Poll

Resign?

Re-sign him at a price over $14 mill. He does a lot for the team
20 (14.6%)
Too much money. The Limited offense isn't worth this much
117 (85.4%)

Total Members Voted: 137

Author Topic: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]  (Read 119994 times)

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Offline GreenEnvy

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Anything below 10M per is good with me, for however many years he wants.

If he wants the QO to test FA next year when there are seemingly more options available, that works as well.
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Offline Big333223

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can we re-sign him already! now that LeBron is out of the East, we need him more than ever!

We need Smart more because Lebron is gone?

We need him to help ensure that our odds increase for winning the East now that Lebron is gone. Smart is a better distributor and point guard than Rozier. He also is much better defensively than Rozier. They really need to bring him back (I bet BS agrees).

Our odds increased the moment Lebron left the East.

Smart's a better distributor than Rozier and I'll give you the defense because of his size and switchability, but Rozier is a plus defender and their advanced defensive stats are almost identical. Otherwise, Rozier's a better shooter everywhere on the floor, a better rebounder, and protects the ball much better than Smart who is a turnover machine. As a result, Rozier's Assist/Turnover ratio per 100 possessions is 2.9 to Smart's 2.0. Think Rozier has passed Smart, but I hope Smart comes back at the right price because I keep thinking his shot selection has to improve someday without any evidence that it will.

We need both of them at least for this year. Rozier is incapable of playing point. He is still have a poor court vision and not a very good off-ball defender. Not to mention he gets killed on switches and nullifies his defensive capabilities due to positional mismatch. We need Smart more than Rozier because he provides things that Rozier or any scoring guards cannot replace. Not to mention, we already have Kyrie, Tatum and Hayward for scoring load. He's a luxury at this point.

Rozier will be the starter if Irving leaves or gets traded. Smart's a big liability offensively despite the nonsense about him being a better PG. Smart was 441st in total shooting% and 471st in turnover% last season in the NBA. When you're that far down the list, most of the names below you play minimal minutes. As long as he doesn't shoot or put the ball on the floor he's great.

Smart is definitely a better PG than Rozier. It's not even close. Rozier is a good ballhandler but can't run an offense. The reason his turnovers are so low is because he's not looking to create for other guys, he only make the safe, rote pass within the system. Good creators tend to have high turnovers (unless they're freaks like Chris Paul and Rozier is not Chris Paul).

Rozier's 5.7 assists per game in the playoffs as the primary point guard that took his team to the ECF say hi. Oh, and his 4.75 to 1 assist to turnover ratio called and left a message.

By the way, Rozier's offensive rating of 115 in the playoffs dropped by earlier and would like you to call him back.

I already talked about why Rozier's TO's are so low. His offensive rating is in no way proof of PG skills.

His assists, I think, are a function of being the primary ballhandler in a system that uses a lot of off ball screens to get players open for spot up opportunities. Rozier is no playmaker but he can follow the system and pass to an open man.

In terms of actual pg skills like looking for teammates or knowing where to put the ball where they are most comfortable, Smart is a lot better than Rozier.
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Offline Birdman

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Wow big difference!! I also voted no..plenty of talent out there at cheaper price
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Offline Fafnir

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Pacers aren't out I don't think. Just unlikely given their other spending. Also the space they do have is I think within the range the C's would match. So they're less likely than ever to put out that offer sheet.

This is going to take a while, reminds me of the Glen Davis RFA season. (man the numbers are so wildly different though)

Offline fairweatherfan

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Agree with other folks - the most likely way this ends is with Marcus not getting the offers he wants from other teams or from us and taking the QO.  Which would be just fine for our purposes.

Offline Fafnir

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Agree with other folks - the most likely way this ends is with Marcus not getting the offers he wants from other teams or from us and taking the QO.  Which would be just fine for our purposes.
I do wonder if the C's are willing to offer 10-12 per year for 4 years. That would be around what he could potentially sign as an offer sheet given the other contracts given out.

Online The Oracle

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can we re-sign him already! now that LeBron is out of the East, we need him more than ever!

We need Smart more because Lebron is gone?

We need him to help ensure that our odds increase for winning the East now that Lebron is gone. Smart is a better distributor and point guard than Rozier. He also is much better defensively than Rozier. They really need to bring him back (I bet BS agrees).

Our odds increased the moment Lebron left the East.

Smart's a better distributor than Rozier and I'll give you the defense because of his size and switchability, but Rozier is a plus defender and their advanced defensive stats are almost identical. Otherwise, Rozier's a better shooter everywhere on the floor, a better rebounder, and protects the ball much better than Smart who is a turnover machine. As a result, Rozier's Assist/Turnover ratio per 100 possessions is 2.9 to Smart's 2.0. Think Rozier has passed Smart, but I hope Smart comes back at the right price because I keep thinking his shot selection has to improve someday without any evidence that it will.

We need both of them at least for this year. Rozier is incapable of playing point. He is still have a poor court vision and not a very good off-ball defender. Not to mention he gets killed on switches and nullifies his defensive capabilities due to positional mismatch. We need Smart more than Rozier because he provides things that Rozier or any scoring guards cannot replace. Not to mention, we already have Kyrie, Tatum and Hayward for scoring load. He's a luxury at this point.

Rozier will be the starter if Irving leaves or gets traded. Smart's a big liability offensively despite the nonsense about him being a better PG. Smart was 441st in total shooting% and 471st in turnover% last season in the NBA. When you're that far down the list, most of the names below you play minimal minutes. As long as he doesn't shoot or put the ball on the floor he's great.

Smart is definitely a better PG than Rozier. It's not even close. Rozier is a good ballhandler but can't run an offense. The reason his turnovers are so low is because he's not looking to create for other guys, he only make the safe, rote pass within the system. Good creators tend to have high turnovers (unless they're freaks like Chris Paul and Rozier is not Chris Paul).

Rozier's 5.7 assists per game in the playoffs as the primary point guard that took his team to the ECF say hi. Oh, and his 4.75 to 1 assist to turnover ratio called and left a message.

By the way, Rozier's offensive rating of 115 in the playoffs dropped by earlier and would like you to call him back.
Rozier's 5.7 assists aren't worth anything if he isn't creating better offense with the ball in his hands, same goes for his A/T ratio.  The C's created 105.8 points per 100 possessions in the playoffs with Rozier on the floor and 105.5 with Smart.  The defense was far better with Smart at 102.9 than Rozier 105.2 resulting in better Net rating with Smart +2.6 than Rozier +.6
The regular season numbers favored Smart even more where both the offense and defense were better with him on the floor than Rozier, Smart on 105.9, 99.4, +6.5 and Rozier on 104.0, 101.0, +3.0

The Celtics in the playoffs as a team turned the ball over the least among all players when Smart was on the floor 10.8%, Rozier on floor 11.7%.  The C's also had an A/T ratio higher with Smart on the floor than they did with Rozier 59.4-58.9

Having a high A/T ratio does not mean you are creating more/better offense.  Rozier being safe with the ball and not creating/inability to create high quality scoring opportunities actually hurts your offense. 

The 115 offensive rating you quote for Rozier is a bogus rating of Rozier's own boxscore statistics and has no bearing on reality.  People that continue to spew the nonsense that Smart kills the C's offense are wrong. 

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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can we re-sign him already! now that LeBron is out of the East, we need him more than ever!

We need Smart more because Lebron is gone?

We need him to help ensure that our odds increase for winning the East now that Lebron is gone. Smart is a better distributor and point guard than Rozier. He also is much better defensively than Rozier. They really need to bring him back (I bet BS agrees).

Our odds increased the moment Lebron left the East.

Smart's a better distributor than Rozier and I'll give you the defense because of his size and switchability, but Rozier is a plus defender and their advanced defensive stats are almost identical. Otherwise, Rozier's a better shooter everywhere on the floor, a better rebounder, and protects the ball much better than Smart who is a turnover machine. As a result, Rozier's Assist/Turnover ratio per 100 possessions is 2.9 to Smart's 2.0. Think Rozier has passed Smart, but I hope Smart comes back at the right price because I keep thinking his shot selection has to improve someday without any evidence that it will.

We need both of them at least for this year. Rozier is incapable of playing point. He is still have a poor court vision and not a very good off-ball defender. Not to mention he gets killed on switches and nullifies his defensive capabilities due to positional mismatch. We need Smart more than Rozier because he provides things that Rozier or any scoring guards cannot replace. Not to mention, we already have Kyrie, Tatum and Hayward for scoring load. He's a luxury at this point.

Rozier will be the starter if Irving leaves or gets traded. Smart's a big liability offensively despite the nonsense about him being a better PG. Smart was 441st in total shooting% and 471st in turnover% last season in the NBA. When you're that far down the list, most of the names below you play minimal minutes. As long as he doesn't shoot or put the ball on the floor he's great.

Smart is definitely a better PG than Rozier. It's not even close. Rozier is a good ballhandler but can't run an offense. The reason his turnovers are so low is because he's not looking to create for other guys, he only make the safe, rote pass within the system. Good creators tend to have high turnovers (unless they're freaks like Chris Paul and Rozier is not Chris Paul).

Rozier's 5.7 assists per game in the playoffs as the primary point guard that took his team to the ECF say hi. Oh, and his 4.75 to 1 assist to turnover ratio called and left a message.

By the way, Rozier's offensive rating of 115 in the playoffs dropped by earlier and would like you to call him back.
Rozier's 5.7 assists aren't worth anything if he isn't creating better offense with the ball in his hands, same goes for his A/T ratio.  The C's created 105.8 points per 100 possessions in the playoffs with Rozier on the floor and 105.5 with Smart.  The defense was far better with Smart at 102.9 than Rozier 105.2 resulting in better Net rating with Smart +2.6 than Rozier +.6
The regular season numbers favored Smart even more where both the offense and defense were better with him on the floor than Rozier, Smart on 105.9, 99.4, +6.5 and Rozier on 104.0, 101.0, +3.0

The Celtics in the playoffs as a team turned the ball over the least among all players when Smart was on the floor 10.8%, Rozier on floor 11.7%.  The C's also had an A/T ratio higher with Smart on the floor than they did with Rozier 59.4-58.9

Having a high A/T ratio does not mean you are creating more/better offense.  Rozier being safe with the ball and not creating/inability to create high quality scoring opportunities actually hurts your offense. 

The 115 offensive rating you quote for Rozier is a bogus rating of Rozier's own boxscore statistics and has no bearing on reality.  People that continue to spew the nonsense that Smart kills the C's offense are wrong.

Just to be clear, I'm not one to "spew the nonsense that Smart kills the C's offense."
 
I think Smart's advanced passing, even the ones that don't lead to assists, helps the motion of the offense greatly.

I was pointing out to the poster that, while Rozier runs a very basic offensive set and the assists he gets are mainly through the system, he was pretty good at running the point in the playoffs.

Offline PickNRoll

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There were plenty of games last year where the 1st unit wasn't executing and Smart came in and actually settled the OFFENSE down.  We got back to side-to-side motion, penetration, and doing things the Stevens way.  Smart may not be a good offensive player, but the stylistic differences between he and Kyrie/Rozier are important and Stevens uses it.

Offline dreamgreen

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Agree with other folks - the most likely way this ends is with Marcus not getting the offers he wants from other teams or from us and taking the QO.  Which would be just fine for our purposes.
I do wonder if the C's are willing to offer 10-12 per year for 4 years. That would be around what he could potentially sign as an offer sheet given the other contracts given out.

C's aren't paying him $10-12m a year, no way in hell!! Look I understand lot of you are Smart lovers but while wearing that hat can you all please be realistic at the same time? He's a combo guard that can't shoot and turns it over a lot. Sure he brings a lot on defense and other areas but come on pleaseeee!! He has MLE written all over him!

Offline Fafnir

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Agree with other folks - the most likely way this ends is with Marcus not getting the offers he wants from other teams or from us and taking the QO.  Which would be just fine for our purposes.
I do wonder if the C's are willing to offer 10-12 per year for 4 years. That would be around what he could potentially sign as an offer sheet given the other contracts given out.

C's aren't paying him $10-12m a year, no way in hell!! Look I understand lot of you are Smart lovers but while wearing that hat can you call please be realistic at the same time?He's a combo guard that can't shoot and turns it over a lot. Sure he brings a lot on defense and other areas but come on pleaseeee!! He has MLE written all over him!
MLE is 8.641 million

So its not so far off. I think Will Barton is a pretty solid comparison for his level of player.

Offline Big333223

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There were plenty of games last year where the 1st unit wasn't executing and Smart came in and actually settled the OFFENSE down.  We got back to side-to-side motion, penetration, and doing things the Stevens way.  Smart may not be a good offensive player, but the stylistic differences between he and Kyrie/Rozier are important and Stevens uses it.

I've been saying since his 2nd year, he's a born leader. He's not the most talented guy on the floor but when he talks people listen because they seem him put his body on the line night in and night out and always put the team first.

I really hope he stays for a long time.
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Offline ETNCeltics

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Smart will have an interesting decision if he gets, say, a $9m/year offer. If he takes the QO, he may run into the same thing next summer. There will be more teams with cap room, but there will also be a lot more guys chasing those $s.

Plus, he could get a serious injury and lose an entire year of salary. Or things could transpire that he gets far less minutes this year. Or he could have an even worse year shooting (just kidding, that's impossible).

Offline Celtics4ever

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I think Fred Van Fleet got what 9 million a year.   Fleet is a better shooter, Marcus has him in most other areas but I think that is his market area maybe a little less or a little more. But that should set up his value.   

Offline Vermont Green

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The Celtics can pay Smart about $8M before they hit the tax threshold.  Whether Smart is worth more or not is moot because I don't believe the Celtics are going to cross the tax cap to sign Smart.  If they go as high as $8M, they will be right up against the tax cap and would have very little flexibility for in-season moves.

Ojeleye and Nader are non-guaranteed (or partially guaranteed) so they can be used to free up a little more room under the tax cap if needed but there is not much money there with either contract (about $1.3M after guarantees).  It would be hardly worth it to release these guys for that kind of money.

A fair deal for Smart at this point might be 4 years, starting at $7.5M with an opt out after 2 seasons.  That would be a full contract in the range of $32M in case he got injured and an opt out at a point when salary cap will have gone up.