Brendan Haywood Above the Rim Rankings of Young players in Celtics v. Lakers

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I'd flip flop Tatum & Brown and probably also flip flop Kuzma & Ball.

1) Tatum
2) Brown
3) Ingram
4) Ball
5) Kuzma
6) Smart

Ball is the wild card here.  He really could be anywhere from 2-5, IMO.

Yep, this.

I'm surprised there are still people liking Brown over Tatum. I think Tatum just has all of the tools needed to make him a two-way star in this league in the mold of PP.

I think it's because Brown is the flashier player, which usually gets more attention/hype in this day and age. Everyone knows that Pierce is a HOFer, yet he still flew under the radar compared to guys like Kobe. I can see the same thing happening with Brown and Tatum.

[A Future of Stevens]

as prospects going forward it would be hard not to have Ball #1.  Smart and Kuzma are clearly the bottom 2.  I still have no idea what to make of Ingram, but thus far haven't seen enough to put him above 4.  I'd put Tatum 2 and Brown 3.

I have seen absolutely nothing from Ball so far this season or in preseason or summer league to suggest he is a better prospect than any of the other players in that list. None.

Ball is shooting terribly, absolutely no question about that, but he is very active everywhere else.  He has a very strong assist to turnover ratio, he is getting to the boards very well, he is generating steals, etc.  Once he gets his shooting up to a more reasonable percentage (he was a very strong shooter at UCLA), his points will go up a great deal and you will have a huge PG averaging in the 15/7/7 range as a rookie.  PG's and C's are the two positions that are the hardest transitions to the pros.  No question Tatum and Brown have both played far better than Ball this year, but I'd still rate Ball as a higher end long term prospect.

I watched the show.

He wasn't rating them on how they will be as prospects.

He was rating them on how they were playing currently. Thus why he ranked Kuzma as highly as he did.

Rating them as prospects is a completely different discussion.

Oops. My bad. I could of sworn it was based on the player as a whole. My bad guys. Either way good catch Footey.

[wayupnorth]

as prospects going forward it would be hard not to have Ball #1.  Smart and Kuzma are clearly the bottom 2.  I still have no idea what to make of Ingram, but thus far haven't seen enough to put him above 4.  I'd put Tatum 2 and Brown 3.

How is it hard not to have Ball?

I completely disagree with that statment.

[kozlodoev]

I'd flip flop Tatum & Brown and probably also flip flop Kuzma & Ball.

1) Tatum
2) Brown
3) Ingram
4) Ball
5) Kuzma
6) Smart

Ball is the wild card here.  He really could be anywhere from 2-5, IMO.

Yep, this.

I'm surprised there are still people liking Brown over Tatum. I think Tatum just has all of the tools needed to make him a two-way star in this league in the mold of PP.

I think it's because Brown is the flashier player, which usually gets more attention/hype in this day and age. Everyone knows that Pierce is a HOFer, yet he still flew under the radar compared to guys like Kobe. I can see the same thing happening with Brown and Tatum.

Well it's either the flashiness, or the fact that Kobe won 5 championships and 2 NBA scoring titles. Hmmmm....

[Roy H.]

I'd flip flop Tatum & Brown and probably also flip flop Kuzma & Ball.

1) Tatum
2) Brown
3) Ingram
4) Ball
5) Kuzma
6) Smart

Ball is the wild card here.  He really could be anywhere from 2-5, IMO.

Agreed, although Ingram is another wild card. He could easily surpass Brown, or level off at a Rodney Hood level.

[Csfan1984]

Tatum
Brown
Ingram
Smart
Rozier
Kuz
Ball

[greg683x]

as prospects going forward it would be hard not to have Ball #1.  Smart and Kuzma are clearly the bottom 2.  I still have no idea what to make of Ingram, but thus far haven't seen enough to put him above 4.  I'd put Tatum 2 and Brown 3.

I have seen absolutely nothing from Ball so far this season or in preseason or summer league to suggest he is a better prospect than any of the other players in that list. None.

Ball is shooting terribly, absolutely no question about that, but he is very active everywhere else.  He has a very strong assist to turnover ratio, he is getting to the boards very well, he is generating steals, etc.  Once IF he gets his shooting up to a more reasonable percentage (he was a very strong shooter at UCLA), his points will go up a great deal and you will have a huge PG averaging in the 15/7/7 range as a rookie.  PG's and C's are the two positions that are the hardest transitions to the pros.  No question Tatum and Brown have both played far better than Ball this year, but I'd still rate Ball as a higher end long term prospect.

fixed that for you.
 
Right now, his ceiling looks like Playoff Rondo until he can do something about his shooting.  While I love Playoff Rondo, I'd take Tatum and Brown over him without hesitation. 

What I found interesting was that Randle didn't make that list.  Even with all the people bemoaning us taking Smart over Randle in the draft and glorifying Randle's offense/rebounding,  I find it interesting that a national pundit feels Smart is still the better player.  Personally I agree but good to see someone without green glasses seeing the same thing.

Playoff Rondo was a good defender, from what I’ve read/seen Lonzo doesn’t play defense

But I get the Rondo comparison none the less.  I just don’t see him having that Rondo grit in the biggest momnets

[mmmmm]

as prospects going forward it would be hard not to have Ball #1.  Smart and Kuzma are clearly the bottom 2.  I still have no idea what to make of Ingram, but thus far haven't seen enough to put him above 4.  I'd put Tatum 2 and Brown 3.

I have seen absolutely nothing from Ball so far this season or in preseason or summer league to suggest he is a better prospect than any of the other players in that list. None.

Ball is shooting terribly, absolutely no question about that, but he is very active everywhere else.  He has a very strong assist to turnover ratio, he is getting to the boards very well, he is generating steals, etc.  Once he gets his shooting up to a more reasonable percentage (he was a very strong shooter at UCLA), his points will go up a great deal and you will have a huge PG averaging in the 15/7/7 range as a rookie.  PG's and C's are the two positions that are the hardest transitions to the pros.  No question Tatum and Brown have both played far better than Ball this year, but I'd still rate Ball as a higher end long term prospect.

Except unless he changes that funky shot of his, he'll never shoot a significantly higher percentage. That shot movement is just not conducive to consistency.

except he has consistently shot at a high level at every level even with that shot technique.  You don't go from a 55/41 shooter to a 30/23 shooter overnight.  I'm sure he won't shoot as well in the NBA as he did at UCLA, but he won't be this bad either.  PG is the hardest position to transition to at the professional level and it is even harder for someone in Ball's position on such a visible team, with a visible father, and an organization that has dubbed you the next Magic Johnson.  There is a lot of pressure on Lonzo.  He will start to get more comfortable and he will shoot better.

He shot at a high level based on being wide open.   He still hits wide-open threes (no defender within 6 feet, such as in transition) at a decent 35% clip.

The problem is that he's predictably sucking with a player within 6 feet of him.  Here are his nearest defender 3PT metrics:

nearest
defender
distance    3PA    3PT%
0..2 ft     0       0.0%
2..4 ft     6      16.7%
4..6 ft    20      16.0%
6+  ft     20      35.0%

Granted, these are a small sample size (they don't include this last game) but they are indicative of something that is plain to the eye test.

Because his shooting form involves a slow wind-up of bringing the ball out across the front of his body and way back to his left ear, he has tremendous difficulty getting his shot off when forced to dribble to his right.

This was very apparent in the game last night.  Watch how NBA defenders guard him.

Until (unless) he fixes this, he's always going to have trouble getting that shot off in the NBA.

If he's willing to put in the work, it's fixable.  But may take a while.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I'd flip flop Tatum & Brown and probably also flip flop Kuzma & Ball.

1) Tatum
2) Brown
3) Ingram
4) Ball
5) Kuzma
6) Smart

Ball is the wild card here.  He really could be anywhere from 2-5, IMO.

Yep, this.

I'm surprised there are still people liking Brown over Tatum. I think Tatum just has all of the tools needed to make him a two-way star in this league in the mold of PP.

I think it's because Brown is the flashier player, which usually gets more attention/hype in this day and age. Everyone knows that Pierce is a HOFer, yet he still flew under the radar compared to guys like Kobe. I can see the same thing happening with Brown and Tatum.

Well it's either the flashiness, or the fact that Kobe won 5 championships and 2 NBA scoring titles. Hmmmm....

Well, Kobe had a bit more help over the course of his career than Pierce, and was a ballhog, but I digress.

[mmmmm]

as prospects going forward it would be hard not to have Ball #1.  Smart and Kuzma are clearly the bottom 2.  I still have no idea what to make of Ingram, but thus far haven't seen enough to put him above 4.  I'd put Tatum 2 and Brown 3.

I have seen absolutely nothing from Ball so far this season or in preseason or summer league to suggest he is a better prospect than any of the other players in that list. None.

Ball is shooting terribly, absolutely no question about that, but he is very active everywhere else.  He has a very strong assist to turnover ratio, he is getting to the boards very well, he is generating steals, etc.  Once IF he gets his shooting up to a more reasonable percentage (he was a very strong shooter at UCLA), his points will go up a great deal and you will have a huge PG averaging in the 15/7/7 range as a rookie.  PG's and C's are the two positions that are the hardest transitions to the pros.  No question Tatum and Brown have both played far better than Ball this year, but I'd still rate Ball as a higher end long term prospect.

fixed that for you.
 
Right now, his ceiling looks like Playoff Rondo until he can do something about his shooting.  While I love Playoff Rondo, I'd take Tatum and Brown over him without hesitation. 

What I found interesting was that Randle didn't make that list.  Even with all the people bemoaning us taking Smart over Randle in the draft and glorifying Randle's offense/rebounding,  I find it interesting that a national pundit feels Smart is still the better player.  Personally I agree but good to see someone without green glasses seeing the same thing.

Playoff Rondo was a good defender, from what I’ve read/seen Lonzo doesn’t play defense

But I get the Rondo comparison none the less.  I just don’t see him having that Rondo grit in the biggest momnets

Ick.  I hate the Rondo comparisons.   The only resemblance I see between Lonzo Ball and Rondo is that they both play PG and they both are pretty good passers.  Otherwise, they are stylistically extremely different players.

Rondo had an elite dribble with either hand and could explode left or right and his game was predicated on reading/penetrating the defense and either going to the hoop or kicking the ball out to an open shooter, depending on how the defense would react to his action.

Ball does not have an explosive first step, is asymmetric (does not like to go to his right), does not drive to the hoop unless it is wide open (such as in transition) and his passing is generally from the perimeter.   He almost never tries to penetrate from the half-court set with his dribble.   He does have excellent court vision and because of his height is able to make plays from the perimeter and of course, he's great at improvising quickly in transition plays.

Ball may end up being a great player.  Maybe even better than Rondo's career.  Who knows?   But stylistically, he is very, very different.

[Celtics4ever]

One thing I noticed about Ball is that he does not have the speed to drive past guards.   I only saw him do this a few times, most of the time he did not even try so he knows this, too.  He is slow on D, slow on the first step.  The best drive I saw was on a switch where he beat Baynes to the hole.

His shot is awful, good college player, gifted passer but Daddy's Big Mouth can't get him any further now, he needs to play at a high level.

Right now, his ceiling looks like Playoff Rondo

This is more than generous.  He is not even the best guard in this draft.  Fox, Mitchell and Smith Jr. are better than him.  Bogdanovic and Monk are ahead of him, too.

https://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/avgPoints/position/rookies

The hype fest is over.  He makes Marcus look like a deadeye shooter with his 29.5% FG and  23% 3p, he has even been bad at FT at 54%.  Yes, he has room to grow.   But he needs to totally rebuild his shot.   

[droopdog7]

My rankings are:

1. Tatum
2. Ingram
3. Brown
4. Ball
5. Kuzma
6. Smart

[Erik]

I was high on Ball during draft time, and I was very mistaken.

Ball looks like one of those chuckers at a local gym pickup game who just stands around on defense and chucks on offense. He's lost, awkward, clumsy, unenthusiastic, and his shot is so bad he makes Marcus Smart look like Klay Thompson. He's not even a bust in the sense that he'll never be a star... he'll be playing in China near his brother in a few years.

Please do not continue this nonsense and put him anywhere near hardworking young players on this list.

[Somebody]

Surprising that people see Brown as 1, I do too and I think Brown has a mix of Dominique/Drexler as his ceiling.

[hwangjini_1]

as prospects going forward it would be hard not to have Ball #1.  Smart and Kuzma are clearly the bottom 2.  I still have no idea what to make of Ingram, but thus far haven't seen enough to put him above 4.  I'd put Tatum 2 and Brown 3.

I have seen absolutely nothing from Ball so far this season or in preseason or summer league to suggest he is a better prospect than any of the other players in that list. None.

Ball is shooting terribly, absolutely no question about that, but he is very active everywhere else.  He has a very strong assist to turnover ratio, he is getting to the boards very well, he is generating steals, etc.  Once he gets his shooting up to a more reasonable percentage (he was a very strong shooter at UCLA), his points will go up a great deal and you will have a huge PG averaging in the 15/7/7 range as a rookie.  PG's and C's are the two positions that are the hardest transitions to the pros.  No question Tatum and Brown have both played far better than Ball this year, but I'd still rate Ball as a higher end long term prospect.

Except unless he changes that funky shot of his, he'll never shoot a significantly higher percentage. That shot movement is just not conducive to consistency.

Add also that is a miserable one on one defender. Plus, in the half court game he cannot create his own shot reliably.

His shooting form is awful and requires a total rebuild. When pressured while shooting he is pretty bad as well. Oh, and he has a slow release. That is a LOT of work needed with no guantee of success.

I just don’t see a very good nba player. I see a player with one or two very good skills and mediocre to poor elsewhere.

But, it early on so let’s wait and see.