What is the hold-up on #5 ?

[GreenShooter]

I am a little surprised that wasn't scheduled for this season (unless they haven't announced it.)

If not this season, then I would think DEFINITELY next season.

Without KG, we don't win that title in '08

Without #20 we don't win it either. And if Ray hadn't shot 3-14(!) in game 7 against the Lakers we'd have won a second title with that core. It's not all on him but man that is so unlike him to shoot that bad. Same with Pierce shooting 5-15. That's a game I still haven't gotten over.

[Donoghus]

Are you so sure Allen wasn't the person responsible for the culture change?

I am sure, Ray's defense was not that good and Garnett demanded team mates play hard and lead by example.

It was definitely Garnett.  The way that team was perceived in town before & after the team was changed as a direct result of the Garnett acquisition.  He helped put the Celtics back on the map for the casuals in Boston. 

Also, on the court, you could see the team feed off his energy.  He was the alpha who got everyone around him to buy in.

[CF033]

I agree with those who don't think #5 should be retired as a Celtic. I just don't think he was here long enough to hang out in the rafters with the likes of Bird, McHale, Pierce, Russel, etc.

If he isn't already he should def be retired by the Timberwolves.

[Moranis]

Are you so sure Allen wasn't the person responsible for the culture change?

I am sure, Ray's defense was not that good and Garnett demanded team mates play hard and lead by example.

It was definitely Garnett.  The way that team was perceived in town before & after the team was changed as a direct result of the Garnett acquisition.  He helped put the Celtics back on the map for the casuals in Boston. 

Also, on the court, you could see the team feed off his energy.  He was the alpha who got everyone around him to buy in.

Sure, but Allen came in that same summer as Garnett.  And Allen's 3 point shooter, made the entire offense function.  It also helped that Allen was still very good off the dribble as well.  Without Allen there is no way the Celtics win the title, and frankly they might not have made the Finals at all without him (the same is also true of Garnett and I'm not suggesting otherwise).  His ability to keep defenses honest has been greatly underrated and while the teams played excellent defense, offense has always been more important and in that Allen was more influential than Garnett.  Again, as I've said I'm playing a bit of a devil's advocate with this, but there are strong arguments that Allen was at least as equally responsible for the Celtic's run those seasons as Garnett was and I certainly don't think it is a coincidence that the 1 season they played with Allen, the team was very mediocre, as they just never replaced his shooting or overall offensive ability.   

[Donoghus]

Are you so sure Allen wasn't the person responsible for the culture change?

I am sure, Ray's defense was not that good and Garnett demanded team mates play hard and lead by example.

It was definitely Garnett.  The way that team was perceived in town before & after the team was changed as a direct result of the Garnett acquisition.  He helped put the Celtics back on the map for the casuals in Boston. 

Also, on the court, you could see the team feed off his energy.  He was the alpha who got everyone around him to buy in.

Sure, but Allen came in that same summer as Garnett.  And Allen's 3 point shooter, made the entire offense function.  It also helped that Allen was still very good off the dribble as well.  Without Allen there is no way the Celtics win the title, and frankly they might not have made the Finals at all without him (the same is also true of Garnett and I'm not suggesting otherwise).  His ability to keep defenses honest has been greatly underrated and while the teams played excellent defense, offense has always been more important and in that Allen was more influential than Garnett.  Again, as I've said I'm playing a bit of a devil's advocate with this, but there are strong arguments that Allen was at least as equally responsible for the Celtic's run those seasons as Garnett was and I certainly don't think it is a coincidence that the 1 season they played with Allen, the team was very mediocre, as they just never replaced his shooting or overall offensive ability.   

You're overthinking this.  If we're simply discussing culture change, it was KG's arrival.  Plain & simple.  End of story.

Now if you want to talk about how that team won a title that season, its a different story and, in hindsight, there are probably plenty of people who downplay Ray's role on that team which is very unfortunate as there is no title in '08 without Ray's contributions.

But, culture based, it was KG.  That simple.

[Rosco917]

KG is a Timberwolf. If we raise his number to the rafters, then so should be the numbers of Rondo and Ray Allen. They did just as much as KG did to win a ring in 08.

Paul Pierce was a Celtic, he withstood years of terrible teams patiently waiting for his chance to get a ring. His number deserved to be raised to the rafters.

 

[Moranis]

Are you so sure Allen wasn't the person responsible for the culture change?

I am sure, Ray's defense was not that good and Garnett demanded team mates play hard and lead by example.

It was definitely Garnett.  The way that team was perceived in town before & after the team was changed as a direct result of the Garnett acquisition.  He helped put the Celtics back on the map for the casuals in Boston. 

Also, on the court, you could see the team feed off his energy.  He was the alpha who got everyone around him to buy in.

Sure, but Allen came in that same summer as Garnett.  And Allen's 3 point shooter, made the entire offense function.  It also helped that Allen was still very good off the dribble as well.  Without Allen there is no way the Celtics win the title, and frankly they might not have made the Finals at all without him (the same is also true of Garnett and I'm not suggesting otherwise).  His ability to keep defenses honest has been greatly underrated and while the teams played excellent defense, offense has always been more important and in that Allen was more influential than Garnett.  Again, as I've said I'm playing a bit of a devil's advocate with this, but there are strong arguments that Allen was at least as equally responsible for the Celtic's run those seasons as Garnett was and I certainly don't think it is a coincidence that the 1 season they played with Allen, the team was very mediocre, as they just never replaced his shooting or overall offensive ability.   

You're overthinking this.  If we're simply discussing culture change, it was KG's arrival.  Plain & simple.  End of story.

Now if you want to talk about how that team won a title that season, its a different story and, in hindsight, there are probably plenty of people who downplay Ray's role on that team which is very unfortunate as there is no title in '08 without Ray's contributions.

But, culture based, it was KG.  That simple.

Ubuntu fits a lot more with Allen's personality in my mind than with KG's.  And no Allen also means no KG.  I am playing a devil's advocate in this, but mostly because Allen hasn't been properly remembered for he brought to Boston.

[nickagneta]

Wasn't Ubuntu all Doc Rivers idea? And didn't every Celtic buy into the idea of Ubuntu regardless of personality? I don't get the idea that Allen's personality fit better into Ubuntu than any other player.

[Moranis]

Wasn't Ubuntu all Doc Rivers idea? And didn't every Celtic buy into the idea of Ubuntu regardless of personality? I don't get the idea that Allen's personality fit better into Ubuntu than any other player.

Yeah, Doc came up with the idea to apply the term to the Celtics, but in my opinion Allen is the one that sacrificed the most and his game most easily adapted to the collective success mantra of Ubuntu.  That certainly doesn't mean Garnett and Pierce didn't buy in, they did, but to me I saw Allen sacrifice a lot more than KG and PP for the greater good and that was what I was getting at.

[RockinRyA]

Are you so sure Allen wasn't the person responsible for the culture change?

I am sure, Ray's defense was not that good and Garnett demanded team mates play hard and lead by example.

It was definitely Garnett.  The way that team was perceived in town before & after the team was changed as a direct result of the Garnett acquisition.  He helped put the Celtics back on the map for the casuals in Boston. 

Also, on the court, you could see the team feed off his energy.  He was the alpha who got everyone around him to buy in.

Sure, but Allen came in that same summer as Garnett.  And Allen's 3 point shooter, made the entire offense function.  It also helped that Allen was still very good off the dribble as well.  Without Allen there is no way the Celtics win the title, and frankly they might not have made the Finals at all without him (the same is also true of Garnett and I'm not suggesting otherwise).  His ability to keep defenses honest has been greatly underrated and while the teams played excellent defense, offense has always been more important and in that Allen was more influential than Garnett.  Again, as I've said I'm playing a bit of a devil's advocate with this, but there are strong arguments that Allen was at least as equally responsible for the Celtic's run those seasons as Garnett was and I certainly don't think it is a coincidence that the 1 season they played with Allen, the team was very mediocre, as they just never replaced his shooting or overall offensive ability.   

You're overthinking this.  If we're simply discussing culture change, it was KG's arrival.  Plain & simple.  End of story.

Now if you want to talk about how that team won a title that season, its a different story and, in hindsight, there are probably plenty of people who downplay Ray's role on that team which is very unfortunate as there is no title in '08 without Ray's contributions.

But, culture based, it was KG.  That simple.

Ubuntu fits a lot more with Allen's personality in my mind than with KG's.  And no Allen also means no KG.  I am playing a devil's advocate in this, but mostly because Allen hasn't been properly remembered for he brought to Boston.

Ubuntu=allen? The aame Ray Allen who complained about touches, who complained about trade rumors despite other guys like pierce and rondo being there as well, and the same allen who got mad that he got benched in favor of AB and the team performed better becauae of it? Allen ia the opposite of ubuntu!

[celticsclay]

Are you so sure Allen wasn't the person responsible for the culture change?

I am sure, Ray's defense was not that good and Garnett demanded team mates play hard and lead by example.

It was definitely Garnett.  The way that team was perceived in town before & after the team was changed as a direct result of the Garnett acquisition.  He helped put the Celtics back on the map for the casuals in Boston. 

Also, on the court, you could see the team feed off his energy.  He was the alpha who got everyone around him to buy in.

Sure, but Allen came in that same summer as Garnett.  And Allen's 3 point shooter, made the entire offense function.  It also helped that Allen was still very good off the dribble as well.  Without Allen there is no way the Celtics win the title, and frankly they might not have made the Finals at all without him (the same is also true of Garnett and I'm not suggesting otherwise).  His ability to keep defenses honest has been greatly underrated and while the teams played excellent defense, offense has always been more important and in that Allen was more influential than Garnett.  Again, as I've said I'm playing a bit of a devil's advocate with this, but there are strong arguments that Allen was at least as equally responsible for the Celtic's run those seasons as Garnett was and I certainly don't think it is a coincidence that the 1 season they played with Allen, the team was very mediocre, as they just never replaced his shooting or overall offensive ability.   

You're overthinking this.  If we're simply discussing culture change, it was KG's arrival.  Plain & simple.  End of story.

Now if you want to talk about how that team won a title that season, its a different story and, in hindsight, there are probably plenty of people who downplay Ray's role on that team which is very unfortunate as there is no title in '08 without Ray's contributions.

But, culture based, it was KG.  That simple.

Ubuntu fits a lot more with Allen's personality in my mind than with KG's.  And no Allen also means no KG.  I am playing a devil's advocate in this, but mostly because Allen hasn't been properly remembered for he brought to Boston.

Ubuntu=allen? The aame Ray Allen who complained about touches, who complained about trade rumors despite other guys like pierce and rondo being there as well, and the same allen who got mad that he got benched in favor of AB and the team performed better becauae of it? Allen ia the opposite of ubuntu!

Weren't there also quotes from the players how Allen was the one guy that didn't really get into the great chemistry play the rest of the players off the court? They would all do team dinners, and go to each other's charity events and said Ray Allen was the one guy that never wanted to do them. Does anyone remember these quotes and stories? Everything I have ever raid has credited KG with a culture change and allen, if anything, the opposite.

[hwangjini_1]

i am fine with them taking their time. as unpopular here as it may be, i don't think #5 should retired for kg.

he was here too short a time and has a single championship. if you wish to point to other celtics who have retired and numbers and only one championship, i won't object.

Big Ed didn't bring championship to the Celtics (but he's intrumental to the Russell trade) and still got his number is still retired by the team. KG stayed as much as him with the team (6 years).

Dennis Johnson only stayed one year longer than KG too.

again, please do not assume i am advocating that all the celtics with retired numbers are automatically supported by me. quite the opposite.

but those numbers that are retired should not be unretired. too tacky. we cannot control past decisions, but we can hope to control current ones.

[bknova]

I'm all for retiring number 5. It wasn't just the championship, he put the C's back on the map and restored Celtic pride.  He and Pierce were not jus the embodiment of Celtic pride, but were the faces of an unbelievable era of Celtic basketball. One that the entire league watched. He wore the Celtic pride like a badge and made us a desirable franchise again.

This current Celtic era isn't happening without him.  And that's why no one else, ever should where Celtic number 5.

[gouki88]

I'm all for retiring number 5. It wasn't just the championship, he put the C's back on the map and restored Celtic pride.  He and Pierce were not jus the embodiment of Celtic pride, but were the faces of an unbelievable era of Celtic basketball. One that the entire league watched. He wore the Celtic pride like a badge and made us a desirable franchise again.

This current Celtic era isn't happening without him.  And that's why no one else, ever should where Celtic number 5.

I think this is a big thing. Without KG and the way he to this day raves positively about Boston, we may never sign Horford. We definitely miss out on JB, JT and Kyrie through the trade he graciously went with to Brooklyn.

[Bobshot]

I can see arguments for not retiring KG's number. He was vital to winning one title. But just one. Then he hurt his knee, and never really got back to where he was. Neither did the team. As I recall, the ownership maybe decided one championship was enough, and went under the cap--not re-signing Posey, Perkins and others. Posey got some ridiculous offer from N.O.? was it? And Wyc seemed to think defensive players like Perk shouldn't be paid. Sometimes you have to learn the hard way. And then they lost to Miami in the East finals when Bradley hurt his shoulder. Lucky Miami. The Celtics had them beat.

I also think KG has an identity with the Timberwolves--he was drafted by them and played most of his years there. Perhaps the Celtics think retiring his number would be an affront to them.

Un-retiring numbers from the great Championship dynasty teams? Is that a joke? All the great ones are right up there where they belong. I saw them all play.