Author Topic: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida  (Read 5738 times)

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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2018, 02:07:02 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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The shove was unnecessary but not criminal I don't think.

You may want to rethink that.
how is the shove not self defense under the stand your ground law?

The scenario that I play out is say Michael Drejka had called the police and they respond and he tells them "arrest this man, he shoved me", do you really think the police would arrest him once they understood that Drejka was "road raging" on the man's wife/girlfriend?

First, that's not road rage. It's also hard to suggest she was in fear of Drejka when she exited a secure place (vehicle) in order to confront him.

Yes, McGlockton would get arrested assuming one of 3 things occur:
1. An independent witness corroborates Drejka's account
2. McGlockton admits he pushed Drejka
3. CCTV is reviewed and captures the incident



Based on what I see and heard I surmise the following:

* Drejka had a history of confronting people parked in disabled spaces.
* McGlockton was parked illegally
* Drejka approached the GF (no audio available), but the female exited the vehicle to confront him. This makes it likely that she was not in fear.
* McGlockton observes the argument and pushes Drejka to the ground
* McGlockton, as he takes a step forward, seems to be fiddling with his clothing. This at the very least could make Drejka believe that McGlockton was armed.
* Drejka shoots McGlockton as he took a step back, but did he see him step back. This part is important because if Drejka states that he was pushed to the ground, believed the individual was reaching for a weapon, and he was in fear for life, then the argument could be made that based on his vantage point, fearfulness, and/or him focusing on his front sights, he never observed McGlockton take a step back.

The only way the SAO files charges is due to public pressure, but it's not a winnable case based on the letter of the law.
Of course it is a winnable case even under the letter of the law.

If you think it's a winnable case then you don't have a good grasp of case law. There is doubt in this case, just look at some varying opinions in this very thread, and with doubt comes no conviction.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2018, 02:07:58 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

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I'm generally in favor of 'stand your ground' laws.  I think people have a right to defend themselves, even if the use of deadly force is required.  I'm well known around the blog as a strong guns rights advocate.

But from everything I've seen about this, there was no justification here.  This was simply a man with a way too quick trigger finger who was probably just looking for the first excuse he could find to gun someone down.  I find this appalling, quite honestly.

Stand your ground laws don't mean you get to shoot someone because they shoved you.  They're not supposed to mean that, anyways.

I couldn't agree more. Protecting yourself and your love ones from danger is one thing but shooting someone over a push is just murder. Good luck Floridians!

I would not want to accidentally bump into someone in the shoulder while walking, or at least in Florida. Personal space, make space!

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2018, 02:21:36 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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The shove was unnecessary but not criminal I don't think.

You may want to rethink that.
how is the shove not self defense under the stand your ground law?

Because no reasonable person would think there was an imminent fear of serious bodily injury just because somebody is arguing with their wife. 

The victim had no right to attack the shooter. The shooter shouldn’t have a right to shoot a non-threatening assailant out of revenge.

That shove was felony assault. It marked the second time a crime had been committed (first was parking in a handicapped spot).

I love how people can declare that the man was not threatened from the "privilege" (finally got to use that word) of behind their computer. He was pushed so hard that he fell to the ground and rolled over. Who knows if he hit his head on the ground? Then the assailant (I refuse to call him the victim) took additional steps forward and pulled up his pants (fighting gesture). Sorry, I don't see how you guys can claim for him that he wasn't threatened.

Quote
Every gun training protocol teaches to shoot. Put as many shots on target as you can. Once the assault has started it’s either you or him.

Maybe we should have better gun training protocol then.
Ow
You would be singing a different tune if he didn’t have a gun and died from blunt force trauma. He’s lucky that he was armed and he acted 100% correct. You don’t screw around when you’re an old man on the ground. Did you want him to take a beating first like Zimmerman?

Drawing the gun isn’t the problem. Shooting the guy when he was in a non-threatening posture was..

And, is 47 “old man” status now?

Oh lord I hope not.  If nothing else, Erik, please acknowledge agreement that 47 isn’t old.


And here’s something to disagree with: if you are carrying, you have an added obligation to avoid either initiating or escalating unnecessary confrontations (i,e., confrontations that aren’t necessitated by a safety issue). It seems that if gun-carriers are going to be self-deputized, they should be trained in, and primarily focused on, mitigating or avoiding confrontation or escalation. My guess is (being not privy to details) that the shooter could have opted not to engage in “policing” the parked car violator — or perhaps could calmly just point out to the operator that the car is parked illegally and walk away.   

It is possible that he is emboldened to confront because he carries — and if so... sorry, but I think that’s wrong and should be considered in the adjudication of this type of case.

47 years old isn't "old" but definitely not prime fighting age. Especially not against a mid 20 year old.

I would say that *everyone* should not be looking for confrontations. Not just concealed carry holders. This guy is definitely not a model citizen either. I meant that he was 100% justified in all of his actions AFTER the shove. Before, he was clearly a jerk.

Either way, I am responsible for my actions. Someone can talk all day to me. As long as they do not put their hands on me, I will not put my hands on them. Had he not fought, he would have lived. You know how many times people have said really rude things to me in public? I just ignore them and continue walking because I have a wife and a kid and I'm too smart to be fist fighting. The moment I escalate words into violence, I have put my family in jeopardy. I will never do it unless I have no other choice.

Sure sounds like you are agreeing that a responsible citizen does not unnecessarily engage in confrontations (remember too, there was a small child in the car).  I am adding that if have a hidden gun that I am trained to use when in a heated exchange that it may be even more important to responsibly avoid unnecessary confrontation or potential escalation.  Again, “Miss, you are parked in a handicapped space” and walk away is just about as far as that should ever go. And if I were carrying, probably best to keep quiet unless safety is at risk.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2018, 02:50:23 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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If the NRA had its way right after the guy shot the husband because he felt threatened, the wife should have shot the original shooter with her concealed weapon because she felt threatened at which point the manager of the store, after coming out of the store to see what was happening could have shot the wife with his concealed weapon because he felt threatened and then the cop that arrives would shoot the store manager because he felt threatened after watching the store manger kill the wife.

4 deaths....no laws broken. Original issue all settled. Nothing to see here.

Ahhhhh.....the wild, wild west.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2018, 02:55:25 PM »

Online Moranis

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The shove was unnecessary but not criminal I don't think.

You may want to rethink that.
how is the shove not self defense under the stand your ground law?

The scenario that I play out is say Michael Drejka had called the police and they respond and he tells them "arrest this man, he shoved me", do you really think the police would arrest him once they understood that Drejka was "road raging" on the man's wife/girlfriend?

First, that's not road rage. It's also hard to suggest she was in fear of Drejka when she exited a secure place (vehicle) in order to confront him.

Yes, McGlockton would get arrested assuming one of 3 things occur:
1. An independent witness corroborates Drejka's account
2. McGlockton admits he pushed Drejka
3. CCTV is reviewed and captures the incident



Based on what I see and heard I surmise the following:

* Drejka had a history of confronting people parked in disabled spaces.
* McGlockton was parked illegally
* Drejka approached the GF (no audio available), but the female exited the vehicle to confront him. This makes it likely that she was not in fear.
* McGlockton observes the argument and pushes Drejka to the ground
* McGlockton, as he takes a step forward, seems to be fiddling with his clothing. This at the very least could make Drejka believe that McGlockton was armed.
* Drejka shoots McGlockton as he took a step back, but did he see him step back. This part is important because if Drejka states that he was pushed to the ground, believed the individual was reaching for a weapon, and he was in fear for life, then the argument could be made that based on his vantage point, fearfulness, and/or him focusing on his front sights, he never observed McGlockton take a step back.

The only way the SAO files charges is due to public pressure, but it's not a winnable case based on the letter of the law.
Of course it is a winnable case even under the letter of the law.

If you think it's a winnable case then you don't have a good grasp of case law. There is doubt in this case, just look at some varying opinions in this very thread, and with doubt comes no conviction.
This is the relevant provision.

(2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

The facts in this case don't easily or clearly fall within the actual definition in the statute.  As such, it is in fact a winnable case.  It doesn't mean the prosecution would win as guilty people are all the time found not guilty, but he absolutely should be charged with 2nd degree murder.


And for the record, part 1 of that statute absolutely could reasonably be applied to the husband coming to the aid of his wife who was being berated by a stranger in the parking lot.  Here is part 1. 

(1) A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #80 on: July 24, 2018, 03:22:10 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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So ... if the McGlockton car had a gun in it's glove compartment (with appropriate permits), based on this law, the woman would have been under rights to pull it out and start firing shots and Drejka, right?

Certainly after watching her man get shot in the chest.

But arguably before that, if she felt 'threatened' by the strange creep who came up to the car screaming at her?  Couldn't she be "reasonably" justified in feeling threatened for her life?   After all, who knows if such a crazy man might have a gun in his pocket?

Are we building toward a society where everyone should be packing heat and bullets should be just let fly?   What if an innocent bystander gets hit by a stray bullet fired by someone who is "standing their ground"?

When does this madness stop?

The above is all hypothetical, of course.

On the particulars of the case, different commenters seem to argue over whether McGlockton was already stepping back before Drejka pulled out the gun.   But it's very clear that he clearly steps backward before the trigger was pulled.  At that point, I don't think you can legitimately argue that "using or threatening to use (deadly) force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself".   All he had to do was keep the gun pointed at McGlockton and walk away.

But instead he chose to pull that trigger.

If we are going to argue that in the "heat of the moment" he couldn't be expected to recognize that simply holding the gun gave him enough power to control the situation and walk away without firing it, then that's an argument that the creep should never, ever have been allowed to have that gun in the first place.   And probably why the vast, vast majority of folks should never, ever carry a gun.
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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #81 on: July 24, 2018, 03:26:17 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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If the NRA had its way right after the guy shot the husband because he felt threatened, the wife should have shot the original shooter with her concealed weapon because she felt threatened at which point the manager of the store, after coming out of the store to see what was happening could have shot the wife with his concealed weapon because he felt threatened and then the cop that arrives would shoot the store manager because he felt threatened after watching the store manger kill the wife.

4 deaths....no laws broken. Original issue all settled. Nothing to see here.

Ahhhhh.....the wild, wild west.

You forgot about the guy in a house across the street who, upon a stray bullet whizzing into his living room, promptly feels threatened so pulls out a gun and starts firing back into the parking lot at anything that moves.

Come to Florida.  The Sunshine State.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #82 on: July 24, 2018, 04:16:37 PM »

Offline number_n9ne

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Just commenting on Stand Your Ground laws. They're freaking stupid. Why don't we all arm ourselves and just go back in time to the Old West.

"I feel threatened. Time to shoot to kill!" Unreal.
How about commenting on the victim escalating the situation from a verbal conflict to a physical one?

Liberals cannot assign blame to minorities. It’s part of the welcome package section 3: pandering for votes. Instead, when a minority does something wrong, they blame the system or even better “systemic racism” — whatever that means.

OK.  The victim can be blamed for assault by means of a shove, sure.  But such assault and then retreat upon seeing a firearm does not warrant a death sentence.  Is the shove really what is most deserving of discussion here?

The moment you put your hands on someone, you have forfeited your right to life. All the man had to do was collect his family and go into his car like a civil member of society. His machismo cost his family greatly.

I’m curious if they gave her a parking ticket for illegally parking in the handicapped spot.

You must be a hit at parties... You really have that little respect for life? This is an insane statement. Guy's wife is being harassed and he defends her therefore he forfeits his life? I think the actual moral of the story is don't kill people...
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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #83 on: July 24, 2018, 04:19:48 PM »

Online liam

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If the NRA had its way right after the guy shot the husband because he felt threatened, the wife should have shot the original shooter with her concealed weapon because she felt threatened at which point the manager of the store, after coming out of the store to see what was happening could have shot the wife with his concealed weapon because he felt threatened and then the cop that arrives would shoot the store manager because he felt threatened after watching the store manger kill the wife.

4 deaths....no laws broken. Original issue all settled. Nothing to see here.

Ahhhhh.....the wild, wild west.



It'll get there.... :(

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2018, 04:25:50 PM »

Online liam

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Just commenting on Stand Your Ground laws. They're freaking stupid. Why don't we all arm ourselves and just go back in time to the Old West.

"I feel threatened. Time to shoot to kill!" Unreal.
How about commenting on the victim escalating the situation from a verbal conflict to a physical one?

Liberals cannot assign blame to minorities. It’s part of the welcome package section 3: pandering for votes. Instead, when a minority does something wrong, they blame the system or even better “systemic racism” — whatever that means.

OK.  The victim can be blamed for assault by means of a shove, sure.  But such assault and then retreat upon seeing a firearm does not warrant a death sentence.  Is the shove really what is most deserving of discussion here?

The moment you put your hands on someone, you have forfeited your right to life. All the man had to do was collect his family and go into his car like a civil member of society. His machismo cost his family greatly.

I’m curious if they gave her a parking ticket for illegally parking in the handicapped spot.

You must be a hit at parties... You really have that little respect for life? This is an insane statement. Guy's wife is being harassed and he defends her therefore he forfeits his life? I think the actual moral of the story is don't kill people...

What about Police Officers, Fire Fighters, Doctors, and Nurses? They all put there hands on people all the time and sometimes against the peoples will...

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2018, 12:34:45 PM »

Offline heyvik

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It looks like there is a now a case - the shooter is now being arrested on charges of manslaughter -
https://abcnews.go.com/US/shooter-florida-stand-ground-case-charged-manslaughter/story?id=57151343


Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #86 on: August 13, 2018, 12:45:46 PM »

Offline Celtics17

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I live in Missouri where we have the the Missouri Castle law which is similar to this situation. If you feel threatened for your life or serious bodily injury you are justified in using lethal force. It's really a difficult thing to say if someone feels threatened for his/her life. What one person does not interpret as threatening another person may.

There was a road rage incident in St. Louis where a 65 year old grandfather was out with his grandson and switched lanes and cut off a motorcyclist who then came up to the older man, who pulled over, and the motorcyclist punched the older man through his open car window. The older man then shot, and I believe killed the younger man on the bike. The question here though is at what point was the younger man going to stop? Would he have pulled the man out of the car and beaten him to death?

It really is a tough call on when you can or should be able to use deadly force and it's even a tougher call if you are the one having to make that choice and on a moments notice. I guess the safest thing is to never approach someone else with intentions of being aggressive or hostile because you just never know.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #87 on: August 13, 2018, 01:28:08 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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It really is a tough call on when you can or should be able to use deadly force and it's even a tougher call if you are the one having to make that choice and on a moments notice. I guess the safest thing is to never approach someone else with intentions of being aggressive or hostile because you just never know.

My faith is restored in FL that this guy is being charged with murder (albeit manslaughter).

In terms of the tough call you need to make when you have a gun, I see that as part of the responsibility that you assume when you choose to carry a gun and then fire it at someone.  If you decide to kill someone, you should be subject scrutiny.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #88 on: August 13, 2018, 02:51:39 PM »

Offline stes

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I live in Missouri where we have the the Missouri Castle law which is similar to this situation. If you feel threatened for your life or serious bodily injury you are justified in using lethal force. It's really a difficult thing to say if someone feels threatened for his/her life. What one person does not interpret as threatening another person may.

There was a road rage incident in St. Louis where a 65 year old grandfather was out with his grandson and switched lanes and cut off a motorcyclist who then came up to the older man, who pulled over, and the motorcyclist punched the older man through his open car window. The older man then shot, and I believe killed the younger man on the bike. The question here though is at what point was the younger man going to stop? Would he have pulled the man out of the car and beaten him to death?

It really is a tough call on when you can or should be able to use deadly force and it's even a tougher call if you are the one having to make that choice and on a moments notice. I guess the safest thing is to never approach someone else with intentions of being aggressive or hostile because you just never know.

In case the biker had a gun and shot the grandpa, claiming his life was threatened by the lane switching, would he be protected by the same rule? I have to say it seems to be kind of horrifying to live in a country, where you should expect everybody to have a gun and a set of rules that can make people use those guns without consequences. I guess it’s kind of like living in a country next to - let’s say - Russia, but on a more day-to-day basis rather then a state affair one.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #89 on: August 13, 2018, 03:51:40 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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It looks like there is a now a case - the shooter is now being arrested on charges of manslaughter -
https://abcnews.go.com/US/shooter-florida-stand-ground-case-charged-manslaughter/story?id=57151343



Thankfully at least one official in Florida has a modicum of common sense.

There was simply no justification for this shooting. Drejka's life was never in jeopardy, and there was no ground to stand. Shooting, and killing, a retreating person is murder, plain and simple.

 

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