Author Topic: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?  (Read 2136 times)

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Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2018, 05:18:38 PM »

Online Roy H.

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This Jabari issue is certainly taking a long time to get resolved

If theyíre waiting for the court case to be finished, thereís no guarantee that itís resolved any time soon.  The Celts may just have to eat the luxury tax hit.


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Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2018, 05:21:30 PM »

Online gouki88

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Brown's hands are too small and it's really hindering his ability to control the ball on shots, dribbling and dunks. Rozier needs a lot of mins to get into a groove...that's not happening here.

To Magic - Brown, Rozier, Theis and a pick.

To Celtics - Vucevic and Gordon. Gordon is already signed for 4 yrs.

Let Jabari Bird go and sign Courtney Lee

Vucevic
Horford
Tatum
Hayward
Irving

Smart
Lee
Semi
Gordon
Baynes/Williams
Donít know if the Magic go for it, but this deal makes us a lot better. Iíd probably rather Vuce off the bench where he could have the whole offence ran through him, and start either Baynes or Gordon, but that would make us very hard to stop.

The Bird situation is a complete mess. Hopefully resolved soon
Doesn't matter if Magic would go for it the salaries aren't even close to matching. Orlando $33 million. Boston $9.5 million
Oh yeah, it'd have to wait until next offseason when Rozier comes off his rookie deal.

Either way, I'd only really want Brown gone if we're nabbing AD next offseason

Re: What will a package of brown get us
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2018, 05:31:04 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I understand he's still raw and young. But at the same time...something is missing. I'm not seeing a slow steady improvement, never mind a burst of improvement. He disappears in total much too often having no effect on the game. 

I'm hoping for a Victor Oladipo type of surge in the near future.
Brown had a giant burst of improvement last year. It's difficult to show much of an offensive improvement this year as he is being used exclusively as the 5th option on offense with the starters, which is the lineup he plays the most minutes with. He, along with everyone else, is still adjusting to their roles with a healthy Hayward and Irving being back on the team.

And he has definitely improved his defense this year as he is always given the other teams best offensive player to cover and does a stellar job. That doesn't even include the fact he has improved his handle for the second straight year and his passing is way better. He is making the right pass, on the money, almost every time he drives and is closed off for a layups.

Brown has been inconsistent but he has had to adjust more than any other player on the team. He went from a #1 or #2 offensive option last year to a #5 offensive option this year. But the kid is loaded with untapped potential. You don't trade him because he hasn't played like a superstar 15 games into this season. That's a hoorble over reaction move and one Danny Ainge would never make.

To the OP - Who's the other guy you're talking about...Rozier?

He's 22 years old, still raw, and yet has proved he can play at a high level in the playoffs.

It would be foolish to throw him away without getting something very valuable in return.

Precisely.

I wish I had been able to watch the first three quarters today, but couldn't cos of work...but from what I've heard, Brown played fantastic defense of Kawhii during those quarters. Brown has once again showed flashes this year on offense, sporting a cleaner stroke from three.

Down the stretch, Stevens probably went with Mook because of his size on defense against Kawhii and reliableness on offence. This is sensible for a team with finals aspirations - while Brown is far more talented, Mook has certain advantages. Brown is still just 22.
Oops.  Yes, rozier the other guy.  As for brown, weíll come to a point soon where youth will no longer be used as a crutch for him.  His basketball IQ is crazy bad.  Thatís not a good sign for a star.

You keep saying over and over again that Brown's BBIQ is low but just because you say it over and over again doesn't make it true. If his BBIQ was so low he would never have emerged as one of the best defenders in the league at 22. If his IQ was so low his handle and passing wouldn't have improved anywhere near that it has since his rookie year. If his IQ was so low he wouldn't be the best cutter to the basket off the ball on the team. If his IQ was so low he wouldn't be making the proper defensive switches nearly every time. Brown's BBIQ is just fine if not very good.
Let me restate.  Browns feel for the game is awful.  And I keep saying it because itís true.  I donít think itís even a debatable point.

And people keep calling browna future star.  He and Mitchell are basically the same age and their planets apart in terms of skill.
It's completely debateable and I think you're completely wrong. He was exceptional last year playing a role he thrived in. He is being asked to play a completely different role this year and has the least amount of touches of the starting 5. He's just been forcing things which has led him to be inconsistent.
I don't know about touches, but he has more shots then both Hayward and Horford.  He also has more attempts per game then he had last year.  Irving is the guy whose attempts are lower than last year.  And even things like USG aren't much different than last year.  The touches are there for Brown, he just isn't utilizing them.
https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/

Just scroll down

Kyrie 73.2
Horford 53.6
Tatum 45.3
Hayward 44.1
Morris 39
Smart 34.7
Brown 30.1
 
Last year Brown 38.9 touches

Last year touches in playoffs Brown 44.9
 
He is touching the ball nearly 25% less than last season and 33% less than last he played in the playoffs. It's pretty obvious he is forcing things and they using him as a #5 offensive option.
He had less touches than Irving, Tatum, Smart, Horford, Morris, and Monroe last year though as well.  This isn't a new thing.  You are just trying to come up with excuses for Brown's inexcusably bad play that just isn't there. 

Re: What will a package of brown get us
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2018, 05:37:13 PM »

Offline CelticsJG

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I understand he's still raw and young. But at the same time...something is missing. I'm not seeing a slow steady improvement, never mind a burst of improvement. He disappears in total much too often having no effect on the game. 

I'm hoping for a Victor Oladipo type of surge in the near future.
Brown had a giant burst of improvement last year. It's difficult to show much of an offensive improvement this year as he is being used exclusively as the 5th option on offense with the starters, which is the lineup he plays the most minutes with. He, along with everyone else, is still adjusting to their roles with a healthy Hayward and Irving being back on the team.

And he has definitely improved his defense this year as he is always given the other teams best offensive player to cover and does a stellar job. That doesn't even include the fact he has improved his handle for the second straight year and his passing is way better. He is making the right pass, on the money, almost every time he drives and is closed off for a layups.

Brown has been inconsistent but he has had to adjust more than any other player on the team. He went from a #1 or #2 offensive option last year to a #5 offensive option this year. But the kid is loaded with untapped potential. You don't trade him because he hasn't played like a superstar 15 games into this season. That's a hoorble over reaction move and one Danny Ainge would never make.

To the OP - Who's the other guy you're talking about...Rozier?

He's 22 years old, still raw, and yet has proved he can play at a high level in the playoffs.

It would be foolish to throw him away without getting something very valuable in return.

Precisely.

I wish I had been able to watch the first three quarters today, but couldn't cos of work...but from what I've heard, Brown played fantastic defense of Kawhii during those quarters. Brown has once again showed flashes this year on offense, sporting a cleaner stroke from three.

Down the stretch, Stevens probably went with Mook because of his size on defense against Kawhii and reliableness on offence. This is sensible for a team with finals aspirations - while Brown is far more talented, Mook has certain advantages. Brown is still just 22.
Oops.  Yes, rozier the other guy.  As for brown, weíll come to a point soon where youth will no longer be used as a crutch for him.  His basketball IQ is crazy bad.  Thatís not a good sign for a star.

You keep saying over and over again that Brown's BBIQ is low but just because you say it over and over again doesn't make it true. If his BBIQ was so low he would never have emerged as one of the best defenders in the league at 22. If his IQ was so low his handle and passing wouldn't have improved anywhere near that it has since his rookie year. If his IQ was so low he wouldn't be the best cutter to the basket off the ball on the team. If his IQ was so low he wouldn't be making the proper defensive switches nearly every time. Brown's BBIQ is just fine if not very good.
Let me restate.  Browns feel for the game is awful.  And I keep saying it because itís true.  I donít think itís even a debatable point.

And people keep calling browna future star.  He and Mitchell are basically the same age and their planets apart in terms of skill.
It's completely debateable and I think you're completely wrong. He was exceptional last year playing a role he thrived in. He is being asked to play a completely different role this year and has the least amount of touches of the starting 5. He's just been forcing things which has led him to be inconsistent.
I don't know about touches, but he has more shots then both Hayward and Horford.  He also has more attempts per game then he had last year.  Irving is the guy whose attempts are lower than last year.  And even things like USG aren't much different than last year.  The touches are there for Brown, he just isn't utilizing them.
https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/

Just scroll down

Kyrie 73.2
Horford 53.6
Tatum 45.3
Hayward 44.1
Morris 39
Smart 34.7
Brown 30.1
 
Last year Brown 38.9 touches

Last year touches in playoffs Brown 44.9
 
He is touching the ball nearly 25% less than last season and 33% less than last he played in the playoffs. It's pretty obvious he is forcing things and they using him as a #5 offensive option.

Touching the ball 9 more times is going to change how much he is sucking. Even with a reduce touches he still has the same usg and 3PT rate from last year.
 
He has poor feel and low BBIQ. It is showing right now.

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2018, 05:43:48 PM »

Online Celtics4ever

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This Jabari issue is certainly taking a long time to get resolved

We should cut him and be done with it.

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2018, 05:53:42 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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This Jabari issue is certainly taking a long time to get resolved

We should cut him and be done with it.

I think we are waiting for the league to take care of it so that we don't have any legal issues with the player's union.

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2018, 09:03:02 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I doesn't make sense to trade these two players as there isn't enough salary involved to get a good player back.  Plus, I have not given up on Brown and I doubt the Celtics have either.  I think he overachieved last season and is no doubt under achieving this season.  I think we will soon see the player from last season again and for a long time.  Maybe Brown and Rozier for Towns which works for salary but hard to believe that Minny would do it.

Jonathon Issac was mentioned.  I would consider trading Rozier (something else would need to be included) for Issac but not Brown.  We could use the size.  I say consider because I don't really know how good he is.

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2018, 11:30:21 PM »

Offline CelticsElite

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This Jabari issue is certainly taking a long time to get resolved

We should cut him and be done with it.
what if he is found innocent ? Ever hear of innocent before proven guilty? We live in America not Saudi Arabia

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2018, 11:39:33 PM »

Online Roy H.

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This Jabari issue is certainly taking a long time to get resolved

We should cut him and be done with it.
what if he is found innocent ? Ever hear of innocent before proven guilty? We live in America not Saudi Arabia

Even if heís acquitted thereís no way the Celtics keep him. He beat the hell out of a woman. Thereís no denying that aspect of the case.


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Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2018, 10:55:01 AM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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I believe Brown and Tatum are pressing because Hayward is back and now Morris is playing well. They probably know everyone isn't going to be kept

I'm not sure Brown is going to hit that ceiling.

I'm liking what I see in Hayward being a playmaker until he gets all his athleticism back. I'd like to see the ball in his hands more because he's going to try and make the right play most of the time. Brown wants the "ohh-ahh" play verses keeping things simple.

I think it Tatum was given more post ups he would be deadly.

The money doesn't matchup to get Gordon from the Magic but I think the Magic roster is the one to target.

 

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