Kyrie vs. Dame

[Big333223]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NAugSjnAzU

A video breaking down Kyrie vs. Dame. It takes the position that Kyrie is more popular but actually the two are very close and concludes that it's impossible to say who is the better player. I agree with that, although I am very happy with Kyrie.

But I think the video is interesting in light of the All NBA teams last year. Dame made the 1st team and Kyrie didn't make any. But when you look at their numbers, they're incredibly similar and things easily could've been reversed.

Dame averaged 2 more points, 1 more assist, and slightly more rebounds in 4 more mpg but Kyrie was more efficient at the rim, on 2P jumpers, and on 3P jumpers and they're FT% and TO's are very similar.

The big thing for Kyrie last season was that he only played 60 games and Dame played 73. If Kyrie had played 73 games last season, I think this conversation would've been very different. Especially when you start looking at team record. Boston won 6 more games than Portland last year. Portland only won 3 more games than Denver and Denver didn't make the playoffs.

And that's the more interesting part of all of this, to me. Portland was the #3 seed in the West last year, finishing the regular season on an 18-7 run. Had they gone 16-9, just 2 fewer wins, in those finals 25 games (still better than their final win% on the season) they would've found themselves in a 3-way tie at the bottom of the playoff bracket in the West.

Now let's imagine the numbers remain exactly the same, the two play exactly the same as they did but Kyrie played 73 games and his team had 55 wins, 2nd best in the East while Dame's team wound up with 49 wins and, let's say, 7th in the West after tie breakers. Would Dame have still made the All NBA 1st team? Would Kyrie have been left off.

For such a wide gap (1st team to none) it feels like they're very similar. And if you want to factor in playoffs, I'm not sure Dame was more useful on the floor last year than Kyrie was on the bench.

[Smartacus]

It's an intensely close debate but the eye test crushes the conversation for me.

I think that Damian Lillard is an incredibly productive player that makes perfect use of his athletic gifts to be as productive as humanly possible. He's always been overlooked because he doesn't have the same aesthetically pleasing game that someone like Curry does and deserved every accolade he's received including last season's All NBA first team over Kyrie.

His moves are efficient and honed. There was a story that he basically became a great payer because a college coach broke down his game and realized that all he needed was to play Pick and Roll. Lillard absorbed the concepts of P and R and incorporated them into his game and became the player he is today.

Lillard is a machine.

I think that Kyrie Irving is a force on this Earth. He possesses a mind, body, and spirit that makes him capable of the greatest feats in the tightest moments. He is capable of everything that Lillard is and more but also gets more bored and disillusioned with the grind of an 82 game season than Lillard does.

Irving's moves are more expressive and flowing. He's not content to torture teams with the same looks over and over again, he needs to challenge himself to incorporate creative finishes, and personal challenges into his game like Kobe, Bird, and Jordan used to do. I think he's less concerned about superficial accolades and judges his value to the game based on his personal code.

Kyrie is an artist.

I have Kyrie as the superior player in my personal tier list.

[JBcat]

It's an intensely close debate but the eye test crushes the conversation for me.

I think that Damian Lillard is an incredibly productive player that makes perfect use of his athletic gifts to be as productive as humanly possible. He's always been overlooked because he doesn't have the same aesthetically pleasing game that someone like Curry does and deserved every accolade he's received including last season's All NBA first team over Kyrie.

His moves are efficient and honed. There was a story that he basically became a great payer because a college coach broke down his game and realized that all he needed was to play Pick and Roll. Lillard absorbed the concepts of P and R and incorporated them into his game and became the player he is today.

Lillard is a machine.

I think that Kyrie Irving is a force on this Earth. He possesses a mind, body, and spirit that makes him capable of the greatest feats in the tightest moments. He is capable of everything that Lillard is and more but also gets more bored and disillusioned with the grind of an 82 game season than Lillard does.

Irving's moves are more expressive and flowing. He's not content to torture teams with the same looks over and over again, he needs to challenge himself to incorporate creative finishes, and personal challenges into his game like Kobe, Bird, and Jordan used to do. I think he's less concerned about superficial accolades and judges his value to the game based on his personal code.

Kyrie is an artist.

I have Kyrie as the superior player in my personal tier list.

TP for this post.

Just to add Irving is 2 years younger than Lilliard which isn’t a huge difference, but in theory should have a longer prime going forward as long as his health checks out.

[indeedproceed]

A video breaking down Kyrie vs. Dame. It takes the position that Kyrie is more popular but actually the two are very close and concludes that it's impossible to say who is the better player. I agree with that, although I am very happy with Kyrie.

This is I think the most truth.

[johnnygreen]

I watched the video and it was pretty interesting. Although, it gave me the impression that the goal of the video was to convince everyone that Lillard was just as good as Kyrie. I did not like the reasoning for giving Lillard the outside shooting argument. They basically gave it to Lillard because he has hit around 400 more threes and in one year less of time. They’re not taking into account that he has also taken over 1,000 more threes and is Portland’s primary scorer. If you look at the shooting percentages, then Kyrie would have received the outside shooting check mark.

They also showed a stat of Lillard being named the most clutch by his peers. That may be true, but if I had the option, I would choose Kyrie. Is this the same clutch ”award” as the one Kobe had? If I recall, Kobe’s shooting percentage in clutch moments was one of the worst in the league in those situations.

I really like Damian Lillard, and it looks like he has worked really hard to get to this point. Not only does he have an all-around game, but he is also very durable. I feel like there is something missing when I see him play. It may just be a lack of trust for his teammates. This is something that seems to magnify in the playoffs.

If given the opportunity, I would choose Kyrie. I know he has worked extremely hard on his game (just like Lillard), but he is so talented that he actually makes it look easy. If Kyrie was asked to be the primary scorer like Lillard, I honestly think the numbers would strongly favor Kyrie. I also do believe Kyrie trusts his teammates and constantly makes an effort to praise their hard work and put them in positions to make those big shots.

[Sophomore]

It's an intensely close debate but the eye test crushes the conversation for me.

I think that Damian Lillard is an incredibly productive player that makes perfect use of his athletic gifts to be as productive as humanly possible. He's always been overlooked because he doesn't have the same aesthetically pleasing game that someone like Curry does and deserved every accolade he's received including last season's All NBA first team over Kyrie.

His moves are efficient and honed. There was a story that he basically became a great payer because a college coach broke down his game and realized that all he needed was to play Pick and Roll. Lillard absorbed the concepts of P and R and incorporated them into his game and became the player he is today.

Lillard is a machine.

I think that Kyrie Irving is a force on this Earth. He possesses a mind, body, and spirit that makes him capable of the greatest feats in the tightest moments. He is capable of everything that Lillard is and more but also gets more bored and disillusioned with the grind of an 82 game season than Lillard does.

Irving's moves are more expressive and flowing. He's not content to torture teams with the same looks over and over again, he needs to challenge himself to incorporate creative finishes, and personal challenges into his game like Kobe, Bird, and Jordan used to do. I think he's less concerned about superficial accolades and judges his value to the game based on his personal code.

Kyrie is an artist.

I have Kyrie as the superior player in my personal tier list.

TP

[Moranis]

I watched the video and it was pretty interesting. Although, it gave me the impression that the goal of the video was to convince everyone that Lillard was just as good as Kyrie. I did not like the reasoning for giving Lillard the outside shooting argument. They basically gave it to Lillard because he has hit around 400 more threes and in one year less of time. They’re not taking into account that he has also taken over 1,000 more threes and is Portland’s primary scorer. If you look at the shooting percentages, then Kyrie would have received the outside shooting check mark.

They also showed a stat of Lillard being named the most clutch by his peers. That may be true, but if I had the option, I would choose Kyrie. Is this the same clutch ”award” as the one Kobe had? If I recall, Kobe’s shooting percentage in clutch moments was one of the worst in the league in those situations.

I really like Damian Lillard, and it looks like he has worked really hard to get to this point. Not only does he have an all-around game, but he is also very durable. I feel like there is something missing when I see him play. It may just be a lack of trust for his teammates. This is something that seems to magnify in the playoffs.

If given the opportunity, I would choose Kyrie. I know he has worked extremely hard on his game (just like Lillard), but he is so talented that he actually makes it look easy. If Kyrie was asked to be the primary scorer like Lillard, I honestly think the numbers would strongly favor Kyrie. I also do believe Kyrie trusts his teammates and constantly makes an effort to praise their hard work and put them in positions to make those big shots.

Here are the actual crunch time stats. 

http://www.nbaminer.com/clutch-time-stats/

For overall FG%, Irving was 47.5%, Lillard was 47.9% last year.  However, from 3, Irving was 26.5% while Lillard was 38.5% (Lillard was actually better in clutch time than overall, Irving was significantly worse.  Irving was also worse from the foul line in clutch time and again Lillard was slightly better).  FG% in the last minute, Irving 44.8% and Lillard 45.8%.  Irving was assisted on a much larger % of clutch time shots.  Lillard shoots from further away than Irving does on those shots as well.

At the end of the day, the stats very much support the notion that Lillard was a better clutch time player than Irving was. 

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Continue the shade-throwing. The narrative will hopefully die after this season.

If you compared Isaiah Thomas' stats during his two years in Boston to Damian Lillard stats those years, you find that they are comparable players too, but most everyone agrees that Lillard is the better player. Something similar is going on here.

Lillard is a special player. I don't mean to disparage him. It's just that both efficiency stats and the eye test tilt toward Irving. Combine that with Irving's NBA championship pedigree and reputation around the league, and regardless of this little stat here or there, you know who the better player is.

When I watch Lillard play, I always get the sense he shoots too much. I always think, "Man, he has a long leash." There is a narrative that the Blazers might be better if they ran through McCullom more.

When I watch Irving play, I always think, "He could score every time. Why does he keep passing it off?" Even if he takes one too many dribbles sometimes, I wish he jacked up 30 shots instead of 15.

That's the eye test.

[Moranis]

Championship pedigree?  Irving has never played in a single playoff game where he wasn't on the floor with Lebron James.  The Cavs were awful before Lebron came back, were in the Finals again after he was gone, and the Celtics were basically the same level of team without Irving playing.  And sure, Irving hit the biggest shot in Cavs history, but he also had nearly as many awful games in the 3 series against the Warriors as he did great games.  Irving gets elevated to levels he shouldn't.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Championship pedigree?  Irving has never played in a single playoff game where he wasn't on the floor with Lebron James.  The Cavs were awful before Lebron came back, were in the Finals again after he was gone, and the Celtics were basically the same level of team without Irving playing.  And sure, Irving hit the biggest shot in Cavs history, but he also had nearly as many awful games in the 3 series against the Warriors as he did great games.  Irving gets elevated to levels he shouldn't.

[Moranis]

Championship pedigree?  Irving has never played in a single playoff game where he wasn't on the floor with Lebron James.  The Cavs were awful before Lebron came back, were in the Finals again after he was gone, and the Celtics were basically the same level of team without Irving playing.  And sure, Irving hit the biggest shot in Cavs history, but he also had nearly as many awful games in the 3 series against the Warriors as he did great games.  Irving gets elevated to levels he shouldn't.

What exactly do you disagree with?  The facts or just my final sentence?

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Championship pedigree?  Irving has never played in a single playoff game where he wasn't on the floor with Lebron James.  The Cavs were awful before Lebron came back, were in the Finals again after he was gone, and the Celtics were basically the same level of team without Irving playing.  And sure, Irving hit the biggest shot in Cavs history, but he also had nearly as many awful games in the 3 series against the Warriors as he did great games.  Irving gets elevated to levels he shouldn't.

What exactly do you disagree with?  The facts or just my final sentence?

I mean, typically our debates lead no where, which is what is disagreeable.

Probably the most frustrating thing is that you pulled one sentence out of my entire response to pick at.

I get that Irving isn't deserving of all, or even most, of the credit for the Cavs championship. In fairness, we would say Klay Thompson has a championship pedigree even though he has never been the best, or most dominate, or most important player on the Warriors. I wouldn't really count Javale McGee as a player with championship pedigree, but when you are the second or third best player on a championship team, you have championship pedigree.

I hated the Cavs so much back then that I was cheering for the Warriors. I remember the oppressive feeling of the Irving vs. Curry matchup. Even if Curry played decently, I remember feeling like Irving bullied him during most of the matchup. Defensively, Irving blocked his shots and poked the ball away at key times. He forced Curry into giving the ball up. That matchup is one of the reasons I think Irving's defensive deficiencies are way overblown.

Irving was my least favorite player in that series (and I really don't like James) because he threatened the team I was cheering for most. That was way before he was a Celtic, but I remember the feeling.

No one ever worries if Lillard will outplay Curry on both ends of the court. In fact, Lillard is basically Curry-lite. He is the imitation brand. The knock-off. He is the little brother with the chip on his shoulder, even though the older brother always has his way in games.

Irving legitimately challenges (and even outplays) the two-time MVP. That matters.

[GreenEnvy]

I watched the video and it was pretty interesting. Although, it gave me the impression that the goal of the video was to convince everyone that Lillard was just as good as Kyrie. I did not like the reasoning for giving Lillard the outside shooting argument. They basically gave it to Lillard because he has hit around 400 more threes and in one year less of time. They’re not taking into account that he has also taken over 1,000 more threes and is Portland’s primary scorer. If you look at the shooting percentages, then Kyrie would have received the outside shooting check mark.

They also showed a stat of Lillard being named the most clutch by his peers. That may be true, but if I had the option, I would choose Kyrie. Is this the same clutch ”award” as the one Kobe had? If I recall, Kobe’s shooting percentage in clutch moments was one of the worst in the league in those situations.

I really like Damian Lillard, and it looks like he has worked really hard to get to this point. Not only does he have an all-around game, but he is also very durable. I feel like there is something missing when I see him play. It may just be a lack of trust for his teammates. This is something that seems to magnify in the playoffs.

If given the opportunity, I would choose Kyrie. I know he has worked extremely hard on his game (just like Lillard), but he is so talented that he actually makes it look easy. If Kyrie was asked to be the primary scorer like Lillard, I honestly think the numbers would strongly favor Kyrie. I also do believe Kyrie trusts his teammates and constantly makes an effort to praise their hard work and put them in positions to make those big shots.

Here are the actual crunch time stats. 

http://www.nbaminer.com/clutch-time-stats/

For overall FG%, Irving was 47.5%, Lillard was 47.9% last year.  However, from 3, Irving was 26.5% while Lillard was 38.5% (Lillard was actually better in clutch time than overall, Irving was significantly worse.  Irving was also worse from the foul line in clutch time and again Lillard was slightly better).  FG% in the last minute, Irving 44.8% and Lillard 45.8%.  Irving was assisted on a much larger % of clutch time shots.  Lillard shoots from further away than Irving does on those shots as well.

At the end of the day, the stats very much support the notion that Lillard was a better clutch time player than Irving was.

Irving .449 FG% for his career in the clutch, Lillard .401
Lillard .324 3P% career, Irving .307
Lillard .879 FT% career, Irving .874

They are nearly identical 3P and FT shooters, while Kyrie is noticeably better overall.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Dame is hardwood fool's gold.  He is skilled enough to get a big contract, but it's for his charisma as much as anything.  His overall chunk of the team's cap will always be a detriment to winning. 

[Big333223]

Championship pedigree?  Irving has never played in a single playoff game where he wasn't on the floor with Lebron James.  The Cavs were awful before Lebron came back, were in the Finals again after he was gone, and the Celtics were basically the same level of team without Irving playing.  And sure, Irving hit the biggest shot in Cavs history, but he also had nearly as many awful games in the 3 series against the Warriors as he did great games.  Irving gets elevated to levels he shouldn't.

This isn't true. I have no idea what you're talking about.