Author Topic: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)  (Read 104567 times)

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Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1725 on: April 15, 2019, 07:14:25 PM »

Offline Chris22

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Wilt once blocked 25 shots in one game.
Wilt is also perhaps the most freakish athlete in sporting history
Playing against, on average, the least athletic players in league history, on average.

Yea, Bill Russell and Kareem were pretty unathletic.

Were those two indicative of the average NBA player at that time?

See for yourself....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo&t=411s

I just wrote a whole post about that but timed out and lost it. I never saw him or Russell play, but would never have the audacity to take anything away from those guys. Just don't understand young people's need to do that because I never did that.  I watched Jabbar in his later years and as slow as he was, he was just as unstoppable left or right, and anywhere from 18 feet in. It's so obvious those guys would be even MORE dominant in their primes today.

I watched Ali in his later years where he struggled against good fighters but still won.  Then I saw clips of him in late 60's before the vietnam thing, and he was faster than Jones and Leonard while being a heavyweight with his intelligence on top of that.

They even forget how unstoppable Shaq was, with 2 and 3 guys grabbing him and he still brings them up with him and dunks. There was nothing anyone could do with him once he got the ball underneath and as big as he was, he lightning quick and even had handle. His hands were just too huge to shoot good.  Like trying to shoot a tennis ball.

But anyway, I just don't understand why these guys feel no one could do anything before they were born and have to make up stuff like "modern nba".  Just the most unintelligent position i've ever seen people take.
Who is trying to take away anything from Russell, Walt or Kareem. They blocked a lot of shots because they played against players, that were, on average, nowhere near as athletic as they were. I am not talking about Elgin Baylor, Jerry West or John Havlicek whose athleticism spans decades. I am talking about the vast majority of players in that time.

Just about every team had one or two huge unathletic goons as massive physicality in the paint and fights were common. Most players were still very one handed in their ability to dribble. Players weren't into weight training and didn't stay in NBA shape all year. It was a different time and the average player wasn't even as athletic as the current average Division 1 NCAA team.

And if you mix the majority of players not being as athletic as Russell and Will with the dominating physical presence Russ and Will were and the simplified game that tried to force things inside, then you get ridiculous block and rebound numbers that Will and Bill got.

It's not their fault that the average NBA player wasn't nearly as athletic as they were and it's not disrespect to Bill and Will to say so.

Nick, i'm not even that old and I don't understand this post. I even use to think that about players like Bob cousey, who had cheap sneakers out when I was a kid, and because of that, I thought he stunk because of the jokes about his shoes....UNTIL I WATCHED THE MAN. I didn't even see the Doc play one game in the ABA either, which was his best years. I can safely say there's not one player in this league today that is better than him just from his years in Philly.  You can argue Lebron...but i'm not buying.

And what yall are doing is saying in the 70's players stunk. You gotta be kidding me, man.  I won't even start naming players because I would be here all day, not to mention will forget alot because of my age then.
 
There's always youtube I guess, if some are clear enough to actually watch.

But if most of you guys are 20's and 30's...i'm sorry but you really don't know what you're saying, and if you didn't watch a season back then to see the little nuances of their ability...how on earth can you make that kinda statement?

That's like me trying to tell you about society in England or something.

And TODAY there are like 7 unathletic goons sitting on the bench of every team in this league.

That is no gauge at all.

Do you realize a relatively unassuming player like Bobby Jones in Philly was actually better than Hayward?

Because he sure was and was seen as an afterthought.

Olynik would have never gotten off the bench back then. I'm dead serious.
I'm 54. Not 20 something. I grew up on 70's basketball. And I am mostly talking 60's and early 70's NBA basketball. And again, I am not talking about the most athletic of the players. I am talking the average player.

Take for instance 1969-70. I am not talking about Kareem, Elvin Hayes, Jerry West, Unseld, Reed, or the top athletes of the time. But all it takes is a small move down the leaderboards of that era to see ridiculously unathletic players getting big minutes. Take a look:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1970_totals.html#totals_stats::mp

You can do the same thing every year in the 60's. The average NBA player was not as athletic or skilled as today's average NBA player. That, and the simple game of that time where the entire game plan was get it into the paint, is what led to the ridiculous blocks Russell and Wilt put up in that era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo&t=411s
Thank you for proving my point. Watch the game. Very slow guys with little lift trying to take it inside exclusively against a transcendent athlete.

Watch the dribbling. Players looking down at the ball to dribble. Dominant hand exclusive. That is so easy to guard.

Watch the players on the floor that get left in the dust because they are so slow.

Outside shooting was almost always a set shot and easy to time to block.

Wilt's standing reach was five inches higher than Shaq's and Wilt jumped higher.

Apology accepted, Captain Needa.

Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1726 on: April 15, 2019, 07:52:07 PM »

Online hwangjini_1

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wilt would have dominated basketball in any era i believe.

once, he averaged 50 points a game and just under 27 rebounds a game...for the season.  :o

of the 112 games they tracked of his blocked shots, he averaged 8.8 a game. Russell, if you are interested averaged 8.1 for those games of which we have records.

https://2kmtcentral.com/forums/thread/2435/there-are-112-nba-games-where-shot-block-data-of-wilt-chamberlain-exists-his-average-for-those-112-88-blocks-per-game

this doesnt mean the rest of the league was super athletic, but these two guys sure were.
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Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1727 on: April 15, 2019, 08:08:23 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Wilt once blocked 25 shots in one game.
Wilt is also perhaps the most freakish athlete in sporting history
Playing against, on average, the least athletic players in league history, on average.

Yea, Bill Russell and Kareem were pretty unathletic.

Were those two indicative of the average NBA player at that time?

See for yourself....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo&t=411s

I just wrote a whole post about that but timed out and lost it. I never saw him or Russell play, but would never have the audacity to take anything away from those guys. Just don't understand young people's need to do that because I never did that.  I watched Jabbar in his later years and as slow as he was, he was just as unstoppable left or right, and anywhere from 18 feet in. It's so obvious those guys would be even MORE dominant in their primes today.

I watched Ali in his later years where he struggled against good fighters but still won.  Then I saw clips of him in late 60's before the vietnam thing, and he was faster than Jones and Leonard while being a heavyweight with his intelligence on top of that.

They even forget how unstoppable Shaq was, with 2 and 3 guys grabbing him and he still brings them up with him and dunks. There was nothing anyone could do with him once he got the ball underneath and as big as he was, he lightning quick and even had handle. His hands were just too huge to shoot good.  Like trying to shoot a tennis ball.

But anyway, I just don't understand why these guys feel no one could do anything before they were born and have to make up stuff like "modern nba".  Just the most unintelligent position i've ever seen people take.
Who is trying to take away anything from Russell, Walt or Kareem. They blocked a lot of shots because they played against players, that were, on average, nowhere near as athletic as they were. I am not talking about Elgin Baylor, Jerry West or John Havlicek whose athleticism spans decades. I am talking about the vast majority of players in that time.

Just about every team had one or two huge unathletic goons as massive physicality in the paint and fights were common. Most players were still very one handed in their ability to dribble. Players weren't into weight training and didn't stay in NBA shape all year. It was a different time and the average player wasn't even as athletic as the current average Division 1 NCAA team.

And if you mix the majority of players not being as athletic as Russell and Will with the dominating physical presence Russ and Will were and the simplified game that tried to force things inside, then you get ridiculous block and rebound numbers that Will and Bill got.

It's not their fault that the average NBA player wasn't nearly as athletic as they were and it's not disrespect to Bill and Will to say so.

Nick, i'm not even that old and I don't understand this post. I even use to think that about players like Bob cousey, who had cheap sneakers out when I was a kid, and because of that, I thought he stunk because of the jokes about his shoes....UNTIL I WATCHED THE MAN. I didn't even see the Doc play one game in the ABA either, which was his best years. I can safely say there's not one player in this league today that is better than him just from his years in Philly.  You can argue Lebron...but i'm not buying.

And what yall are doing is saying in the 70's players stunk. You gotta be kidding me, man.  I won't even start naming players because I would be here all day, not to mention will forget alot because of my age then.
 
There's always youtube I guess, if some are clear enough to actually watch.

But if most of you guys are 20's and 30's...i'm sorry but you really don't know what you're saying, and if you didn't watch a season back then to see the little nuances of their ability...how on earth can you make that kinda statement?

That's like me trying to tell you about society in England or something.

And TODAY there are like 7 unathletic goons sitting on the bench of every team in this league.

That is no gauge at all.

Do you realize a relatively unassuming player like Bobby Jones in Philly was actually better than Hayward?

Because he sure was and was seen as an afterthought.

Olynik would have never gotten off the bench back then. I'm dead serious.
I'm 54. Not 20 something. I grew up on 70's basketball. And I am mostly talking 60's and early 70's NBA basketball. And again, I am not talking about the most athletic of the players. I am talking the average player.

Take for instance 1969-70. I am not talking about Kareem, Elvin Hayes, Jerry West, Unseld, Reed, or the top athletes of the time. But all it takes is a small move down the leaderboards of that era to see ridiculously unathletic players getting big minutes. Take a look:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1970_totals.html#totals_stats::mp

You can do the same thing every year in the 60's. The average NBA player was not as athletic or skilled as today's average NBA player. That, and the simple game of that time where the entire game plan was get it into the paint, is what led to the ridiculous blocks Russell and Wilt put up in that era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo&t=411s
Thank you for proving my point. Watch the game. Very slow guys with little lift trying to take it inside exclusively against a transcendent athlete.

Watch the dribbling. Players looking down at the ball to dribble. Dominant hand exclusive. That is so easy to guard.

Watch the players on the floor that get left in the dust because they are so slow.

Outside shooting was almost always a set shot and easy to time to block.

Wilt's standing reach was five inches higher than Shaq's and Wilt jumped higher.

Apology accepted, Captain Needa.
I donít know how youíre continuing to not comprehend that Nick is talking about the average players, not the dominant stars who transcend eras

Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1728 on: April 15, 2019, 08:30:38 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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wilt would have dominated basketball in any era i believe.

once, he averaged 50 points a game and just under 27 rebounds a game...for the season.  :o

of the 112 games they tracked of his blocked shots, he averaged 8.8 a game. Russell, if you are interested averaged 8.1 for those games of which we have records.

https://2kmtcentral.com/forums/thread/2435/there-are-112-nba-games-where-shot-block-data-of-wilt-chamberlain-exists-his-average-for-those-112-88-blocks-per-game

this doesnt mean the rest of the league was super athletic, but these two guys sure were.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Wilt and Russell were both ridiculous athletes. Just look at their high jump numbers. And when you consider that that was without modern equipment, nutrition, and training techniques... holy crap

I can't believe that anyone is arguing that players 40-50 years ago were as athletic as today, though. The increase in popularity leading to more athletic players (from more parts of the world) joining AND being able to make it their full time job, improved nutrition, and better training techniques have led to a measurable increase in athleticism among professional athletes. That doesn't mean that there weren't super athletes back then, but it does mean that most of the players in the league back then we're less athletic than they are today.
I'm bitter.

Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1729 on: April 15, 2019, 08:32:08 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Wilt once blocked 25 shots in one game.
Wilt is also perhaps the most freakish athlete in sporting history
Playing against, on average, the least athletic players in league history, on average.

Yea, Bill Russell and Kareem were pretty unathletic.

Were those two indicative of the average NBA player at that time?

See for yourself....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo&t=411s

I just wrote a whole post about that but timed out and lost it. I never saw him or Russell play, but would never have the audacity to take anything away from those guys. Just don't understand young people's need to do that because I never did that.  I watched Jabbar in his later years and as slow as he was, he was just as unstoppable left or right, and anywhere from 18 feet in. It's so obvious those guys would be even MORE dominant in their primes today.

I watched Ali in his later years where he struggled against good fighters but still won.  Then I saw clips of him in late 60's before the vietnam thing, and he was faster than Jones and Leonard while being a heavyweight with his intelligence on top of that.

They even forget how unstoppable Shaq was, with 2 and 3 guys grabbing him and he still brings them up with him and dunks. There was nothing anyone could do with him once he got the ball underneath and as big as he was, he lightning quick and even had handle. His hands were just too huge to shoot good.  Like trying to shoot a tennis ball.

But anyway, I just don't understand why these guys feel no one could do anything before they were born and have to make up stuff like "modern nba".  Just the most unintelligent position i've ever seen people take.
Who is trying to take away anything from Russell, Walt or Kareem. They blocked a lot of shots because they played against players, that were, on average, nowhere near as athletic as they were. I am not talking about Elgin Baylor, Jerry West or John Havlicek whose athleticism spans decades. I am talking about the vast majority of players in that time.

Just about every team had one or two huge unathletic goons as massive physicality in the paint and fights were common. Most players were still very one handed in their ability to dribble. Players weren't into weight training and didn't stay in NBA shape all year. It was a different time and the average player wasn't even as athletic as the current average Division 1 NCAA team.

And if you mix the majority of players not being as athletic as Russell and Will with the dominating physical presence Russ and Will were and the simplified game that tried to force things inside, then you get ridiculous block and rebound numbers that Will and Bill got.

It's not their fault that the average NBA player wasn't nearly as athletic as they were and it's not disrespect to Bill and Will to say so.

Nick, i'm not even that old and I don't understand this post. I even use to think that about players like Bob cousey, who had cheap sneakers out when I was a kid, and because of that, I thought he stunk because of the jokes about his shoes....UNTIL I WATCHED THE MAN. I didn't even see the Doc play one game in the ABA either, which was his best years. I can safely say there's not one player in this league today that is better than him just from his years in Philly.  You can argue Lebron...but i'm not buying.

And what yall are doing is saying in the 70's players stunk. You gotta be kidding me, man.  I won't even start naming players because I would be here all day, not to mention will forget alot because of my age then.
 
There's always youtube I guess, if some are clear enough to actually watch.

But if most of you guys are 20's and 30's...i'm sorry but you really don't know what you're saying, and if you didn't watch a season back then to see the little nuances of their ability...how on earth can you make that kinda statement?

That's like me trying to tell you about society in England or something.

And TODAY there are like 7 unathletic goons sitting on the bench of every team in this league.

That is no gauge at all.

Do you realize a relatively unassuming player like Bobby Jones in Philly was actually better than Hayward?

Because he sure was and was seen as an afterthought.

Olynik would have never gotten off the bench back then. I'm dead serious.
I'm 54. Not 20 something. I grew up on 70's basketball. And I am mostly talking 60's and early 70's NBA basketball. And again, I am not talking about the most athletic of the players. I am talking the average player.

Take for instance 1969-70. I am not talking about Kareem, Elvin Hayes, Jerry West, Unseld, Reed, or the top athletes of the time. But all it takes is a small move down the leaderboards of that era to see ridiculously unathletic players getting big minutes. Take a look:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1970_totals.html#totals_stats::mp

You can do the same thing every year in the 60's. The average NBA player was not as athletic or skilled as today's average NBA player. That, and the simple game of that time where the entire game plan was get it into the paint, is what led to the ridiculous blocks Russell and Wilt put up in that era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo&t=411s
Thank you for proving my point. Watch the game. Very slow guys with little lift trying to take it inside exclusively against a transcendent athlete.

Watch the dribbling. Players looking down at the ball to dribble. Dominant hand exclusive. That is so easy to guard.

Watch the players on the floor that get left in the dust because they are so slow.

Outside shooting was almost always a set shot and easy to time to block.

Wilt's standing reach was five inches higher than Shaq's and Wilt jumped higher.

Apology accepted, Captain Needa.
I donít know how youíre continuing to not comprehend that Nick is talking about the average players, not the dominant stars who transcend eras

Willful ignorance.
I'm bitter.

Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1730 on: April 15, 2019, 08:35:10 PM »

Offline Chris22

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Wilt once blocked 25 shots in one game.
Wilt is also perhaps the most freakish athlete in sporting history
Playing against, on average, the least athletic players in league history, on average.

Yea, Bill Russell and Kareem were pretty unathletic.

Were those two indicative of the average NBA player at that time?

See for yourself....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo&t=411s

I just wrote a whole post about that but timed out and lost it. I never saw him or Russell play, but would never have the audacity to take anything away from those guys. Just don't understand young people's need to do that because I never did that.  I watched Jabbar in his later years and as slow as he was, he was just as unstoppable left or right, and anywhere from 18 feet in. It's so obvious those guys would be even MORE dominant in their primes today.

I watched Ali in his later years where he struggled against good fighters but still won.  Then I saw clips of him in late 60's before the vietnam thing, and he was faster than Jones and Leonard while being a heavyweight with his intelligence on top of that.

They even forget how unstoppable Shaq was, with 2 and 3 guys grabbing him and he still brings them up with him and dunks. There was nothing anyone could do with him once he got the ball underneath and as big as he was, he lightning quick and even had handle. His hands were just too huge to shoot good.  Like trying to shoot a tennis ball.

But anyway, I just don't understand why these guys feel no one could do anything before they were born and have to make up stuff like "modern nba".  Just the most unintelligent position i've ever seen people take.
Who is trying to take away anything from Russell, Walt or Kareem. They blocked a lot of shots because they played against players, that were, on average, nowhere near as athletic as they were. I am not talking about Elgin Baylor, Jerry West or John Havlicek whose athleticism spans decades. I am talking about the vast majority of players in that time.

Just about every team had one or two huge unathletic goons as massive physicality in the paint and fights were common. Most players were still very one handed in their ability to dribble. Players weren't into weight training and didn't stay in NBA shape all year. It was a different time and the average player wasn't even as athletic as the current average Division 1 NCAA team.

And if you mix the majority of players not being as athletic as Russell and Will with the dominating physical presence Russ and Will were and the simplified game that tried to force things inside, then you get ridiculous block and rebound numbers that Will and Bill got.

It's not their fault that the average NBA player wasn't nearly as athletic as they were and it's not disrespect to Bill and Will to say so.

Nick, i'm not even that old and I don't understand this post. I even use to think that about players like Bob cousey, who had cheap sneakers out when I was a kid, and because of that, I thought he stunk because of the jokes about his shoes....UNTIL I WATCHED THE MAN. I didn't even see the Doc play one game in the ABA either, which was his best years. I can safely say there's not one player in this league today that is better than him just from his years in Philly.  You can argue Lebron...but i'm not buying.

And what yall are doing is saying in the 70's players stunk. You gotta be kidding me, man.  I won't even start naming players because I would be here all day, not to mention will forget alot because of my age then.
 
There's always youtube I guess, if some are clear enough to actually watch.

But if most of you guys are 20's and 30's...i'm sorry but you really don't know what you're saying, and if you didn't watch a season back then to see the little nuances of their ability...how on earth can you make that kinda statement?

That's like me trying to tell you about society in England or something.

And TODAY there are like 7 unathletic goons sitting on the bench of every team in this league.

That is no gauge at all.

Do you realize a relatively unassuming player like Bobby Jones in Philly was actually better than Hayward?

Because he sure was and was seen as an afterthought.

Olynik would have never gotten off the bench back then. I'm dead serious.
I'm 54. Not 20 something. I grew up on 70's basketball. And I am mostly talking 60's and early 70's NBA basketball. And again, I am not talking about the most athletic of the players. I am talking the average player.

Take for instance 1969-70. I am not talking about Kareem, Elvin Hayes, Jerry West, Unseld, Reed, or the top athletes of the time. But all it takes is a small move down the leaderboards of that era to see ridiculously unathletic players getting big minutes. Take a look:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1970_totals.html#totals_stats::mp

You can do the same thing every year in the 60's. The average NBA player was not as athletic or skilled as today's average NBA player. That, and the simple game of that time where the entire game plan was get it into the paint, is what led to the ridiculous blocks Russell and Wilt put up in that era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo&t=411s
Thank you for proving my point. Watch the game. Very slow guys with little lift trying to take it inside exclusively against a transcendent athlete.

Watch the dribbling. Players looking down at the ball to dribble. Dominant hand exclusive. That is so easy to guard.

Watch the players on the floor that get left in the dust because they are so slow.

Outside shooting was almost always a set shot and easy to time to block.

Wilt's standing reach was five inches higher than Shaq's and Wilt jumped higher.

Apology accepted, Captain Needa.
I donít know how youíre continuing to not comprehend that Nick is talking about the average players, not the dominant stars who transcend eras

I don't know how you are not comprehending that I am talking about dominant stars who transcend eras.

He is saying Wilt was dominant because he played with unathletic players.

I am saying Wilt would be dominant in any era.

Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1731 on: April 15, 2019, 08:39:27 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Wilt once blocked 25 shots in one game.
Wilt is also perhaps the most freakish athlete in sporting history
Playing against, on average, the least athletic players in league history, on average.

Yea, Bill Russell and Kareem were pretty unathletic.

Were those two indicative of the average NBA player at that time?

See for yourself....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo&t=411s

I just wrote a whole post about that but timed out and lost it. I never saw him or Russell play, but would never have the audacity to take anything away from those guys. Just don't understand young people's need to do that because I never did that.  I watched Jabbar in his later years and as slow as he was, he was just as unstoppable left or right, and anywhere from 18 feet in. It's so obvious those guys would be even MORE dominant in their primes today.

I watched Ali in his later years where he struggled against good fighters but still won.  Then I saw clips of him in late 60's before the vietnam thing, and he was faster than Jones and Leonard while being a heavyweight with his intelligence on top of that.

They even forget how unstoppable Shaq was, with 2 and 3 guys grabbing him and he still brings them up with him and dunks. There was nothing anyone could do with him once he got the ball underneath and as big as he was, he lightning quick and even had handle. His hands were just too huge to shoot good.  Like trying to shoot a tennis ball.

But anyway, I just don't understand why these guys feel no one could do anything before they were born and have to make up stuff like "modern nba".  Just the most unintelligent position i've ever seen people take.
Who is trying to take away anything from Russell, Walt or Kareem. They blocked a lot of shots because they played against players, that were, on average, nowhere near as athletic as they were. I am not talking about Elgin Baylor, Jerry West or John Havlicek whose athleticism spans decades. I am talking about the vast majority of players in that time.

Just about every team had one or two huge unathletic goons as massive physicality in the paint and fights were common. Most players were still very one handed in their ability to dribble. Players weren't into weight training and didn't stay in NBA shape all year. It was a different time and the average player wasn't even as athletic as the current average Division 1 NCAA team.

And if you mix the majority of players not being as athletic as Russell and Will with the dominating physical presence Russ and Will were and the simplified game that tried to force things inside, then you get ridiculous block and rebound numbers that Will and Bill got.

It's not their fault that the average NBA player wasn't nearly as athletic as they were and it's not disrespect to Bill and Will to say so.

Nick, i'm not even that old and I don't understand this post. I even use to think that about players like Bob cousey, who had cheap sneakers out when I was a kid, and because of that, I thought he stunk because of the jokes about his shoes....UNTIL I WATCHED THE MAN. I didn't even see the Doc play one game in the ABA either, which was his best years. I can safely say there's not one player in this league today that is better than him just from his years in Philly.  You can argue Lebron...but i'm not buying.

And what yall are doing is saying in the 70's players stunk. You gotta be kidding me, man.  I won't even start naming players because I would be here all day, not to mention will forget alot because of my age then.
 
There's always youtube I guess, if some are clear enough to actually watch.

But if most of you guys are 20's and 30's...i'm sorry but you really don't know what you're saying, and if you didn't watch a season back then to see the little nuances of their ability...how on earth can you make that kinda statement?

That's like me trying to tell you about society in England or something.

And TODAY there are like 7 unathletic goons sitting on the bench of every team in this league.

That is no gauge at all.

Do you realize a relatively unassuming player like Bobby Jones in Philly was actually better than Hayward?

Because he sure was and was seen as an afterthought.

Olynik would have never gotten off the bench back then. I'm dead serious.
I'm 54. Not 20 something. I grew up on 70's basketball. And I am mostly talking 60's and early 70's NBA basketball. And again, I am not talking about the most athletic of the players. I am talking the average player.

Take for instance 1969-70. I am not talking about Kareem, Elvin Hayes, Jerry West, Unseld, Reed, or the top athletes of the time. But all it takes is a small move down the leaderboards of that era to see ridiculously unathletic players getting big minutes. Take a look:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1970_totals.html#totals_stats::mp

You can do the same thing every year in the 60's. The average NBA player was not as athletic or skilled as today's average NBA player. That, and the simple game of that time where the entire game plan was get it into the paint, is what led to the ridiculous blocks Russell and Wilt put up in that era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo&t=411s
Thank you for proving my point. Watch the game. Very slow guys with little lift trying to take it inside exclusively against a transcendent athlete.

Watch the dribbling. Players looking down at the ball to dribble. Dominant hand exclusive. That is so easy to guard.

Watch the players on the floor that get left in the dust because they are so slow.

Outside shooting was almost always a set shot and easy to time to block.

Wilt's standing reach was five inches higher than Shaq's and Wilt jumped higher.

Apology accepted, Captain Needa.
I donít know how youíre continuing to not comprehend that Nick is talking about the average players, not the dominant stars who transcend eras

I don't know how you are not comprehending that I am talking about dominant stars who transcend eras.

He is saying Wilt was dominant because he played with unathletic players.

I am saying Wilt would be dominant in any era.
No, he isn't. He's saying the less athletic nature of the 60's game contributed to Wilt getting 25 blocks, alongside his freakish athleticism, which Nick acknowledged in his first reply to me.

Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1732 on: April 15, 2019, 08:45:15 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Wilt once blocked 25 shots in one game.
Wilt is also perhaps the most freakish athlete in sporting history
Playing against, on average, the least athletic players in league history, on average.

Yea, Bill Russell and Kareem were pretty unathletic.

Were those two indicative of the average NBA player at that time?

See for yourself....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo&t=411s

I just wrote a whole post about that but timed out and lost it. I never saw him or Russell play, but would never have the audacity to take anything away from those guys. Just don't understand young people's need to do that because I never did that.  I watched Jabbar in his later years and as slow as he was, he was just as unstoppable left or right, and anywhere from 18 feet in. It's so obvious those guys would be even MORE dominant in their primes today.

I watched Ali in his later years where he struggled against good fighters but still won.  Then I saw clips of him in late 60's before the vietnam thing, and he was faster than Jones and Leonard while being a heavyweight with his intelligence on top of that.

They even forget how unstoppable Shaq was, with 2 and 3 guys grabbing him and he still brings them up with him and dunks. There was nothing anyone could do with him once he got the ball underneath and as big as he was, he lightning quick and even had handle. His hands were just too huge to shoot good.  Like trying to shoot a tennis ball.

But anyway, I just don't understand why these guys feel no one could do anything before they were born and have to make up stuff like "modern nba".  Just the most unintelligent position i've ever seen people take.
Who is trying to take away anything from Russell, Walt or Kareem. They blocked a lot of shots because they played against players, that were, on average, nowhere near as athletic as they were. I am not talking about Elgin Baylor, Jerry West or John Havlicek whose athleticism spans decades. I am talking about the vast majority of players in that time.

Just about every team had one or two huge unathletic goons as massive physicality in the paint and fights were common. Most players were still very one handed in their ability to dribble. Players weren't into weight training and didn't stay in NBA shape all year. It was a different time and the average player wasn't even as athletic as the current average Division 1 NCAA team.

And if you mix the majority of players not being as athletic as Russell and Will with the dominating physical presence Russ and Will were and the simplified game that tried to force things inside, then you get ridiculous block and rebound numbers that Will and Bill got.

It's not their fault that the average NBA player wasn't nearly as athletic as they were and it's not disrespect to Bill and Will to say so.

Nick, i'm not even that old and I don't understand this post. I even use to think that about players like Bob cousey, who had cheap sneakers out when I was a kid, and because of that, I thought he stunk because of the jokes about his shoes....UNTIL I WATCHED THE MAN. I didn't even see the Doc play one game in the ABA either, which was his best years. I can safely say there's not one player in this league today that is better than him just from his years in Philly.  You can argue Lebron...but i'm not buying.

And what yall are doing is saying in the 70's players stunk. You gotta be kidding me, man.  I won't even start naming players because I would be here all day, not to mention will forget alot because of my age then.
 
There's always youtube I guess, if some are clear enough to actually watch.

But if most of you guys are 20's and 30's...i'm sorry but you really don't know what you're saying, and if you didn't watch a season back then to see the little nuances of their ability...how on earth can you make that kinda statement?

That's like me trying to tell you about society in England or something.

And TODAY there are like 7 unathletic goons sitting on the bench of every team in this league.

That is no gauge at all.

Do you realize a relatively unassuming player like Bobby Jones in Philly was actually better than Hayward?

Because he sure was and was seen as an afterthought.

Olynik would have never gotten off the bench back then. I'm dead serious.

Sure. Most players in today's NBA (Kelly Olynyk included) would have struggled in the 80's and 90s, since the game was much more physical, and players today rely more on finesse and athleticism.

And the same goes for most players in from the 80's and 90's if they played in today's NBA. Most big men would get run off the floor on offense, and unless their post game was good enough to outweigh the outside shooting they would be unable to cover, they wouldn't be able to stay in the game. Or do you think a guy like Tree Rollins would dominate today, since there aren't as many big men as there were in the 70s/80s/90s?
I'm bitter.

Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1733 on: April 15, 2019, 08:45:43 PM »

Offline Chris22

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Wilt once blocked 25 shots in one game.
Wilt is also perhaps the most freakish athlete in sporting history
Playing against, on average, the least athletic players in league history, on average.

Yea, Bill Russell and Kareem were pretty unathletic.

Were those two indicative of the average NBA player at that time?

See for yourself....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo&t=411s

I just wrote a whole post about that but timed out and lost it. I never saw him or Russell play, but would never have the audacity to take anything away from those guys. Just don't understand young people's need to do that because I never did that.  I watched Jabbar in his later years and as slow as he was, he was just as unstoppable left or right, and anywhere from 18 feet in. It's so obvious those guys would be even MORE dominant in their primes today.

I watched Ali in his later years where he struggled against good fighters but still won.  Then I saw clips of him in late 60's before the vietnam thing, and he was faster than Jones and Leonard while being a heavyweight with his intelligence on top of that.

They even forget how unstoppable Shaq was, with 2 and 3 guys grabbing him and he still brings them up with him and dunks. There was nothing anyone could do with him once he got the ball underneath and as big as he was, he lightning quick and even had handle. His hands were just too huge to shoot good.  Like trying to shoot a tennis ball.

But anyway, I just don't understand why these guys feel no one could do anything before they were born and have to make up stuff like "modern nba".  Just the most unintelligent position i've ever seen people take.
Who is trying to take away anything from Russell, Walt or Kareem. They blocked a lot of shots because they played against players, that were, on average, nowhere near as athletic as they were. I am not talking about Elgin Baylor, Jerry West or John Havlicek whose athleticism spans decades. I am talking about the vast majority of players in that time.

Just about every team had one or two huge unathletic goons as massive physicality in the paint and fights were common. Most players were still very one handed in their ability to dribble. Players weren't into weight training and didn't stay in NBA shape all year. It was a different time and the average player wasn't even as athletic as the current average Division 1 NCAA team.

And if you mix the majority of players not being as athletic as Russell and Will with the dominating physical presence Russ and Will were and the simplified game that tried to force things inside, then you get ridiculous block and rebound numbers that Will and Bill got.

It's not their fault that the average NBA player wasn't nearly as athletic as they were and it's not disrespect to Bill and Will to say so.

Nick, i'm not even that old and I don't understand this post. I even use to think that about players like Bob cousey, who had cheap sneakers out when I was a kid, and because of that, I thought he stunk because of the jokes about his shoes....UNTIL I WATCHED THE MAN. I didn't even see the Doc play one game in the ABA either, which was his best years. I can safely say there's not one player in this league today that is better than him just from his years in Philly.  You can argue Lebron...but i'm not buying.

And what yall are doing is saying in the 70's players stunk. You gotta be kidding me, man.  I won't even start naming players because I would be here all day, not to mention will forget alot because of my age then.
 
There's always youtube I guess, if some are clear enough to actually watch.

But if most of you guys are 20's and 30's...i'm sorry but you really don't know what you're saying, and if you didn't watch a season back then to see the little nuances of their ability...how on earth can you make that kinda statement?

That's like me trying to tell you about society in England or something.

And TODAY there are like 7 unathletic goons sitting on the bench of every team in this league.

That is no gauge at all.

Do you realize a relatively unassuming player like Bobby Jones in Philly was actually better than Hayward?

Because he sure was and was seen as an afterthought.

Olynik would have never gotten off the bench back then. I'm dead serious.
I'm 54. Not 20 something. I grew up on 70's basketball. And I am mostly talking 60's and early 70's NBA basketball. And again, I am not talking about the most athletic of the players. I am talking the average player.

Take for instance 1969-70. I am not talking about Kareem, Elvin Hayes, Jerry West, Unseld, Reed, or the top athletes of the time. But all it takes is a small move down the leaderboards of that era to see ridiculously unathletic players getting big minutes. Take a look:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1970_totals.html#totals_stats::mp

You can do the same thing every year in the 60's. The average NBA player was not as athletic or skilled as today's average NBA player. That, and the simple game of that time where the entire game plan was get it into the paint, is what led to the ridiculous blocks Russell and Wilt put up in that era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo&t=411s
Thank you for proving my point. Watch the game. Very slow guys with little lift trying to take it inside exclusively against a transcendent athlete.

Watch the dribbling. Players looking down at the ball to dribble. Dominant hand exclusive. That is so easy to guard.

Watch the players on the floor that get left in the dust because they are so slow.

Outside shooting was almost always a set shot and easy to time to block.

Wilt's standing reach was five inches higher than Shaq's and Wilt jumped higher.

Apology accepted, Captain Needa.
I donít know how youíre continuing to not comprehend that Nick is talking about the average players, not the dominant stars who transcend eras

I don't know how you are not comprehending that I am talking about dominant stars who transcend eras.

He is saying Wilt was dominant because he played with unathletic players.

I am saying Wilt would be dominant in any era.
No, he isn't. He's saying the less athletic nature of the 60's game contributed to Wilt getting 25 blocks, alongside his freakish athleticism, which Nick acknowledged in his first reply to me.

And I am saying Wilt might get 25 blocks today, if not for the three point shot.

Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1734 on: April 16, 2019, 11:38:44 AM »

Offline Triplenickle

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Well my point was I never watched anything from the 60's except clips...but the 70's were full of athletes from top to bottom so I can't imagine the 60's being that different.

I mean come on, Gervin, Mcadoo, Mcginnis, Elvin Hayes, Bernard King, David Thompson, The Doc, Dawkins, Moses Malone, Marcus johnson, Larry Nance, Gus williams Earl the pearl, Wes unseld, Artis gilmore...and these are just a handful of guys at the top of my head. If any of yall say any of them wouldn't be effective today then I don't understand why yall would be basketball fans.

Even Dennis johnson had a 42" vertical when he played for seattle. By the time he got to the Celts, I never saw him dunk one time though. lol

But I mean the Iceman averaged like 36 points a game multiple times. And to put it in perspective both Magic and Bird were playing for their college championship in what...78-79 I believe?

So yall are saying 15 years before that players were running around dribbling with one hand looking incompetent and unathletic?

Could it be those were just the "Zellers" of the league you saw?  Another thing, we all know how effective Alonzo mourning was right?  Just from clips alone I can tell Russell was on a different level than him.

But hey...if that's what yall need to tell yourselves, then ok

And speaking of David thompson...find me a guy today that is 6'4 and can touch the top of the backboard.

Something yall were talking about to guage Williams athleticism at 6'10
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 12:16:56 PM by Triplenickle »

Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1735 on: April 16, 2019, 01:18:09 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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he eclipses both time and space  :)

Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1736 on: April 16, 2019, 02:47:04 PM »

Offline Big333223

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So yall are saying 15 years before that players were running around dribbling with one hand looking incompetent and unathletic?

Could it be those were just the "Zellers" of the league you saw?

Just go on youtube and watch some video of Bob Cousy. Cousy was a league MVP and one of the greatest PG's of all time. They called him the Houdini of the Hardwood because his ballhandling ability was so far above everyone else's.

He could barely dribble with his left.

Some of the dribbling back then has to do with rule changes but there is lots and lots of video from the 60's where you can see that players are just not as good as they are today and it isn't close.

That doesn't take away from their greatness, mind you. It's just an acknowledgement that time passes and things change. Players today are building on what players from the 00's did just like those players were building on what the guys from the 80's did and so on.
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Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1737 on: April 16, 2019, 02:53:32 PM »

Online liam

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So yall are saying 15 years before that players were running around dribbling with one hand looking incompetent and unathletic?

Could it be those were just the "Zellers" of the league you saw?

Just go on youtube and watch some video of Bob Cousy. Cousy was a league MVP and one of the greatest PG's of all time. They called him the Houdini of the Hardwood because his ballhandling ability was so far above everyone else's.

He could barely dribble with his left.

Some of the dribbling back then has to do with rule changes but there is lots and lots of video from the 60's where you can see that players are just not as good as they are today and it isn't close.

That doesn't take away from their greatness, mind you. It's just an acknowledgement that time passes and things change. Players today are building on what players from the 00's did just like those players were building on what the guys from the 80's did and so on.

Cousy had to dribble with his hand on top of the ball.  If he could palm the ball the way current players are allowed to he would've been an even better ball handler.

Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1738 on: April 16, 2019, 02:55:09 PM »

Offline Big333223

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So yall are saying 15 years before that players were running around dribbling with one hand looking incompetent and unathletic?

Could it be those were just the "Zellers" of the league you saw?

Just go on youtube and watch some video of Bob Cousy. Cousy was a league MVP and one of the greatest PG's of all time. They called him the Houdini of the Hardwood because his ballhandling ability was so far above everyone else's.

He could barely dribble with his left.

Some of the dribbling back then has to do with rule changes but there is lots and lots of video from the 60's where you can see that players are just not as good as they are today and it isn't close.

That doesn't take away from their greatness, mind you. It's just an acknowledgement that time passes and things change. Players today are building on what players from the 00's did just like those players were building on what the guys from the 80's did and so on.

Cousy had to dribble with his hand on top of the ball.  If he could palm the ball the way current players are allowed to he would've been an even better ball handler.

I said in my post that some of the dribbling back then has to do with rule changes. That doesn't change the fact that the best ballhandler in the entire league rarely used his left hand.
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Re: Robert Williams (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1739 on: April 16, 2019, 03:22:34 PM »

Online liam

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So yall are saying 15 years before that players were running around dribbling with one hand looking incompetent and unathletic?

Could it be those were just the "Zellers" of the league you saw?

Just go on youtube and watch some video of Bob Cousy. Cousy was a league MVP and one of the greatest PG's of all time. They called him the Houdini of the Hardwood because his ballhandling ability was so far above everyone else's.

He could barely dribble with his left.

Some of the dribbling back then has to do with rule changes but there is lots and lots of video from the 60's where you can see that players are just not as good as they are today and it isn't close.

That doesn't take away from their greatness, mind you. It's just an acknowledgement that time passes and things change. Players today are building on what players from the 00's did just like those players were building on what the guys from the 80's did and so on.

Cousy had to dribble with his hand on top of the ball.  If he could palm the ball the way current players are allowed to he would've been an even better ball handler.

I said in my post that some of the dribbling back then has to do with rule changes. That doesn't change the fact that the best ballhandler in the entire league rarely used his left hand.

It's way easier to change hands when you are allowed to palm/ carry the ball. It's also easier to dibble with the off hand when constantly carrying the ball. Cousy is just flat dribbling the ball. I'm not sure if todays players could even dribble the ball up the court like that, with either hand...

 

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