movement is all about? I want you to just focus and comment on these two situations ....  don't bring up anything else/side stats etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eWJ_5FF1og

One game YouTube clips prove nothing. NOTHING!!! I refuse to watch edited YouTube clips of limited minutes to prove something happens all the time.

I am sure I can put together YouTube clips that could show Jaylen Brown to be an exceptional passer, Kyrie to be an exceptional defender and Smart to be an exceptional shooter. But they aren't. To prove things are real long term you need to prove it with long term evidence like stats. The stats simply do not bear out that Kyrie has been a problem for ball movement this year

but its not one game of youtube clips... its a pattern

And so is what happened tonight 2 straight nights in a row ....

Gordon Hayward has again reminded us, why he was considered one of the top FA a few years ago

The way he plays basketball is exceptional. Team 1st basketball.  It is amazing to watch.  No question he is a better leader

C'mon dude, give it up. You can't seriously be using super short clips in YouTube to be trying to prove your point.

Kyrie isn't some sort of blackhole, and he doesn't make our team worse. In fact, everything points to the opposite being the case. Why do you continue to ignore these things, and only respond to tiny segments of an occasional response here and there?

why do YOU continue to ignore Hayward, Brown, Rozier and overall team play has looked better without Kyrie??

All this blame on Hayward, Brown, Rozier inconsistencies...  one of the key reason for the team not performing as expected/5th seed

You think thats fair?

[The Oracle]

In the minutes Kyrie has been on the floor this year the Celtics have won those minutes 25 times, lost 7 times and were tied twice.  The team as a whole has lost 14 games that Kyrie has played in.  Yes that is correct the C's have lost Kyrie's minutes only 7 times yet somehow have managed to lose 14 games that he has played in so far this year.

If you throw out the first 6 games of the year when Kyrie was still trying to get his sea legs under him the C's are 22W-4L-2T in his minutes, of those last 28 games, and yet somehow the C's lost 12 of those games. 

On the year so far the C's are +235 points in Kyrie's 1099 minutes played.  In the 745 minutes Kyrie has not been on the floor the C's are +2 points.

Kyrie on court net rating +9.1 (would rank 2nd in the league if this were the C's total net rating)
Kyrie off court net rating -1.0 (would rank 21st in the league if this were the C's total net rating)

With Kyrie on court this year the C's have produced a TS% (true shooting) of 58.0% which is a number close to what contenders put up in recent years and would rank 3rd in the league behind G.S. 58.9% and Milwaukee 58.5% this year.  With Kyrie off the court the C's TS% is 53.9% which would rank 25th in the league this year.


Conclusion is that every ounce of evidence says that the C's are under performing when Kyrie has not been in the game, to blame Kyrie for the struggles this team has endured so far this season is nonsense.  This team will be a juggernaut when Hayward gets fully squared away, the injury bug alleviates a little and the youngsters settle into their roles.  Kyrie is vital to the success and title contention for this team.  Stop looking for someone to blame erroneously and just enjoy the ride.

[gouki88]

Kyrie is not a ball movement problem.

Please ... PLEASE review exhibit A at 0:55 and 1:25  sec.  What is Kyrie doing/how long he is holding the ball vs what is the rest of the team doing?   Does this look like team ball movement to you?  Because in a nutshell...this is what has been going on in the 2nd half of games

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT3X8nAh63c

NOW without Kyrie, tonight....  this whole highlight clip pretty much.... does this look like what team ball movement is all about? I want you to just focus and comment on these two situations ....  don't bring up anything else/side stats etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eWJ_5FF1og

One game YouTube clips prove nothing. NOTHING!!! I refuse to watch edited YouTube clips of limited minutes to prove something happens all the time.

I am sure I can put together YouTube clips that could show Jaylen Brown to be an exceptional passer, Kyrie to be an exceptional defender and Smart to be an exceptional shooter. But they aren't. To prove things are real long term you need to prove it with long term evidence like stats. The stats simply do not bear out that Kyrie has been a problem for ball movement this year

but its not one game of youtube clips... its a pattern

And so is what happened tonight 2 straight nights in a row ....

Gordon Hayward has again reminded us, why he was considered one of the top FA a few years ago

The way he plays basketball is exceptional. Team 1st basketball.  It is amazing to watch.  No question he is a better leader

C'mon dude, give it up. You can't seriously be using super short clips in YouTube to be trying to prove your point.

Kyrie isn't some sort of blackhole, and he doesn't make our team worse. In fact, everything points to the opposite being the case. Why do you continue to ignore these things, and only respond to tiny segments of an occasional response here and there?

why do YOU continue to ignore Hayward, Brown, Rozier and overall team play has looked better without Kyrie??

All this blame on Hayward, Brown, Rozier inconsistencies...  one of the key reason for the team not performing as expected/5th seed

You think thats fair?

If there was evidence to support your opinion it might not be ignored.

[RockinRyA]

Kyrie is not a ball movement problem.

Please ... PLEASE review exhibit A at 0:55 and 1:25  sec.  What is Kyrie doing/how long he is holding the ball vs what is the rest of the team doing?   Does this look like team ball movement to you?  Because in a nutshell...this is what has been going on in the 2nd half of games

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT3X8nAh63c

NOW without Kyrie, tonight....  this whole highlight clip pretty much.... does this look like what team ball movement is all about? I want you to just focus and comment on these two situations ....  don't bring up anything else/side stats etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eWJ_5FF1og

One game YouTube clips prove nothing. NOTHING!!! I refuse to watch edited YouTube clips of limited minutes to prove something happens all the time.

I am sure I can put together YouTube clips that could show Jaylen Brown to be an exceptional passer, Kyrie to be an exceptional defender and Smart to be an exceptional shooter. But they aren't. To prove things are real long term you need to prove it with long term evidence like stats. The stats simply do not bear out that Kyrie has been a problem for ball movement this year

This is the same method he used to declare that Mickey is the next coming.

[Tr1boy]

Kyrie is not a ball movement problem.

Please ... PLEASE review exhibit A at 0:55 and 1:25  sec.  What is Kyrie doing/how long he is holding the ball vs what is the rest of the team doing?   Does this look like team ball movement to you?  Because in a nutshell...this is what has been going on in the 2nd half of games

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT3X8nAh63c

NOW without Kyrie, tonight....  this whole highlight clip pretty much.... does this look like what team ball movement is all about? I want you to just focus and comment on these two situations ....  don't bring up anything else/side stats etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eWJ_5FF1og

One game YouTube clips prove nothing. NOTHING!!! I refuse to watch edited YouTube clips of limited minutes to prove something happens all the time.

I am sure I can put together YouTube clips that could show Jaylen Brown to be an exceptional passer, Kyrie to be an exceptional defender and Smart to be an exceptional shooter. But they aren't. To prove things are real long term you need to prove it with long term evidence like stats. The stats simply do not bear out that Kyrie has been a problem for ball movement this year

This is the same method he used to declare that Mickey is the next coming.

Same method to declare Fultz would be a dud... same method to show what a black hole Rondo was for the Celts team before being traded

Same method to prove you are wrong...

What is your point?  Seems like "zero" to add to the conversation

[gouki88]

Kyrie is not a ball movement problem.

Please ... PLEASE review exhibit A at 0:55 and 1:25  sec.  What is Kyrie doing/how long he is holding the ball vs what is the rest of the team doing?   Does this look like team ball movement to you?  Because in a nutshell...this is what has been going on in the 2nd half of games

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT3X8nAh63c

NOW without Kyrie, tonight....  this whole highlight clip pretty much.... does this look like what team ball movement is all about? I want you to just focus and comment on these two situations ....  don't bring up anything else/side stats etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eWJ_5FF1og

One game YouTube clips prove nothing. NOTHING!!! I refuse to watch edited YouTube clips of limited minutes to prove something happens all the time.

I am sure I can put together YouTube clips that could show Jaylen Brown to be an exceptional passer, Kyrie to be an exceptional defender and Smart to be an exceptional shooter. But they aren't. To prove things are real long term you need to prove it with long term evidence like stats. The stats simply do not bear out that Kyrie has been a problem for ball movement this year

This is the same method he used to declare that Mickey is the next coming.

Same method to declare Fultz would be a dud... same method to show what a black hole Rondo was for the Celts team before being traded

Same method to prove you are wrong...

What is your point?  Seems like "zero" to add to the conversation

It's pretty clear that his point is your methodology is incredibly flawed, and as such any conclusions shouldn't really be taken seriously

[Alleyoopster]

Stats indicate the C's are much better with Kyrie on the court.

Though, it might be interesting to find out how the team reacts if he dribbled less. Strange as it might be...it could turn out he might be a better leader by not being a leader (if that makes sense?).

Then again, this could be conjecture on my part. Most of the reactions to this post follow games against weak or depleted teams. How would the Celtics perform without Kyrie against top performing teams away from home? Probably, not nearly as well.

[Androslav]

I can't wait for this senseless thread to die out.