Simmons, Tatum, and Mitchell

[hpantazo]

The consensus top 3 candidates for ROY , Simmons, Tatum, and Mitchell, have each made the playoffs now in their rookie season! Is this unprecedented? At the very least, it kills the argument that Tatum should be ROY despite lesser production because he’s got a smaller role on a good team. Simmons’ Sixers have the #3 seed, despite Embiid our with a broken face, and Mitchell just lead the Jazz to the playoffs after they lost Hayward last summer

Tatum, even with Kyrie out, still has not had a 30+ scoring game

[gouki88]

Mostly irrelevant to the conversation, but in one of these garbage games I would love to see Tatum throw up 36 FGA in a single game.

It has been a pretty good rookie class though. Would like to see us bounce the 6ers in the playoffs, but with our injuries I find that quite unlikely

[celticsclay]

So the premise of this thread is that you think the overwhelming favorite to win rookie of the year should win and the guy we are all a fan of isnt as great as a few people think?

[ZoneD]

I love Tatum as much as anyone but to me he's clearly #3 in the ROY race. That doesn't take anything away from what Tatum has accomplished but Simmons and Mitchell are both above him in the rankings for a reason. All three look to have incredible futures but let's not get carried away.

[ChillyWilly]

Simmons is a generational talent I'm convinced of it. His game is so much like Lebron's it's uncanny. Seriously didn't see that coming as he appeared to be aloof and his jumper...what jumper. Yet he dominates games in so many ways he doesn't need it right now. If he ever does figure out that part of his game it's going to be next level scary.

Mitchell on the other hand has that Tyreke Evans feel. Big rookie year out of nowhere but back to earth as his career moves on. To me out the 3 is closest to his ceiling already and doubt we will see much growth beyond his amazing rookie season. By the way it has been an amazing rookie season for him no doubt.

Tatum I see something people are going to hate to see my type but his game feels very Anthony like on the offense end. Will be able to score from any angle any direction in multi of ways but he is without a doubt looking for his with tunnel vision. I think Brad's offense keeps him honest for now but in the future I suspect he will look to get his outside of the set offense.

Simmons hands down wins ROY and if all 3 have healthy careers will most likely be the one of the 3 who is the generational talent (ie. Kobe, Lebron, AD)

[Sophomore]

Tatum I see something people are going to hate to see my type but his game feels very Anthony like on the offense end. Will be able to score from any angle any direction in multi of ways but he is without a doubt looking for his with tunnel vision. I think Brad's offense keeps him honest for now but in the future I suspect he will look to get his outside of the set offense.

I guess we're going to find out, but I don't see the comparison, on several fronts.

For one thing, in his rookie year, JT is scoring more efficiently than Carmelo ever did at any point in his career. JT has a TS% of 59, which is borderline elite. Carmelo's career average is 54% - a hair under league average - and in his very best season was under 57%. This year he's at a putrid 50%.

One reason JT is more efficient is that he doesn't take a lot of bad, me-first shots. Carmelo has never, even in his rookie year, averaged fewer than 15 shot attempts/game. His career average is 19 FGA/game on a usage rate above 30%(!). Tatum is averaging 10 shots/game, on a usage rate just under 20. He's far from a black hole.

Maybe Tatum's annual numbers are lower because he was surrounded for most of the year by vets and deferred. A bit. But even when the vets went out with injuries in March, his usage only went up to 23% - and we hear people clamoring for him to take more shots because his efficiency hasn't suffered. All this tells me he has much better judgment about when to shoot, and may even be a little gun shy. I see nothing that tells me he won't accept coaching.

Maybe your main point is that he'll never become a great playmaker. That's harder to quantify. We'll see; he wasn't asked to do much in that area at the start of the year. But I've seen increasing evidence that as they're unlocking him in the pick and roll and getting more touches he's starting to make plays. I've seen some very nice passes over the past month.

The last thing is that comparing a player to Carmelo raises the specter of selfish play and no-defense. Even if you didn't intend this, that's in the package. I just don't see anything in Tatum that looks that way.

[hpantazo]

So the premise of this thread is that you think the overwhelming favorite to win rookie of the year should win and the guy we are all a fan of isnt as great as a few people think?

No, the premise is that I’m quite honestly surprised that all three of the top ROY candidates are key players on playoff teams. This is amazing and it’s quite an exceptional rookie class

Guys like Markannen, Ball, DSJ, Jason Collins and Dearron Fox most years would be in the conversation for the award. Not this year

Brogdon would have never even been mentioned for the award if this was his rookie class

[hpantazo]

Simmons is a generational talent I'm convinced of it. His game is so much like Lebron's it's uncanny. Seriously didn't see that coming as he appeared to be aloof and his jumper...what jumper. Yet he dominates games in so many ways he doesn't need it right now. If he ever does figure out that part of his game it's going to be next level scary.

Mitchell on the other hand has that Tyreke Evans feel. Big rookie year out of nowhere but back to earth as his career moves on. To me out the 3 is closest to his ceiling already and doubt we will see much growth beyond his amazing rookie season. By the way it has been an amazing rookie season for him no doubt.

Tatum I see something people are going to hate to see my type but his game feels very Anthony like on the offense end. Will be able to score from any angle any direction in multi of ways but he is without a doubt looking for his with tunnel vision. I think Brad's offense keeps him honest for now but in the future I suspect he will look to get his outside of the set offense.

Simmons hands down wins ROY and if all 3 have healthy careers will most likely be the one of the 3 who is the generational talent (ie. Kobe, Lebron, AD)

Tyreke though put up good numbers on a bad team and had no outside shot. Mitchell has been the go to scorer for a playoff teamand can already shoot the three. That’s a big difference

[konkmv]

 It is fun to watch all these ROY topics
.. everyone is saying his mind but the only truth is that none Celtics fan would prefer Simmons or Mitchell than Tatum... the kid got what we need... humble, work ethic , plays both defence and is a great offensive weapon already... long will grow more... we need him and Brown to contribute now as 3rd and 4th options and then after 3 years take over... with kyrie Simmons would play out of position and Hayward leaving jazz gave Mitchell an opportunity... Tatum is a better match for us... more upside to be a complete player at both ends... Brown Hayward Tatum would be fun to watch... form 2 to 4 constant opportunities to mix things for Stevens... a defensive nightmare for any coach

[Moranis]

It is fun to watch all these ROY topics
.. everyone is saying his mind but the only truth is that none Celtics fan would prefer Simmons or Mitchell than Tatum... the kid got what we need... humble, work ethic , plays both defence and is a great offensive weapon already... long will grow more... we need him and Brown to contribute now as 3rd and 4th options and then after 3 years take over... with kyrie Simmons would play out of position and Hayward leaving jazz gave Mitchell an opportunity... Tatum is a better match for us... more upside to be a complete player at both ends... Brown Hayward Tatum would be fun to watch... form 2 to 4 constant opportunities to mix things for Stevens... a defensive nightmare for any coach

what are you talking about, I absolutely would take Simmons over Tatum and wouldn't give it a second thought.

[gift]

Mitchell on the other hand has that Tyreke Evans feel. Big rookie year out of nowhere but back to earth as his career moves on. To me out the 3 is closest to his ceiling already and doubt we will see much growth beyond his amazing rookie season. By the way it has been an amazing rookie season for him no doubt.

Tatum I see something people are going to hate to see my type but his game feels very Anthony like on the offense end. Will be able to score from any angle any direction in multi of ways but he is without a doubt looking for his with tunnel vision. I think Brad's offense keeps him honest for now but in the future I suspect he will look to get his outside of the set offense.

This is why it's so important that Brad develops good habits for Tatum over the first few years of his career. So far so good.

Somewhat agree on Mitchell. Not that he has the same game as Tyreke, but his career could mirror Tyreke's a bit. As for producing on a winning team, Utah wins by their defense (to which Mitchell is a great contributor). But I still don't see superstar on the offensive side of the ball with Mitchell. Not sure you can expand his role even further to take Utah to the next level offensively without losing efficiency to the point that it hurts the team. If this is the case, then Utah needs additional offensive weapons to help out, which probably diminish Mitchell's offensive usage going forward. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it right now.

[Vermont Green]

Keep in mind that:

     Simmons     21 years 7 months
     Mitchell       21 years 4 months
     Tatum         20 years 1 month

To me, Simmons is in a class of his own, even if the year and a half of additional maturity over Tatum is figured in.  I think Tatum probably will be better than Mitchell.  You never know how a player is going to develop but look how much each year of maturity mattered to Brown and Bradley as they developed.  Avery was actually mature athletically but not emotionally.  Tatum is just the opposite.  He needs to add strength and some bulk.  Brown was different too in that he was fine athletically and seemed very mature emotionally (even more so than Tatum) but he had to develop touch and skill.

Everyone develops differently.  It will be interesting to see where Simmons goes from here.  He is a pretty complete package already but you expect his shooting to improve or range to be extended.

[konkmv]

I do not like Simmons... bad defender no 3p shot

[konkmv]

Simmons need a 3 shooters around him..

[PhoSita]

Tatum I see something people are going to hate to see my type but his game feels very Anthony like on the offense end. Will be able to score from any angle any direction in multi of ways but he is without a doubt looking for his with tunnel vision. I think Brad's offense keeps him honest for now but in the future I suspect he will look to get his outside of the set offense.

Tatum doesn't play anything like Melo.

More comparable to Tobias Harris or Otto Porter, but much better out of the gate than either of those guys.