Horford

[Roy H.]

Horford (IMO) is a high quality player, but not a max player.  Therefore, Danny has given one of his precious maxes to the wrong guy.  The impact may not be that great in the long run (especially if Brown and Tatum to continue to outplay their salary numbers), and I doubt Hayward signs here if not for the way the C's looked last season (Horford a big reason).

As you say, no Horford means no Hayward. It possibly means no Kyrie.  It probably means no elite defensive / passing big man.

So, was he the “wrong guy”? Who could we have signed to replace him that would conceivably have us in a better position?

[Androslav]

Horford (IMO) is a high quality player, but not a max player.  Therefore, Danny has given one of his precious maxes to the wrong guy.  The impact may not be that great in the long run (especially if Brown and Tatum to continue to outplay their salary numbers), and I doubt Hayward signs here if not for the way the C's looked last season (Horford a big reason).

As you say, no Horford means no Hayward. It possibly means no Kyrie.  It probably means no elite defensive / passing big man.

So, was he the “wrong guy”? Who could we have signed to replace him that would conceivably have us in a better position?

Exactly my thoughts Roy.

@Neurotic Guy & other nonbelievers
How can you be unsatisfied with watching an Allstar play, while also attracting other Allstars to come and join your team?
Would you rather have us at 48 wins?
Would you have rather signed a mediocre player for what you deed as reasonable salary?
Why you ignore the true respect that Al invokes in his teammates, coaches, and opponents? Do you think they are all wrong or are just faking it?
Is Danny Ainge delusional to be happy about Big Al acquisition?
Would you have rather signed Biyombo or similar big for less money, if not, who was your man that we missed in the summer of 2016?
We are missing our 2nd best player whole year, count that in, please.

If you are so dissatisfied with Horford (and his "poor" 13-7-5 line in ratio with his 30m salary),
how come I never see some ecstatic T-Roz thread backed up by the same logic where he extremely outplayed his money - scoring more than 2 ppg per mil of salary).

Some people just want cones with inflated stats - rather than real unselfish professors. Characters that know how to play but also know how to make everybody else better. It is easy to discredit something while not offering any alternative route. Sadly Horford signing won't be appreciated enough on CB, until he wins the chip.

[Celtics4ever]

We had to overpay  Al to get him to come here.   We are now looked a viable location for Free Agents something that was not always true in the past.

[Erik]

Let’s also be honest... our true window of title contention probably starts after Horford comes off the books and we go into luxury tax.

[Androslav]

Let’s also be honest... our true window of title contention probably starts after Horford comes off the books and we go into luxury tax.

Perhaps.
But I still didn't count us for this year. I'll stay awake and cheer for the best.
My current personal favorite would go something like this.

1) We beat LBJ, send him out of Cleveland once more after 8 years
2) We beat Toronto's best team ever and advance to the finals
3) Houston does beat the GSW, unbelievable!
4) We beat Houston in 6. CPs small and battered body didn't hold on for 4 straight playoff series. After that, it was the regular D'Antoni one trick pony playoff defeat.

Horford is still on the roster. Let's keep believing.
Feet are still under the table.

[Snakehead]

Horford has been really bad since the All Star Break. Just was bad down the stretch missing several times and losing the ball and not getting a TO

If you're asleep every time the Celtics are on defense, sure.

If you guys want to criticize Al on offense the last few games I'm here for that but pay attention to defense for once in your life.  You watch the best defensive team in the NBA.

He has been bad offensively. Better?

Yes, way better.  As I often say around here, it's half the game.  People need to stop forgetting that.

[Snakehead]

Horford (IMO) is a high quality player, but not a max player.  Therefore, Danny has given one of his precious maxes to the wrong guy.  The impact may not be that great in the long run (especially if Brown and Tatum to continue to outplay their salary numbers), and I doubt Hayward signs here if not for the way the C's looked last season (Horford a big reason).

You make the points that need to be made already, in addition he is one of the best defenders in the league and he is one of the best screeners/passers in the league as a big, which makes Kyrie a lot better (and would make Hayward better as well, another guy who can run pick and roll).  A big man who can shoot threes also provides spacing that is easy to overlook.

By the time Horford's salary is actually an issue he maybe can be moved.  I don't even want to stress that or think on it much because he's been great this year.

[Snakehead]

I'm also gonna throw out some observations from the recent Celtics post all star: I think they are trying to maintain spacing by actually putting Al out on the perimeter more vs screening.  I would like to see how the stats back that reading up but to my eye it is the case.  It makes sense, as Al can space to three and then a guy like Baynes can't, so if he's the screen man total spacing can be maintained on the play.  To me at many times it seems this is the thinking, especially with Baynes in, and the offense with him in seems to be much better.

[kozlodoev]

Horford (IMO) is a high quality player, but not a max player.  Therefore, Danny has given one of his precious maxes to the wrong guy.  The impact may not be that great in the long run (especially if Brown and Tatum to continue to outplay their salary numbers), and I doubt Hayward signs here if not for the way the C's looked last season (Horford a big reason).

As you say, no Horford means no Hayward. It possibly means no Kyrie.  It probably means no elite defensive / passing big man.

So, was he the “wrong guy”? Who could we have signed to replace him that would conceivably have us in a better position?

Well, yes, Hayward is another max contract to another wrong guy, but that's a different conversation altogether. The no Horford -> no Hayward -> no Irving narrative is only compelling if you're flat out assuming we weren't going to spend that max slot at all otherwise.

Horford has been around for years, and no-one has really ever considered him a max player. I mean, the guy got extended for $12 million per in 2011 -- on the tail end of two consecutive allstar appearances and in a contract that was going to cover the entirety of his prime. Some crazy things happened with that gigantic cap jump and Horford was one of them.

[Moranis]

Horford (IMO) is a high quality player, but not a max player.  Therefore, Danny has given one of his precious maxes to the wrong guy.  The impact may not be that great in the long run (especially if Brown and Tatum to continue to outplay their salary numbers), and I doubt Hayward signs here if not for the way the C's looked last season (Horford a big reason).

As you say, no Horford means no Hayward. It possibly means no Kyrie.  It probably means no elite defensive / passing big man.

So, was he the “wrong guy”? Who could we have signed to replace him that would conceivably have us in a better position?

without Horford, I think Boston trades for Paul George last summer and then still lands Hayward in free agency.  Or maybe Danny would have pulled the trigger on Cousins last season because he still would have had room for a max level free agent in that scenario (and then still signs Hayward).  Might even have enough left to still acquire Irving in those scenarios. 

So many variables that anything could have happened.  Maybe Boston is the clear favorite in the East this year had things worked out differently, or maybe it isn't even a playoff team.  Who knows, but because of those variables this is a pretty silly exercise.  That said, Horford is absolutely over paid and his salary very easily could push Boston into the luxury tax next year and that is not the place Boston should be at this point in the team construction.

[HomerSapien]

Horford (IMO) is a high quality player, but not a max player.  Therefore, Danny has given one of his precious maxes to the wrong guy.  The impact may not be that great in the long run (especially if Brown and Tatum to continue to outplay their salary numbers), and I doubt Hayward signs here if not for the way the C's looked last season (Horford a big reason).

As you say, no Horford means no Hayward. It possibly means no Kyrie.  It probably means no elite defensive / passing big man.

So, was he the “wrong guy”? Who could we have signed to replace him that would conceivably have us in a better position?

Well, yes, Hayward is another max contract to another wrong guy, but that's a different conversation altogether. The no Horford -> no Hayward -> no Irving narrative is only compelling if you're flat out assuming we weren't going to spend that max slot at all otherwise.

Horford has been around for years, and no-one has really ever considered him a max player. I mean, the guy got extended for $12 million per in 2011 -- on the tail end of two consecutive allstar appearances and in a contract that was going to cover the entirety of his prime. Some crazy things happened with that gigantic cap jump and Horford was one of them.

From what I can tell he got the 2nd largest contract extension in his draft class (Kevin Durant was #1).  $12M meant something a lot different in 2011.

[kozlodoev]

Horford (IMO) is a high quality player, but not a max player.  Therefore, Danny has given one of his precious maxes to the wrong guy.  The impact may not be that great in the long run (especially if Brown and Tatum to continue to outplay their salary numbers), and I doubt Hayward signs here if not for the way the C's looked last season (Horford a big reason).

As you say, no Horford means no Hayward. It possibly means no Kyrie.  It probably means no elite defensive / passing big man.

So, was he the “wrong guy”? Who could we have signed to replace him that would conceivably have us in a better position?

Well, yes, Hayward is another max contract to another wrong guy, but that's a different conversation altogether. The no Horford -> no Hayward -> no Irving narrative is only compelling if you're flat out assuming we weren't going to spend that max slot at all otherwise.

Horford has been around for years, and no-one has really ever considered him a max player. I mean, the guy got extended for $12 million per in 2011 -- on the tail end of two consecutive allstar appearances and in a contract that was going to cover the entirety of his prime. Some crazy things happened with that gigantic cap jump and Horford was one of them.

From what I can tell he got the 2nd largest contract extension in his draft class (Kevin Durant was #1).  $12M meant something a lot different in 2011.

Nicely framed. Except there are a couple of things to consider:

(1) Durant, a true max player, got extended for $15.5 million starting, with annual raises. Horford got extended for for $12 million flat.
(2) There aren't really many players in that draft class that are as good as Al Horford. That doesn't make Horford a max player, though.

The bottom line is, Horford got a $60 million extension (over 5 years) at a point in time when the max extension was $85 million (Durant got that). I think that nicely summarizes the difference between "max contract good" and "Al Horford good".

[KGs Knee]

Horford is paid what he is worth, and what the market dictated a player of his immense value should be paid.

I really cannot believe we are still having this discussion in yet another thread, when it's been proven time and time again he is absolutely worth what he got paid.

But keep beating the broken "overpaid" drum, it's good humor.

[kozlodoev]

Horford is paid what he is worth, and what the market dictated a player of his immense value should be paid.

I really cannot believe we are still having this discussion in yet another thread, when it's been proven time and time again he is absolutely worth what he got paid.

But keep beating the broken "overpaid" drum, it's good humor.

Horford got paid what he had to be paid. Unfortunately, NBA free agency for above average players is not really a competitive market, so players often have a considerable degree of market power.

[Rondo9]

Let’s also be honest... our true window of title contention probably starts after Horford comes off the books and we go into luxury tax.

Without Horford, no way the Celtics wouldn't get where they were right now.